Is "Flipping" dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean, detestable, vile, or illegal ???

[John_S_in_Penna]

5 minutes ago, JamesR said:

I'm trying to sell one of my old cars, and I'll lose a fair bit of money (by my standards) but I can honestly say that I've improved the car from the condition I got it in.

James, you've enjoyed your hobby, and done

service to the hobby by preserving a piece of history.

 

But picture this very possible scenario, based on

comments and actions by dealers we've seen:

 

DEALER TO WIDOW:  Mrs. Smith, you and your husband

had that car for 20 years, improved it, and enjoyed it.

This is a hobby.  Come down on your price!  You can't

expect to make a profit on all the money you put into it.

 

NEXT STEP:  Dealer tries to mark it up for an immediate

100% profit, all for himself.

[Peter Gariepy]

1 hour ago, JamesR said:

Flipping isn't dishonest, but flippers (in the common use of the term) rarely see themselves as the stewards of old cars. This is a CONTRAST to most/many dealers who specialize in selling antique vehicles. There's nothing at all wrong with profit, as many of these dealers make, but my advice to old car purchasers is to stay away from fly by night flippers who haven't invested dearly in equipment, experience,  property and establishing a good reputation. Cheap repairs and a lack of appreciation for reasonable originality are two if the issues you run into with flippers.   I'm trying to sell one of my old cars, and I'll lose a fair bit of money (by my standards) but I can honestly say that I've improved the car from the condition I got it in.

 

 

True, but just as people have the right to be flippers, other people have the right to think negatively about them and voice their opinions.

 

The entire premise of the AACA forum, which I founded 26 years ago, has always been to share information and opinions.

 

Like you, I have an opinion, and it’s every bit as valuable as yours.

 

This thread and many of its respondents vilify “flippers.” So be it, but I disagree. Frankly, I’d wager that most of the people condemning flippers have themselves bought low and sold high. I’d bet they’ve held out for top dollar when selling a vehicle and felt thrilled when they snagged a car or part below market value. For those who have done this and still criticize flippers, that’s nothing short of hypocrisy.

[Hans1965]

6 minutes ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Frankly, I’d wager that most of the people condemning flippers have themselves bought low and sold high.

I don't think so. 

[Peter Gariepy]

2 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

NO ONE HERE SHOULD BE TEMPTED TO OVERLOOK, EXCUSE, OR DISMISS WRONG-DOING, or blame a victim who was at the wrong end of a fraudulent transaction.

 

At no point did I suggest that anyone should overlook an unethical seller—quite the opposite. In all purchases, whether it’s an old car or a toaster, buyer should always use common sense and be fully aware of the principle behind caveat emptor. 

To use your term: "No one should...  blame a victim who was at the wrong end of a fraudulent transaction." Sorry, but a buyer must take responsibility first for allowing themselves to be duped.

 

It’s ALWAYS up to the buyer to:

 

1. Know exactly what they’re buying and from who

2. Decide what they’re willing to pay for it

 

Get stuck with a lemon? The responsibility lies with the buyer first for not doing their homework.

Paid too much? That’s on the buyer for not doing their due diligence.

 

---

 

Caveat emptor
A Latin phrase that means “let the buyer beware.” It’s a principle in commerce that places the responsibility on the buyer to perform due diligence before making a purchase. The buyer assumes the risk of the product’s condition and quality, so if any issues arise after the purchase, it’s generally the buyer’s responsibility, not the seller’s. This principle encourages buyers to thoroughly inspect, research, and assess any product before completing a transaction.

[Peter Gariepy]

2 hours ago, JamesR said:

stay away from fly by night flippers who haven't invested dearly in equipment, experience,  property and establishing a good reputation

In a perfect world, yes. 

But how exactly is any buyer to know any of this without doing their due diligence?
With that said, you're not buying a seller, you're buying a car. Irrespective of the seller, it remains up to the buyer to know the car inside and out.

• Ask people in this forum, local club or friends their opinion of the car
• Ask other owners of the same car about the vehicle's weak points
• Bring a friend when inspecting the car
• Seek info on the reputation of the seller (easier said than done for the casual flipper)
• Research old car value guides
• DO YOUR HOMEWORK!

 

If the car or seller or price isnt to your liking... walk away.

