Where do you want a BCA National Meet

[38Buick 80C]

How bout a quick informal poll /question.

Where do you want a BCA National Meet?

Two things:

1. Of course I am sure most people will say they want it near their location (as would I)

2. How bout ideas for locations that have not hosted a National meet in over 10 years. You can see the entire list of NAtional meet location and years at Buick Club National Meets

My Top Five would be

1. Charlotte, NC (it's home)

2. New York City Metro Area

3. Vegas

4. Miami

5. San Diego

Bonus: New Orleans

I know what some will say

1. Vegas in July it's like 117 in the shade. The Cadillac LaSalle Club had their Grand National there in 2009 and it was entirely indoors.

2. Miami and New Orleans in July with like 120% humidity, but hey it's before hurricane season.

[pphil]

i would like it to be in nashville tn but i am biased as i live there

knoxville ,memphis ,accually memphis would be nice (good food if it was held close to one of the casinos there would be rooms and plenty of parking...

but i am not a member and would only be a spectator

i did go to the 100 in flint as a spectator

it was quite impressive

scott

[Mark Shaw]

I would like to see it alternate every year around the country (I am told the Aussies do this). I have only attended two BCA Nationals on the West coast; Sacramento CA & Bellevue WA. I have already suggested that my local chapter host one in Portland OR or Vancouver, WA, but they feel they do not have enough active members to do it comfortably.

[Guest my3buicks]

I would like to see it wherever there is a chapter that can handle the massive amount of work it takes to do one - and not in an area just to have one there. If it is not spearheaded by a group that really wants to do it, it will reflect it.

It has always been the mid to eastern side of the country that has usually stepped up to the plate to host a national, in a perfect world it could go back and forth, but there just never has been the interest from the west coast chapters as a whole to step up to the plate regularly.

The central to eastern nationals historically draw a much larger number of cars and participants also.

I have never been opposed to the dual national idea that some had either, a west coast one and an east coast one. Smaller in scale so easier for chapters to handle.

I also like to see nationals in less "touristy" and high priced area's - the price of going to a national meet has reached the point of being impossible to attend by many. Sorry, nationals are great to go to, but I don't want to bowl the summer budget on one meet - there are other clubs that most of us participate in, along with regular vacations, etc.

Keep the nationals much more laid back and simple and family friendly like they used to be.

[JohnD1956]

Some of the towns along Route 66 might be interesting. Or Chicago, Il. Chattanooga, TN. even Dayton, Ohio, near the air musuem.

Of course I say this, but chances are I couldn't afford to make all these trips.

[38Buick 80C]

Nashville and Memphis sound good. So does Portland; I enjoyed Seattle and we had a great turn out of cars.

I like the idea of a set rotation schedule of the National to each Region and the chapters within the region figure out where the meet will be. We do that with the SE Regional Tour. There is a set rotation and each chapter knows they have to step up and run the tour once every 8 years. It works wells and no chapter ever flounders and it guarantees a major BCA event near our members in the region every so often.

Agreed the chapter would have to want to host it. The BCA does not force chapters (or Regions) to host National Meets.

Just so there is no confusion my point in the post is in an ideal world where do you want it. You know, just for FUN. Hence New Orleans as one of my choices, we have no chapter there so a National meet there is highly unlikely in the foreseeable future.

[Guest my3buicks]

If we are going by fantasy, then Costa Rica;)

[38Buick 80C]

Now we are talking.... OK I have to add Atlantis on Paradise island in the Bahamas.... Now we just need to get that bridge built so we can drive our Buicks not ship them!!

[NTX5467]

Keith's last two paragraphics have some good comments.

The "dual national" idea seems to work for some organizations, but if the BCA will be the main operating group, then it would mean doing the same thing about a month apart in two different locales. In our situation, I suspect it would cause members to lose their focus on the main club event of the year if they didn't make it to one national, planning on making the other one, and missed them both. Two smaller events might be more manageable and doable for local operatives (if they were still involved), but it might make them more like big regionals than a full-national event as we're used to.

I would still like to see a BCA National in the Los Angeles area, but I understand that might not be possible in existing BCA date orientations. The LA area is also "a destination", but going north to San Sylmar, for example, might be far enough away to get better lodging rates and close enough for "day tours" to LA-area automotive attractions. Or possibly other museums north of there?

Of the choices listed, I might like Las Vegas (providing that costs were not too high--lodging and meet registration costs) or San Diego. San Diego might be more iffy, but probably no more iffy than Seattle might have been (each is basically at one corner of the nation). Miami would similarly be at one corner of the nation, too. New Orleans (before "season") would be too far south, but something a little north and east might work. NYC? I don't think so.

Regarding an indoor meet in Las Vegas, what were the attendee costs of that?

As for local CofC Convention/Visitors Bureau items, you might check for the Top 10 "A List" cities for conventions and such. They would most probably have the infrastructure in place for events as large as the BCA meets are becoming, plus local people who are experienced in larger "national" events. Might even check out the "Next 10" list, too, for ideas.

