RIVNIK Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Greetings, fellow Rivs.......I'm hoping one of you can give me some advice on '65 wheels. I have a set of Rally wheels of three different numerical codes, none of them the proper '65 wheels. After consulting the Riview articles on the subject, I know that three of them are '71-'78 wheels(895) and the other one(853) is unidentifiable from the info in the articles. What it does say is that the 895's should not be used on the '65 because of "lack of register" between the wheel & hub. Q#1......is there an adapter available that will somehow provide more contact surface? Q#2....Could lack of register create a dangerous situation? (These wheels were on the car before I switched to steel wheels & wire hubcaps, and I didn't notice any problems.) Q#3......while having the tires balanced, I was told that one of the wheels was bent (although not visibly) and could not be properly balanced. Can a slightly bent Rally Wheel be straightened by a pro? ... Thanks,Rivnik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZRIV Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) 853 is a mid 67 through 1970 wheel. Q1 - There are no adapters available that I am aware ofQ2 - I've known many including myself who have run these wheels without the register rings with no adverse affects, however unknown variables could cause a problem. Obviously the engineers put rings in the wheels for reason. Beside their timeless iconic styling, these wheels are built very strong so relying on the just the lug nuts for centering typically works.Q3 - A bent wheel that won't balance should be scrapped. Not sure about the 65 but running the 895 wheels on a 66-70, the wheels will contact the rear brake drums and additionally are so close to the fixed brake backing plate that it will knock any traditional wheel weights off front or rear that are on the inside of wheel. One more note the back spacing is different on the 895 wheels vs all earlier wheels. 3-3/8' vs 3-7/8" on the 895s hence the issue noted above Edited August 26, 2015 by JZRIV (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petelempert Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I assumed the rings were primarily designed to aid in mounting rather than strengthen the wheel. Is that wrong? I cut the rings off a set of 69 wheels and have been running them on my 63 for 8 years. I'm still alive. PRL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 (edited) I've been running '67 wheels on my '63 for at least 25 years with no register ring and no problem. It's easier to center the lug nut, but that's just a matter of doing some hand tightening before putting an impact wrench to them. Copied and pasted from the ROA's website. • The 1966 - '67 (Rim Code 802) wheels were used on drum brake cars and the 1967 - '70 (Rim Code 853) wheels were used on disc brake and drum brake cars. Edited August 26, 2015 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Although Jason says a bent wheel should be scrapped, your question was can this wheel be straightened by a professional. The answer to that is yes, they can, by a professional. As plentiful as these wheels are, I am not sure it is worth the trouble. But there are people who can straighten this wheel for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dale in Vancouver Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Hi Ed. Surprised you mentioned "impact" wrench, I assume you meant to say "torque" wrench ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIVNIK Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Steelhead, I would think there are plenty of these wheels available, but I must be looking ln the wrong direction. If you or anyone has a source for Rally wheels let me know. Since some of you have used later model wheels on your 1st gens with success, then I might give it a try. I have three good '71 wheels (895s), and may just try to track down another one, providing I find no backing plate clearance issues. I seem to remember someone telling me about chrome balance weights designed to attach to the face of a chrome wheel with minimum visual impact. Is anyone familiar with this? I may also be interested in a full set of proper '65 wheels in restorable cond. if anyone has them. Thanks guys, keep em comin if there's more. Thanks, Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Hi Ed. Surprised you mentioned "impact" wrench, I assume you meant to say "torque" wrench ??I have a small impact wrench that tightens the nuts to about 80 lbs. I torque them from there. It's just faster than spinning a 4-way, and it takes them off quicker. I do start them by hand to make sure they're threaded correctly. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dale in Vancouver Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 OK Ed, you're off the hook ! My comment was rather tongue in cheek - hope you weren't offended. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Me offended? Nope. Just keeping me honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) My car has 64 wheels without the so called register ring that were installed in 1967.....They've workedfine for 48 years....nothing to worry about. Edited August 28, 2015 by Seafoam65 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Steelhead, I would think there are plenty of these wheels available, but I must be looking ln the wrong direction. If you or anyone has a source for Rally wheels let me know. Since some of you have used later model wheels on your 1st gens with success, then I might give it a try. I have three good '71 wheels (895s), and may just try to track down another one, providing I find no backing plate clearance issues. I seem to remember someone telling me about chrome balance weights designed to attach to the face of a chrome wheel with minimum visual impact. Is anyone familiar with this? I may also be interested in a full set of proper '65 wheels in restorable cond. if anyone has them. Thanks guys, keep em comin if there's more. Thanks, DrewBe very careful when using the `71 and up wheels on your `65. As Jason stated above, the `71 and up wheel has a different offset than