No one is forcing you to buy the car.

[pkhammer]

  I responded earlier in this thread because I do a fair amount of buying and selling. I never cherry pick or try to take advantage of anyone. I have purchased entire estates that contained valuable parts (mixed with a lot of junk) that all would've ended up at the recycler had I not gotten involved. I buy it all and sweep the floor before I leave. Every seller I have been involved with have been extremely pleased. I have over $50k invested in a 20 year old diesel pickup and two trailers. I pay help to assist me in the hard work of loading, hauling, sorting, cleaning and re-selling parts. I sell everything at reasonable prices considering the effort and expense we put into all of this. This fall at Hershey I will have at least $1,000 invested in the trip before I get the the trailer unloaded. I do it though because I love it.

   Does anyone really feel that the hobby would be better off if I sell my truck and trailers, stay home instead of setting up at swap meets, and let the parts go to the scrapper? Are the critics here going to step up and buy sheds and barns full of stuff in order to save it?

  I do agree that there are some unethical things that take place with any type of buying and selling, but please don't lump us all into that category. Some of us work hard to support the hobby and aren't just after a quick buck.

Edited August 14 by pkhammer
bad wording (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 7/27/2024 at 7:34 PM, Bhigdog said:

You guys are trying to untangle a bowl of spaghetti. It,s a question with no correct answer. Every sale is different.

Not long ago i put an old pin ball machine on fb market place. I paid $20 for it maybe 20 years ago. My asking price was $900. Guy contacts me and says you,re not asking enough i,ll give you $1500.

I did the deal for 1500.

Should i have listed the game for what i paid? Was he going to flip the game? Did he over pay? Was i ripped off? Was he?

Of course there is no correct answer. I didn,t ask why he paid more, nor did i care. I made my sale and he got what he wanted.

There,s no one size fits all here other than it,s really really poor form to take advantage of an enfeebled person......bob

Simplicity implies ignorance, and when you compare buying a pin ball machine for some aristocrats man cave to a Detroit Lubricator carburetor, which has sat on a shelf for fifty years, and is the last part needed for the 75 year old hobbyist to get the antique car, he has built over the past 25 years running……once before he dies, is ludicrous.

Pricing of antique car parts is more based on the idea that old people have money to waste, and they will soon die anyway, so I might as well get my share while the getting is good.

Besides, my Mercedes convertible is well deserved because while the old guy was on Omaha beach or fighting his way across France, I was tolling over a full load of really tough college stuff……and the football was rough too.

Capitalism is the American way, and making deals is entrepreneurial, but price gouging and scalping is still one heck of a way to prove it works.

Jack

Edited August 15 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 8/2/2024 at 8:25 AM, Reicholzheimer said:

Can't wait till I start flipping at Hershey. Mostly all advertising items. 

I sincerely wish my situation permitted me to travel to Hershey and engage in some friendly barter, banter and BS, and walk away with a new friend and maybe some headlight bezels for my old Plymouth.

Likewise, I would hope we spend some productive, enjoyable time, and, yes, maybe even swap some memorable tales which adds some sentimental value to the set of antique spark plugs you will take home.

I will never rely on any of my old machines for anything other than a reason to get out of bed in the morning, and getting some good sleep because I had something to do, and someone to talk to which shared my interests.

I found the fender skirts in the moldy trunk of my old Plymouth, and now they add a tad of class which may be appreciated by the next soul who is gifted the car when I can no longer appreciate it.

But, if I sell the fender skirts, and put a dollar t price tag on the car, someone, who may rightfully deserve and need it, will never have the pleasure I have experienced while it was in my stable.

By the way….I interpret the term “flipper”, as it applies to cars, houses, boats, or whatever to mean a person who acquires something for the sole purpose of reselling it at a profit…and the item has no more than a material value. I interpret people with similar interests, who acquire parts which may be in excess of their own needs, and are willing to provide these parts to a fellow hobbyist at a fair and reasonable price a “friend” and a valuable asset whom I can trust for providing  information, advice and fellowship, as well as rubber and steel parts, as I pursue a chosen hobby.

Jack

 

[Peter Gariepy]

The topic title shaped the narrative: “Is ‘Flipping’ dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean, detestable, vile, or illegal???” It might be phrased as a question, but the intent seems clear.