I like the idea of having some sort of automotive historical tie-in for the location (i.e., the Route 66 "connection"). I believe there is still some sort of "Drive 66" event each year, so having the meet at a location to coincide with that event might be neat! Or possibly even to coincide with one of the magazine car tours sleep-over locations? Something of that nature might do lots to increase the visibility of the BCA in areas it normally would not be known--"shameless self-promotion" that it might be.

Thanks for the inquiry, Brian! I look forward to seeing how the requested data develops!

NTX5467

[The Old Guy]

I have been to every BCA national meet since 1971, but I will NOT be at the meet in Ames. The BCA has lost its way , and the fun is gone !!!! The emphasis now is on the 400 point system ,and one of the reasons the cost has become prohibitive. The breakfasts, seminars and trophies along with banquets that drag on forever have , in my opinion done the organizition in.

Raising the dues to overcome a shortfall in membership was another monumental faux pas !!! The economy is in the dumper,no matter what the TV says, and instead of trying to economize , the dues were raised. It will be interesting to see how many members this stunt cost.

I wish you luck, but I think someon has fouled their nest

[Fr. Buick]

Please rotate around - East, West, Mid-West, South, etc.

Chapters can learn to expect a little variety like this, and plan to make a bid accordingly.

Keep it simple, as said before, and inexpensive.

And when push comes to shove, some gratitude should be shown for those chapters willing to do the work. So show up, help out, and don't gripe about imperfections.

Looking forward to Aimes,

Doug Cook

Orange County Chapter, SoCal

[Thriller]

I haven't given much thought overall, but I'd like to add a bit to the discussion. First of all, I agree with it moving around. I've gotten to see so much more of North America in the last 7 years as a result than if I hadn't gotten involved.

Secondly, the cost is getting a bit out of hand. Since we travel as a family of 5, attractions that cost fifty dollars a head just don't cut it. It means not doing any of the events associated with the meet, or doing some of them on our own before, during, or after the meet.

I'm as big a fan of natural beauty as anything else...perhaps Montana or another location off the beaten path in the Rockies. More easterly, perhaps some of the Adirondack or Ozark areas would be nice. Perhaps then some driving tours showing off the natural beauty could take the place of the more expensive attractions.

I'm looking forward to Ames as it is a bit off the beaten path. That being said, I still haven't figured out which categories to put my cars in, so haven't yet sent in my registration.

[Guest BJM]

Ames is a good barometer of throwing out the window the concept that Nationals need to be held in larger metropolitan areas. For that matter, so was the Rochester, Minnesota meet.

With that in mind, I think Nationals need to combine scenic destiantions whihc offer good driving tours.

I understand on 1st impression that Ames Iowa might induce yawning, but I live right here and can attest to the fact that we can put together a nice 4-5 days event.

Like Thriller, I want destinations that, well, you might go to anyway for a nice vacation getaway. Add great Buicks and great friends it's a win-win.

The great Smoky Mountain range north to south. How about at a great lodge. States like KY, Tennessee, west Virginia.

[Barney Eaton]

How about comments on the time of the year.

Historically, the meet has been in June or July. The reasoning being that the kids are out of school. In the same breath, the BCA says one reason we are loosing members is they are getting old and dying..... If all our members are old, we could have a meet any time of the year.

San Antonio would be a great meet location but not in the summer. Brian proposed Charlotte at the last board meeting but it was beat out by Danvers MA.... Charlotte would be a super place if the meet could be held in April-May or September-October to avoid the heat.

A huge % of BCA members live within 500 miles of Charlotte.

Another thing we should strongly consider........ making the Regional meets more prestegious.

When gas prices were at $4.00 people were reluctant to travel long distances.... we may get back to $4.00 gas and we need a plan. Regional meets need to be planned further in advance so that the event can be in the Bugle at least 6 months before it is held..this allows BCA members that live some distance away to plan on attending. Regional meets that attract more BCA members would allow more members to attend a BCA event that would be like a mini-national.

How about technical sessions at National and Regional meets? Since I am the technical advisor coordinator, I am willing to get "experts" for these......however, although I offer, the national meet clubs can never find time slot for Tech-Sessions. We have lots of knowledgable Buick owners that would be willing to assist with these activities.

I pushed the envelope in Buffalo and had a tech session although I could not get the local people to put it in the schedule or even put up notices.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Barney Eaton (see edit history)

[The Old Guy]

There have been more national meets in Flint Mich than anywhere. I attribute this to the fact that it is (WAS) the hometown of Buick. They were not judged meets, but drew more Buicks than any of the others. We did have tech seminars and the prices were reasonable. $50 dollars to register and then an additional $20 for judging is what the new regime has decided is the norm, and I think that is ridiculous ! Buicktown charged $30 and we made enough to give a grant to The Sloan Museum for the restoration of their 53 Skylark.