your original wheels which may result in the inside outer edge of the rim contacting the fins on the brake drum BEFORE the lug nut area of the wheel seats against the face of the axle/hub. This may result in the lug nuts feeling like they are approaching the proper torque when in fact the center of the wheel is not properly seated/bottomed out. This can result in the wheel loosening up because they are never torqued properly from the start.You can use the earlier (`64-`70) wheel and avoid this problem. However, if possible, it is best to use these wheels with the register rings in tact. Wheels are engineered so they are a snug fit over the hub/axle which they are mounted to. This is not a Buick peculiarity but is true industry wide. The engineers design the wheels with this in mind and if possible the intended design should be adhered to. The wheels are not an area of any car to cut corners.Can the wheels be used without the register rings and only indexed by the lug nuts? Sure, but if given the option I think it is best to have the proper register rings in tact also.Most folks dont realize that the `64 chrome wheels, without the register ring, also are indexed because the base of the nose of the wheel is a snug fit over the larger `64 hub/axle. So even the wheels without the register ring are a snug fit over the hub/axle. As stated, this is VERY, VERY common industry practice. Good luck, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lapham3 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 These Modern Wheel products are fairly common, but those in good shape after all the years maybe not so much. The additional issue is how 'true' are they? One day some years ago I evaluated about 20-25 that I had for radial/axial runout by mounting them up and setting up a dial indicator. Most were off by more than I wanted to see=.020-.050". (When I was a young pup at the tire shop, we trued tires that were more then .030" out.)Of course , as will happen, the truest wheels were generally those with some rust and the pretty ones were not very true. Oh well! Also, I think a fella could maybe use something like a 5x5 1/4" spacer ring without trouble. Dan Mpls. Mn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIVNIK Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Thank you guys for all the info! Since the wheels have no tires on them I will fit them up to the hubs first chance I get and hopefully be able to detect any problems. I would think if the wheel comes in contact with the drum fins before it seats on the hub it will be easy to sense using an unshod wheel. Will let you know ........but those wire hubcaps are actually starting to look pretty good again......Rivnik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K. Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 So If I follow this thread correctly, 1st gen road wheels had no register ring but fit over the axle flange and were a "hub centric" fit. 67-70 wheels will fit but have a register ring whose opening is either too narrow to fit over the axle flange or just in the way so it is removed making the wheels a "lug centric" fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) So If I follow this thread correctly, 1st gen road wheels had no register ring but fit over the axle flange and were a "hub centric" fit. 67-70 wheels will fit but have a register ring whose opening is either too narrow to fit over the axle flange or just in the way so it is removed making the wheels a "lug centric" fit.Hi Paul, Yes, you have the right idea, but I may not have properly communicated the exact years the register ring was required, in the context of the thread. The `64 wheels, which technically were only offered on the `64 Wildcat, do not have any register ring on the backside because the `64 cars have the large style front hub and rear axle flange. As a result, in `64 only, the backside of the nose of the wheel is a snug fit over the hub and axle flange. Starting in `65, the wheels were manufactured with the register ring, because the hub and axle flange was made smaller in diameter starting in `65, and the wheel no longer indexed on the hub. The addition of the register ring allowed the wheel to once again index onto the hub/axle flange. In `65 thru `70 years the register ring is a snug fit over the front hub and the rear axle flange. TomPS Interesting that you used the terms "hub centric" and "lug centric". These are great descriptive terms and remind me of the system transition which has occurred in the heavy duty truck industry over the last decade. The current wheel system is called "hub piloted" (previous systems are called "Dayton" and "Budd" systems) and exclusively uses the hub indexing concept, NOT A BEVELED LUG NUT, to center/index the wheel. The lug nut seating surfaces and lug nuts themselves are NO LONGER BEVELED so the wheel is exclusively centered/indexed by a tight fit over the hub, NO LONGER USING THE LUG NUTS to center the wheel. It is very common, if hub piloted wheels have been in place for more than several years, and especially since newly manufactured, to require a sledge hammer applied to the edge of the wheel rim to remove this wheel system from its hub. I have never experienced this phenomenon in a wheel which is lug centric. Edited August 29, 2015 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul K. Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) Hi Paul, Yes, you have the right idea, but I may not have properly communicated the exact years the register ring was required, in the context of the thread. The `64 wheels, which technically were only offered on the `64 Wildcat, do not have any register ring on the backside because the `64 cars have the large style front hub and rear axle flange. As a result, in `64 only, the backside of the nose of the wheel is a snug fit over the hub and axle flange. Starting in `65, the wheels were manufactured with the register ring, because the hub and axle flange was made smaller in diameter starting in `65, and the wheel no longer indexed on the hub. The addition of the register ring allowed the wheel to once again index onto the hub/axle flange. In `65 thru `70 years the register ring is a snug fit over the front hub and the rear axle flange. TomPS Interesting that you used the terms "hub centric" and "lug centric". These are great descriptive terms and remind me of the system transition which has occurred in the heavy duty truck industry over the last decade. The current wheel system is called "hub piloted" (previous systems are called "Dayton" and "Budd" systems) and exclusively uses the hub indexing concept, NOT A BEVELED LUG NUT, to center/index the wheel. The lug nut seating surfaces and lug nuts themselves are NO LONGER BEVELED so the wheel is exclusively centered/indexed by a tight fit over the hub, NO LONGER USING THE LUG NUTS to center the wheel. It is very common, if hub piloted wheels have been in place for more than several years, and especially since newly manufactured, to require a sledge hammer applied to the edge of the wheel rim to remove this wheel system from its hub. I have never experienced this phenomenon in a wheel which is lug centric. Hub and Lug Centric are common terms in auto repair textbooks I have used as an instructor. Edited August 30, 2015 by Paul K. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flh73 Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 (edited) My observations with trying to install 895 71 and up Road Wheels on a 63 Riv. First my opinion this is not a good idea. They fit the front ok but as said earlier this would be lug centric, but fits over hub. There's only about 1/4 in clearance from wheel tire etc. to the upper control arm ball joint. The rear not so good. I set drum into wheel off car. The fins hit before contacting the hub. There's about .030 gap between the wheel hub and the brake drum hub. I than installed the wheel tire onto the rear and hand torqued thinking it would hit the fins of the drum before the flange. This was not the case the center of the wheel hit the axel hub first. So now the drum has not contacted the wheel but neither has the wheel contacted the hub leaving the drum unsecured, not good!I think I'm going to be looking for the older wheels instead of spacers etc. to make this work.ThanksGary Edited October 15, 2015 by flh73 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIVNIK Posted October 4, 2015 Author Share Posted October 4, 2015 Steelman mentioned that these wheels are plentiful, but I haven't found that to be the case, at least for proper wheels for the '65. Even the companies that reproduce Rallye wheels seem to make them for every model except the '65 Riv. If anyone has a set in good condition (straight), please let me know. I will pay a fair price for them and will even partial trade the ones I have (see opening post.....only three are straight but all are in nice driver cond.) Thanks, Rivnik (Drew) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dantana Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Spacers are not a terrible idea if you get quality ones made. Hub-centric spacers are best case scenario and will work great. A 3-5mm spacer hub-centric spacer should do the trick.These guys can make them custom for you. I used to own a custom wheel wholesale company and have used them many many times. https://www.motorsport-tech.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodneybeauchamp Posted February 28, 2016 Share Posted February 28, 2016 Hub centric vs lug centric. So when looking at after market wheels it would be best to avoid those with a multi fit bolt patten and get one that is 63/64 Buick bolt pattern specific, ie fits the bolt pattern and also the large hub? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast_dave Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 Bringing this tread back from the dead: Can anyone recommend a firm that can be trusted to refurbish and re-chrome/repaint original 65 GS Rims? By refurbish - to clarify - I mean that they can check each wheel for trueness, and repair if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreed Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Rally America - http://www.rallyamerica.com/Contact_Us.html They do very nice work but can be a little slow . Last set I set them about a year ago was 6 months but they were having trouble with their polisher - maybe better now KReed ROA 14549 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Fast-Dave, In your copy of the Riview, read Ray's comments on Rally America. Page 30, third column in the latest issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fast_dave Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 32 minutes ago, RivNut said: Fast-Dave, In your copy of the Riview, read Ray's comments on Rally America. Page 30, third column in the latest issue. RivNut/Ed - Minutes before I re-checked this thread for any activity, I was just looking in the CLASSIFIEDS of this month's RIVIEW and saw the note from RAY that Rally America is not accepting Riviera Wheels for re-chrome work... Guess I'll have to continue researching this subject on the 'Net... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moran75 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 8/27/2015 at 9:23 PM, RivNut said: I have a small impact wrench that tightens the nuts to about 80 lbs. I torque them from there. It's just faster than spinning a 4-way, and it takes them off quicker. I do start them by hand to make sure they're threaded correctly. Ed Hi Ed ....out of interest what do you torque them upto?...I believe it’s different for Rally wheels... cheers kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 100 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atencioee Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 On 8/27/2015 at 5:59 PM, Seafoam65 said: My car has 64 wheels without the so called register ring that were installed in 1967.....They've worked fine for 48 years....nothing to worry about. Has anyone found a good paint match for the original light metallic silver webs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted April 2 Share Posted April 2 (edited) Delete Edited April 3 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 According to Gene Guarnere the correct name for the color on the wheels you a referring is “ Shadow