It would be nice to get back to basics. The early meets had members on the field talking about their experiences DRIVING to the show. Now we seem to cater to the member that unloads from a trailer , and knows only how much it cost to restore their "work of art"

[BUKE]

With all due respect and I sincerely mean that. I too went to Colorado Springs drove my 1940 from Massachusetts and enjoyed every minute of it. Our national meets give us all a chance to meet one another and enjoy the buick's of yesterday. Though my Buicks are all drivers and stock I appreciate seeing and listen to the stories about how hard they worked to get the 400 points system it's all very interesting and very friendly. I do enjoy judging and learning so getting my point is the cost. If the judge's breakfast is an issue it shouldn't be the banquet is something we all who want to attend help pay the cost of it. All the workers volunteer their time and did a great job. I am sorry the old guy won't be in attendance and he will be missed especially at the forum breakfast. The next one I like to make there was a board membership meeting with approximately 500 empty seats and a handful of people that attended. For most of the eight hours that an old board and new board worked on the cost of the membership dues. The board did their best not to raise dues. The thought of losing membership by raising the dues was hard and long a lot of things were suggested by the small group that took the time to go to the meeting to try to work it out. Suggestions were made to cut the pages of the bugle and maybe even charging for memberships free advertisement of the cars for sale I personally felt the membership would not want that for the bugle is one of our best assets. Mike and Nancy came out with many different ways not to do this our editor Pete Phillips as I remember worked hard to keep the bugle as is and everybody agreed. When the last solution came it was to raise the dues and took discussion along time. The thought was to raise dues of minimum but the problem was would they have to come back next year and do it again. The solution was to raise the dues as it is today and hope that that didn't have to happen the cost of our membership was a great concern of all. My only suggestion is to please come to the meetings and voice your opinion and enjoy the show and everything that comes with it and remember it's not the Buick club of america decision to raise the cost of living. I sincerely hope I didn't insult nobody but I just had to reply

have a great buick day

Frank

[Reatta Man]

First and foremost, I would be interested to know if, and why, the meets are held in July.

That month in particular is very hot almost anywhere you go, and many of the driven Buicks don't have A/C. Could June or even May be a possibility?

Next, keep in mind that many of the cities suggested would almost lend themselves to a major hotel, possibly downtown. If you do that, the costs of everything go up. There is NO free parking in many metropolitan downtown areas, and the closer to downtown you get, the more the hotels charge for everything you use or rent, from extension cords to a pot of coffee for a meeting or reception.

Also keep in mind that corporate sponsorship (financial support) is almost certain to go down or disappear all together.

With all of that in mind, if it is to be kept in July, I would suggest meeting near a lower-cost non-metropolitan area that splits the driving distance and is not so blazing hot. If enough space could be found, that would lend itself to the Denver-Colorado Springs area, Rapid City, SD (think Mount Rushmore and beautiful scenery) Grand Teton or Yellowstone National Parks, St. Louis or Chattanooga.

[Guest windjamer]

:)As A non-member of the BCA,may I add my 2 cents? First let me say with all due respect,outher than your fine mag. you dont do anything. I have a BCA applacation all made out and ready to go,several of my Buick friends also would like to be members but the nearest chapter is to the best of my knowlage about 200 miles from me.Thats a heck of a drive for a Wed. night meeting/get togather. After checking the list you posted of past meets I find in the past 39 years there has been four held that where within 200 miles of me. Good job Bataiva/Buffalow. Second, if I read the post right it cost $30.00 for a non-judged show and an extra $20.00 if you want your car judged. :eek: Sorry guys + gals. $50.00 for a standard show,not a grand National is to much auch-a-pucky. Non-judged shows I attend are called cruse-ins.

Finely,have a judged show 250 miles or less from me and I will be there with my membership app. in one hand and my judges hat in the outher, asking only,What can I do to help:D

[Guest windjamer]

:)Aestorrs, you are 100% right. First and formost I dont think any club member expects to be fed for free,AACA charges $5. a head and well worth every penny. I dont want to put down ANY club,but I do think the AACA has just about the best system there is. No,where not perfect but I can say our normal meets and tours are booked solid untill I think 2014. From Feb. 2010 untill Aug. 2011 we have 29 Nat. events (Tours and MEets) scheduled. Thats a pretty full schedule. I may be out in left field,but I bet if a BCA chapter wanted to hold a meet and requested a helping hand from a AACA region you would get help.

[Guest my3buicks]

:)As A non-member of the BCA,may I add my 2 cents? First let me say with all due respect,other than your fine mag. you dont do anything. I have a BCA application all made out and ready to go,several of my Buick friends also would like to be members but the nearest chapter is to the best of my knowledge about 200 miles from me.That's a heck of a drive for a Wed. night meeting/get together. After checking the list you posted of past meets I find in the past 39 years there has been four held that where within 200 miles of me. Good job Bataiva/Buffalow. Second, if I read the post right it cost $30.00 for a non-judged show and an extra $20.00 if you want your car judged. :eek: Sorry guys + gals. $50.00 for a standard show,not a grand National is to much auch-a-pucky. Non-judged shows I attend are called cruse-ins.

Finely,have a judged show 250 miles or less from me and I will be there with my membership app. in one hand and my judges hat in the outher, asking only,What can I do to help:D

Dick, maybe instead of sitting at your computer pissing about what the BCA does and doesn't do when you don't even belong Perhaps you should join, start a chapter along with the several other friends you mention and then organize a National meet. It could then be in your own back yard.

A chapter not being near you is a POOR excuse for not belonging when it is easy to start a chapter. Chapters don't all of a sudden appear and start by themselves. That's how it works in all car clubs, groups of people start local chapters, etc etc.

As doing nothing, across the country local chapters usually have shows, regions usually have shows, and of course the yearly national. That added to shows hosted by all the divisions within the BCA should keep you far busy enough over the summer.

[Guest my3buicks]

Windjammer

Dick, While it's nice you are in love with the AACA, probably a huge majority of BCA members are also members of the AACA and are very well aware of how it operates, etc.

I have been an AACA member for as long as I have been a BCA member, around 30 years and find a lot of similarities between the two.

Trying to do the same things in a single marque club, as a muti-marque club as far as activities would be impossible - the number of members alone would dictate that along with many other variables.

[Reatta Man]

:)As A non-member of the BCA,may I add my 2 cents? First let me say with all due respect,outher than your fine mag. you dont do anything. I have a BCA applacation all made out and ready to go,several of my Buick friends also would like to be members but the nearest chapter is to the best of my knowlage about 200 miles from me.Thats a heck of a drive for a Wed. night meeting/get togather. After checking the list you posted of past meets I find in the past 39 years there has been four held that where within 200 miles of me. Good job Bataiva/Buffalow. Second, if I read the post right it cost $30.00 for a non-judged show and an extra $20.00 if you want your car judged. :eek: Sorry guys + gals. $50.00 for a standard show,not a grand National is to much auch-a-pucky. Non-judged shows I attend are called cruse-ins.

Finely,have a judged show 250 miles or less from me and I will be there with my membership app. in one hand and my judges hat in the outher, asking only,What can I do to help:D

OK, Windjammer,

At my church and in several other organizations I've been a part of, not liking something is a good way to be put in charge of that project that you are complaining about.

So, with that in mind, consider the following questions:

1. What do you THINK a chapter should be doing? I know that some (many) hold shows, have swap meets, and often get local cooperation from the Buick dealer(s) in the area. What else do you expect them to do?

2. What is YOUR budget for a national show, with judging? Have you priced printing, buying trophies, renting space and furniture lately? Have you priced a one or two-day liability policy for an event open to the public? Have you tried to organize and train 10, 20 or 40 volunteers to take tickets, park cars, direct traffic, set up tables and answer questions? You might have an eye-opening experience to go to a local chapter meeting and see a copy of their budget for a recent judged event. While you are at it, ask the staff that actually put on an event to total up the hours they spent working on it. You don't do one of those shows in a couple of afternoons of arranging a schedule. After you've done all of that, then determine if $30 or $50 is overpriced for a car show event.

And, if you REALLY want to be shocked out of your mind, just check into the price of cosigning your car to a major collector car auction.

3. As for you wanting a judged show at your price within 250 miles of your home before you will attend, you miss the point. Travelling to a scenic or fun location and meeting people who came across the country or even from Austrailia or NZ is part of the fun. Get out of your local area and see the country...while you still can!

[Guest Skyking]

Raising the dues to overcome a shortfall in membership was another monumental faux pas !!! The economy is in the dumper,no matter what the TV says, and instead of trying to economize , the dues were raised. It will be interesting to see how many members this stunt cost.

I wish you luck, but I think someon has fouled their nest

The $50.00 cost this year has dropped me out of the BCA. I've been a member since 1982.

[Guest windjamer]

Keith,Reatta, If you allways do what you allways done you allways get what you allways got.My local club has 35 maby 40 members mostly older like myself with maby 15 attending our monthly meeting except when we have a free pick nick then we have a full house. Wanting to hold a Nat.meet and knowing we didnt have the man power we joined forces with two outher local clubs and applyed for a meet.We spent 2005 and 2006 working on the meet and held it in June of 2007. I was the asst. field marshell and also the Asst. banquit chair. We sold advertisement,begged sponsors and passed out flyers from start to finish. I personaly signed up several new members and atended numerious local shows to promote ours. As a result we had nearly 500 cars registered where able to cover all our expenses and make a nice donation to the AACA museum and library. Our meet was held at SUNY Binghamton NY. June 30,2007. As a result I THINK? I have a small idea of the work involved. No one person can do it all,TOGATHER we can.