Grey”. The PPG and Ditzler color charts do not have the paint code nor the color listed. It could very well be I overlooked and missed things that are listed. Lator Gator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atencioee Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 18 minutes ago, Turbinator said: According to Gene Guarnere the correct name for the color on the wheels you a referring is “ Shadow Grey”. The PPG and Ditzler color charts do not have the paint code nor the color listed. It could very well be I overlooked and missed things that are listed. Lator Gator Thanks Bob, good to know. The charts that I've seen say "Light Metallic Silver, Satin." I'm wondering if anyone has found a paint match that is close to the original color, other than having a paint shop match the color. It seems most paint their webs black, which looks really nice, but I admit that silver or gray color looks nice and unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 17 minutes ago, atencioee said: but I admit that silver or gray color looks nice and unique I believe and happy to be corrected the first year (1965) was “ Shadow Gray”. It was dark enough to knock on black’s color door. Unless you have someone who actually witnessed the original guys like me really don’t know. There are items about these cars I think no one knows. They are production cars and massed produced cars can have differences in the same model year. Some gents research when,what ,and where and I applaud their desire to get things right. Id never fault a person for doing their best. Later Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 The correct color for 64 wheels is argent silver, which is the same paint used on the grills on GM cars all through the sixties, and on their painted rally wheels like on the Pontiac rally wheels. The 65 wheels are painted a medium charcoal color. Since the picture on this thread of my wheel was taken I have repainted the centers of my wheels the correct charcoal color. My wheels still have their excellent original chrome finish, as the car hasn't been wet since 1967. Here is a more recent pic with the charcoal on the wheels...... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Outstanding automobile for sure. A very good photograph indeed. I understand the 64 15” Buick Roadwheels (Rallye) were made for the Wildcat. The Riviera got their Buick Roadwheels in 1965 with the charcoal gray. The Rallye name tag was for the 14” Skylark wheels? I have not witnessed the history of the wheels nor have I read anything I can remember nailing down the description of said wheels. For instance some folks call a car wheel a rim. I call the call wheel a wheel. Others refer to the gasoline combustion engine as a motor. I always thought a motor was powered by electricity. I suppose it all has to do with how people describe things where you grew up. Specific specifications are what things are accurately described or written. Later Gator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 On a 1965 Riviera order form, the box to be checked off for said wheels was 'chrome wheels.' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 In `64 Buick described the chrome wheel option as "Formula Five" wheels with the "Five" depicted as a roman numeral. After `64 Buick simply described the optional wheels as "chrome wheels". Tom mooney 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atencioee Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 11 hours ago, Seafoam65 said: The correct color for 64 wheels is argent silver, which is the same paint used on the grills on GM cars all through the sixties, and on their painted rally wheels like on the Pontiac rally wheels. The 65 wheels are painted a medium charcoal color. Since the picture on this thread of my wheel was taken I have repainted the centers of my wheels the correct charcoal color. My wheels still have their excellent original chrome finish, as the car hasn't been wet since 1967. Here is a more recent pic with the charcoal on the wheels...... A beautiful car indeed and those wheels look great!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Tom, I've been searching the internet for some time for the history of the Formula Five Wheel. I looked for an order form for a 1964 Buick, thinking that may have been the origin, but found nothing. Thank for your “historical” input. For future reference, what would be the preference to use when we referring to the Formula Five - chrome - rally - road wheel. Perhaps we can come up with a common name. Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I have a set of original 65 “Formula Five” wheels that have never been repainted. On web of one wheel still had the original (but 58 year old) paint on it. I had a couple of cans that looked close. Both are Duplicolor paints. One is the Cast Coat Iron engine enamel; the other is their Graphite Performance wheel paint. They are pretty close in color but I think the engine paint is closer to the old sample I have of the one wheel, The engine paint is not as glossy as the wheel paint. Originally the wheels were satin. I do not have any satin clear to tone down the gloss. Either should pass muster as an original Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seafoam65 Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 5 hours ago, RivNut said: I have a set of original 65 “Formula Five” wheels that have never been repainted. On web of one wheel still had the original (but 58 year old) paint on it. I had a couple of cans that looked close. Both are Duplicolor paints. One is the Cast Coat Iron engine enamel; the other is their Graphite Performance wheel paint. They are pretty close in color but I think the engine paint is closer to the old sample I have of the one wheel, The engine paint is not as glossy as the wheel paint. Originally the wheels were satin. I do not have any satin clear to tone down the gloss. Either should pass muster as an original I used the cast iron engine paint on my wheels.....most brands of those paints have a satin finish, I know mine did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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