[38Buick 80C]

OK well my this thread went off in a completely different direction than I intended, but that's OK. We use this one for constructive criticism on how to improve national meets

I am going to try again for those who just want to post fun fantasy locations here is the link to that thread.

http://forums.aaca.org/f115/fun-fantasy-locations-bca-national-274134.html#post715385

OK in response to some of the questions raised about cost of the National meet I can say this from experience related to the Carolina Chapters unsuccessful bid to host 2011. Cost are what they are. As for tour cost I would have been able to get group rates but there are tour buses to pay for and unfortunately the popular touristy type thing (for instance NASCAR Hall of Fame) are still pretty expensive even with a group discount. As for the flat registration fee. I could not get my financial to pencil without it. There are just too many expense to pay for and our chapter is not going to lose money, break even fine, profit would be nice as it would be nice to use the profit to reward the hard working volunteers in my chapter that will sacrifice their time.

One point was brought up about having the meets downtown. Most national meets are not actually held downtown but in the suburbs of the major city. The reason... finding a location that can hold 400+ cars, plus flea market area and has enough hotel rooms to support the expected turn out.

Clarification the BCA National Meet can be considered a "Grand National Meet" by other clubs terminology. AACA has like 8 or more national meets per year but only one grand national. BCA has one National. The regional may have REgional Meets or Tours but that is up to the Region.

As far booking National 3-5 years in advance.... I say bring your bid to the Board for consideration. Right now we've been lucky to get one or two bids at only two years out.

Good feedback so far keep it up!!

[Guest 4 bufords]

i,m glad to see it in ames next year,sounds like a nice area.looking foreward to meet bca members from all over.was hoping to meet the old guy,roberta and others.maybe the old guy will change his mind about not going.really looking forward to danvers in 2011,was there in 98 4bufords from ct

[Thriller]

Well, up here school runs from Labour Day to latish June. For me, if you go outside of July / August, then I either don't attend, or it isn't the family event that it has been for us. If it isn't a family event for us, I have to do another significant vacation for the kids' sakes...then I have to start figuring out whether or not the National is justified for me.

To get to Colorado this year, we pulled the children from the last day of school...of course, they wouldn't have done anything on that last half day anyway. If I had driven an old Buick, with perhaps less reliability than Max, I may have needed to add an extra day on the road to be sure we got there.

Of course, you can't please everyone.

As for those who speak about cost, I have a real issue with it. Your money is your own to do with as you please, but when the cost of a membership and National Meet registration is on par with a full tank of fuel in the Buick, I have trouble with that. I guess you aren't spending any money on parts or restoration then either. We get similar sort of results at the local club level and I feel exactly the same way.

For those who don't have chapters near them, I joined the nearest chapter to me...meetings are about 450 or so miles away. Today I submitted for a day off work so I could attend an annual banquet. That's a day's drive to have a couple hours of fun with friends, find a place to sleep and then drive a day to get back home. Not everyone would do that, but I did. Of course, up here in winter country, whether I actually attend or not will be weather dependent - if a storm brews up or road are poor, I won't risk my life for this.

Joe, we'll miss you in Ames. I guess we'll have to drink scotch without you. At least if we remember, we can toast your health.

I love the fact that Buke drives his '40 such great distances. He's an inspiration to me. It actually has me considering how I can make it work to drive to Danvers in the '41. I guess we'll see. I do enjoy driving that car, but I'm not sure how she (along with my limited spares and diagnosis / repair prowess) would stand up to the trip.

Another point to consider is how well the Driven class has been taken up. When you get around a hundred Buicks up for a Driven Award, that doesn't tell me everything is about the 400 point judging. Granted, some of those cars wouldn't come near an award, but they got their under their own power. Sure, some people (perhaps myself included) take the 400 point judging too seriously. Without it, though, would we have good examples to use for reference?

Well, that's probably more than you wanted to hear from me.

[Guest BJM]

i,m glad to see it in ames next year,sounds like a nice area.looking foreward to meet bca members from all over.was hoping to meet the old guy,roberta and others.maybe the old guy will change his mind about not going.really looking forward to danvers in 2011,was there in 98 4bufords from ct

It will be very nice - and nice for all attending with different agendas and reasons. Old Guy, the issue of 400 point Judging has been discussed ad nauseum.

I have never owned a restored Buick yet have been to 3 BCA Nationals (St Louis / Plano / Rochester) Enjoyed them all without having a judged car.

You know darn well you would have fun in Ames. We can tour the scenic Des Moines River Valley. You can hit all those Route 66 type Lincoln Highway attractions coming over, great food, great event with the Boone and Scenic valley Railroad, a great butterfly exhibit and tons of Buicks.

On the other hand, it's important to have 400 point Judging. We are basically 10 years into the new Century and we need to keep benchmarking what a Buick was fromt he factory. Otherwise someday what amounts to a 300 point 1940 Buick will roll inot a BCA National and that will be the "standard". Oh well, who cares, we all had fun at the 75% of a Buick National meet.

[The Old Guy]

Jake

That IS the problem. The 400 point judging! I have lived in Flint all my life (76 years ) get upset. and when I see someone on the field get knocked down for door fits or paint that was FAR superior to what was done st the factory ,I get upset.

I realize that our major problem is not having enough "qualified " judges, but using the system once a year will not allow a good enough learning curve. I have seen people judging that haven't a clue what they should be seeing. I applaud them for stepping up but until we have a better training system, the system will not work.

The chief judge tells them repeatedly " don't kill the car" but some judges do.

[Thriller]

Jake

That IS the problem. The 400 point judging! I have lived in Flint all my life (76 years ) get upset. and when I see someone on the field get knocked down for door fits or paint that was FAR superior to what was done st the factory ,I get upset.

I realize that our major problem is not having enough "qualified " judges, but using the system once a year will not allow a good enough learning curve. I have seen people judging that haven't a clue what they should be seeing. I applaud them for stepping up but until we have a better training system, the system will not work.

The chief judge tells them repeatedly " don't kill the car" but some judges do.

Joe - I agree completely. One of the problems as I see it is that senior judges are seen as "qualified" and are exempted from the training. No matter how many times it is repeated in the judging school, "don't kill the car" doesn't get to those who don't attend. I've attended the judging school a few times now, and was extremely disappointed when the Wildcat took a bronze award this year. If a car is supposed to be done in 5-10 minutes (and I agree five is on the short side), 9 cars should only take an hour and a half...plenty of time for the judges to get done in time for lunch, but that isn't reality. I'm not quite as far as you are on the emotional scale, but I certainly am reconsidering my participation as a judge and having cars judged.

Why is it that on a couple photos of a car for sale online here, we have experts who can pick out errors, but we can't get judges out? There are plenty of knowledgeable folks in the BCA...it's almost a chicken and egg thing - to improve judging, we need judges, but we need to improve judging to get more folks involved.

Jake - Pete is the chair of judges' training and is pretty regular here. Alan is here occasionally. The majority of the BoD is here on at least an occasional basis.

I'd better stop before I stray too much further off topic and really get upset....

[Smartin]

I got points knocked off of my tan 71 LeSabre at Rochester due to "overspray on heads from exhaust manifolds" and I about flipped my lid. Can you really not tell overspray from paint that is burned off the exhaust port on a head that was painted 2 months prior?

Other than that, I've been reasonably happy with the judging on my cars.

I've thought seriously about participating in the judging, but since then, I haven't been able to make a national...so it has never materialized. It won't again this year, due to the BPG nats overlapping the BCA nats.

[Mark Shaw]

I have already made my suggestions regarding locations being alternated around the country. This ensures that members from various parts of the country get to attend a National Meet every few years. I did not mean two or more Nationals per year, just one National each year that moves around the country.

I fully agree with "The Old Guy". We each have our reasons for being in a car club and getting awards is not my thing. Therefore, I do not participate in judging cars because I do not have my cars judged.

If there is a shortage of judges, maybe a requirement for being judged should be that you volunteer to be a judge. Judging every two or three years might help put the process in perspective and make better cars and better judges.

Judging cars should pay for itself just like anything else. This should include the judges breakfast, training, extra pages in The Bugle, awards, etc. Not everyone wants their car judged, and they should not have to pay more to attend a National Meet so others can get a trophy.

My 2 cents...

Edited December 24, 2009 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

In considering "when" to have the BCA National each year, we typically think of "school year" with respect to what our own local school year is, rather than what it might be in another area of North America--they are NOT all the same. That generally means the July & August time frame, but typically July. July is warm, even in Flint, but that is relative to what one is used to.

From the dialogue on the issue of the last Flint meet being non-judged, it's obvious that many expect to have a 400 Point judged show or it's not a "national meet" for them--be that as it may. To me, from my own involvement in two BCA National Meets, the judging system is not nearly as big of a future issue as the MANY things that must be scheduled in the reasonably short timeframe of the national meet. I think Barney's idea of bonafide tech sessions being available is great, but every hour is already pretty much scheduled with either meetings, trainings, breakfasts, divisional activities, tours, the awards banquet . . . and more meetings. In that respect, it seems that the real focus of the national meet is not specifically the 400 Point judging, but MEETINGS that only can happen once a year when "the membership" is congregated at the national meet event. So, if you're going to be "active" in the membership, you have to go to the meetings to see what's going on and offer input in person. And this is only for the BCA per se, not including the various divisions thereof or related entities!

As for the $50.00/year basic BCA membership dues, there are compelling conversations on each side of the increase situation. Different ways to look at it too, as Thriller has mentioned one side and others have mentioned other orientations. I do know that in the past, whenever a dues increase was hinted at, it seemed like there was going to be "an uprising", so they were delayed for years, until it was necessary "or else". Thriller might reference a tank of gas, I might reference a yearly name-brand magazine subscription for which NO national network of members is part of the package. In the case of the BCA, we must also be cognizant that chapter dues are in the yearly mix, too. Still, there is a tolerance level which many of us have to deal with--one way or another, especially if "fixed-income" is in the mix.

It might be that too much emphasis has evolved in the area of the 400 Point Judging situation, but that emphasis was put there by members who either like to see vehicles of that calibre or have a vehicle to compete in that arena. And then the BCA (as other similar clubs do) has the "Preservation" awards and certifications, which further showcases the vehicles in the 400 Point judging. It's kind of hard to get away from those things, just as it would be hard to not have an awards banquet for presentation of these high-level achievement awards.

In many areas, it's really necessary to have the event contracted and booked at least two years in advance, which is pretty standard for such things. That also means that the host chapter(s) would need to have their potential bids "working" an additional year in advance, making the start time three years before the potential event's date. In some cases, the process can be fast-tracked at the local level to get the bid proposal together, but having it booked two years prior is still reasonably necessary.

It used to be that the BCA's orientation on lodging was $100.00/night, which used to cover the host hotel. This was also in a time when the lodging industry had "wholesale" rates which were abot 75% of "retail" rates. From what I've seen, the lodging industry's rates might not be that way any more, with Internet shopping and such. Now, room rates have generally increased for the better hotels (which many EXPECT the host hotel and others to be "alternatively priced" close-by). And then there is that "minor issue" of the event booking enough "room nights" to satisfy the room block booking contract, which means "no online reservations via the lodging provider's website", typically.

What about . . . if a survey was done of room rates at "nice" hotels in various regions of the country, at various price levels? Then use this list to build the final list of venue proposals for BCA National Meets? Of course, there would have to be enough available rooms and space to do the BCA National Meet at each location, plus banquet facilities and related meal costs. Once this data was compiled and presented on the BCA website, it might allow members to, even just from lodging prices, to see where the bargains might be and IF they might desire to attend a BCA National Meet at that location. Just a thought . . .

HAPPY HOLIDAYS, BEST WISHES FOR A PROSPEROUS 2010!

NTX5467

[Thriller]

That idea could be extended for regional shows as well...they could almost be a trial run for a National.

[NTX5467]

Mark's comments about awards being self-supporting . . .

There are many things in the 400 Point Judging activities to consider when determining what the entry free increase should be when a vehicle is put into that judging environment. Typically, a first thing is the cost of the local awards, which can be highly variable and ALSO which need to include the cost of the BCA casting for these awards. That, alone, can consume about $30.00/award, or a little more as there are no generic "country-wide" prices for similar awards. Also, be cognizant that many of the "Recognition Awards" which the BCA also presents (Senior, Senior Preservation, etc.) are also billed to the host chapter by the BCA National Office (including freight in some cases!). These are NOT typically inexpensive awards, either, from my experiences.

About a decade ago, when the BCA was having financial issues, the BOD made the decision to transfer more of the meet award expenses to the hosting chapter, but also upped the BCA's "seed money" by $1000.00 to help pay for this change. Not unlike some current legislative proposals where something is required to be purchased, but "We'll give you an allowance to help pay for it".

The cost of the Judges Breakfast is similar to that of a nice meal in a restaurant. It's a nice appreciation gesture, but as the show field vehicle numbers grow, the number of attendees at the Judges Breakfast can also grow, just as the Judges souvenir pin expenses will similarly grow.

So, this gets us ready to go to the show field. WHOOPS!! What about all of the printed documents and judging sheets, plus window cards, for the vehicles on the show field? Pens? Clipboards? Class designation parking signs? Now, with all of these things taken care of, the judges are ready to start!

At this point, we can attempt to do a cost figure, but it's highly possible that any money charged for the 400 Point Judging entry will not cover these expenses. Now, with some juggling of where expenses are put in the accounting activities, we can move the Judges Breakfast into the general meet overhead column, as can be the nuts&bolts of the judges supplies. Parking signs can be carried from one meet to another, sometimes, but not always.

Estimating the number of the normal 400 Point awards is a total "crapshoot". Very few meets have the same number of Gold, Silver, Bronze awards each year, nor the same number of BCA Recognition Awards, either. This is one reason that, at some BCA National Meets, the awards banquet had to "take a break" as more awards were built onsite. This is also a reason that having the 400 Point Judging on Friday, rather than Saturday, can be a big logistical help--from my own experiences. Even if you might take the prior year's judging results to help gauge how many of each level of award might be needed, after meet registration closes, it can still be an inexact situation as you never know if an owner has upgraded their vehicle from the prior year or it's gone the other way after the prior meet.

End result, as fine as it might be to have the total cost of 400 Point Judging covered by applicable fees to enter that activity, I also suspect that if the fees were raised to do that, they would be high enough that many might think twice about participating at that level. I also suspect that the outcry would be louder than what we've heard about the BCA National Membership dues increase! Or, the 400 Point Judging would become "a rich person's playground" (and all that might mean to some, with all due respect).

Personally, I feel that the host chapter should pay for the 400 Point Awards which are a part of that particular meet (including the required BCA casting for these awards), plus the Judges Breakfast, Judges Hatpins, printing and related items. From there, the BCA Recognition Awards which glorify the BCA itself, rather than the particular meet, should be provided completely by the BCA itself. It has been desired for more chapters to offer to host BCA National Meets, but when a cost accounting proposal work sheet of expenses and income is done, the cost of the BCA-provided awards can be a deal-breaker, before the BCA allowances are even considered--by observation--especially for a smaller show.

I realize that, as in prior times, with the current BCA membership numbers in the decline, having the BCA cover more meet 400 Point Award expenses might not be a popular idea with the BOD operatives, yet it would seem to be more fair to the host chapter and very possibly allow for more profitable meets to happen (at the host chapter level). Of course, if the BCA becomes more involved in putting on BCA National Meets, they'll end up covering the costs anyway.

Just some thoughts and orientations,

NTX5467

Edited December 26, 2009 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Pete Phillips]

You guys can dream all you want to about exotic "wouldn't it be nice" locations for a national meet, but it just won't work unless you have a nearby local BCA chapter with involved members who are familiar with the area. Someone local has to lay out the bus tours and activities. Someone local has to be on board every bus to tell the driver which way to go, etc. Someone local has to be at the registration table to answer questions about "how do I find a local tire store or auto parts store or pharmacy or how do I get back to the airport and on and on. Someone local has to answer the dozens of phone calls you get from members all over the country weeks in advance of the meet. "Where can I park my RV? Where is the closest state park? How much does it cost? What's the weather like in July? Is there shade on the show field? What is the best route to the show? What are the closest hotels? What are the closest bed & breakfasts and how much do they cost?

BCA members are a very demanding group, and these are the questions that the meet hosts are expected to answer. You can't do it if the meet organizers live 400 miles away.

The best idea I've read on this thread is to have a meet somewhere along U.S. Route 66, and include drives along the route as part of the meet activities. Since we have no chapter in Oklahoma, no chapter in the Texas panhandle, no chapter in northern Arizona, no chapter in the California desert, no chapter in southwestern Missouri, and no chapter in southeastern Kansas, that sort of limits the areas of Rte. 66 that can host the meet, but we do have chapters in Chicago, St. Louis, and southern California.

On the question of judging, I realize it's not for everyone. Whether or not you get your car judged is entirely optional at most of our meets. Yes, there are errors that get made--as Joe points out, we only get practice at this once a year and sometimes less. But in my experience, it usually works out pretty well. Yes, some points get deducted that shouldn't be, but often there as just as many deducts that didn't get spotted by the judge, so it usually evens out in the long run. The reason I spend a lot of effort in the judging is because if everyone modified their old cars to their liking, pretty soon very few people will know what is correct or authentic and what isn't correct on an old (pick any year) Buick. Then, what do you do when you are trying to restore one back to original? You lose your benchmarks, and then no one knows what's correct. That's why I volunteer to help with the judging & administration. It doesn't get any more enjoyable when I read or listen to the derisive comments that some of you guys make about judging, but I'll just try to keep my mouth shut when I look at your modifications, and will continue to do what I can to give recognition to those who value authenticity in their Buicks.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Sherman, Texas

[Guest BJM]

The reason I spend a lot of effort in the judging is because if everyone modified their old cars to their liking, pretty soon very few people will know what is correct or authentic and what isn't correct on an old (pick any year) Buick. Then, what do you do when you are trying to restore one back to original? You lose your benchmarks, and then no one knows what's correct.

Pete Phillips, BCA #7338

Sherman, Texas

Pete and I are 100% on the same page here. Each marque club be it Cadillac or Buick or whatever, this is, IMO, a huge part of our purpose or existence.

It does not mean that you can't come to a national and just hang out.

[bhclark]

I would love to see a National in the Great Smoky Mountains area.

LOTS of cheap hotels in Pigeon Forge and they host many car and bike shows every year. Lots to see and do around that area as well. Great driving roads!

Chattanooga was also a great recommendation. Close enough for an after tour to the smokies. Memphis and Nashville are also great recommendations. (Can you tell I grew up in Tennessee?)

I absolutely LOVED the 3 day drive out to Colorado Springs in my '59 Invicta and my gas and hotel costs actually came in under budget! The price of the host hotel on the other hand took care of that "budget", but I wanted to be in the middle of the action.

I look forward to the 1 day drive to AMES as well, as I have never been past Quincy, Il in that direction.

Las Vegas would be a dream destination. Hotels are cheap, but they absolutely rape you on meeting rooms and "snacks". That would be the issue there, as would be the weather, especially for the pre-war cars.

I did fly to Seattle as I was on my own and did not have the time off work to drive it.

Oklahoma, Utah, South Dakota, Montana....all beautiful places I hope to visit someday, preferably in on of my Buicks!

Sorry if I got the thread back on topic.

[keiser31]

Crater Lake, Oregon.

[NTX5467]

Pete's comments about "local people, on the ground" are accurate and reasons why a National Meet Coordinator, even in concert with local Chamber of Commerce/Visitor's Bureau, might fall short of some meet attendees' inquiries.

Regards,

NTX5467