 

The title could just as easily have been, “What do you think about people who flip cars?”

 

Flippers aren’t “dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean, detestable, vile,” and flipping certainly isn’t “illegal.”

 

Are there unethical people who flip cars? Sure. But it’s ridiculous to paint all flippers with that broad brush.

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, Jack Bennett said:

Simplicity implies ignorance, and when you compare buying a pin ball machine for some aristocrats man cave to a Detroit Lubricator carburetor, which has sat on a shelf for fifty years, and is the last part needed for the 75 year old hobbyist to get the antique car, he has built over the past 25 years running……once before he dies, is ludicrous.

I once sold a 70 year old pinball machine to a man in San Francisco. It sat in the back store room of a shop, gathering dust,  for at least 50 years. At the time there were only 7 other known survivors. It was the missing piece of his collection. He sent a moving company van for it and they very carefully wrapped and crated it for the trip. I'm certain that collector felt the same exhilaration when he first saw it light up as your 75 year old hobbyist did with first note of exhaust from a car he likely will never drive.

To suggest or even think otherwise is indeed............Ludicrous...........Bob

 

 

Edited August 15 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[JamesR]

21 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Frankly, I’d wager that most of the people condemning flippers have themselves bought low and sold high.

I've yet to make money on an old vehicle, at least in the last 30 years (before then, I honestly can't recall.) GENERALLY SPEAKING, the people who make money on antique cars nowadays are either big operations who buy '69 Dodge Chargers or '57 Chevy convertibles (etc.) and restore them, or buy and sell high end collector cars....OR...they're flippers.

 

Making money should never be vilified, though. I and many many others have made money on investments by buying low and selling high. I'd just rather see a low priced old car go to someone who wants to own it for it's historic and aesthetic value.

[JV Puleo]

I feel as if this thread is constantly mixing apples and oranges. Again, in my mind  a"flipp" is a quick purchase and sale with a minimal or no effort on the part of the seller to do anything except find a buyer. That is far cry from buying a large stock of NOS parts and gradually selling them off...or the honest dealer who takes a car in and make's sure it's at least driveable before passing it on, hopefully making a profit or even buying a house in poor condition and fixing it for sale. As far as comparing it to retail sellers...how many "flippers" stand behind their sale and are willing to take it back if it proves to have some disastrous hidden fault? That is something retailers deal with every day. Years ago I purchased such a car. I asked all the right questions and got lies for answers. I was severely pressed for time and simply couldn't go the route of putting it up on a lift to check myself and the truth is, despite that, I do not want to live in a place where we must presume that everyone is lying to us. Caveat Emptor is a rule of law, not of ethics and the two are not the same thing.

Edited August 15 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Grimy]

19 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

I feel as if this thread is constantly mixing apples and oranges. again, in my mind  a"flipp" is a quick purchase and sale with a minimal or no effort on the part of the seller to do anything except find a buyer. That is far cry from buying a large stock of NOS parts and gradually selling them off...or the honest dealer who takes a car in and make's sure it's at least driveable before passing it on, hopefully making a profit or even buying a house in poor condition and fixing it for sale. As far as comparing it to retail sellers...how many "flippers" stand behind their sale and are willing to take it back if it proves to have some disastrous hidden fault? That is something retailers deal with every day. Years ago I purchased such a car. I asked all the right questions and got lies for answers. I was severely pressed for time and simply couldn't go the route of putting it up on a lift to check myself and the truth is, despite that, I do not want to live in a place where we must presume that everyone is lying to us. Caveat Emptor is a rule of law, not of ethics and the two are not the same thing.

We see the "bad" flippers' ads with the cars still on the trailers....  🙂 

[SteveMaz]

22 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

Flippers aren’t “dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean, detestable, vile,” and flipping certainly isn’t “illegal.”

 

Are there unethical people who flip cars? Sure. But it’s ridiculous to paint all flippers with that broad brush.

I agree with these statements, but "flipper" always has the negative connotation, in my mind, of someone who buys something flawed, "fixes" or hides the flaws as cheaply as possible, then sells it as something more than it actually is. May be more applicable to real estate than old cars, but I just can't get past the impression, even though I know it's not always the case.

[JV Puleo]

I agree...it has a very negative connotation to me as well and I've been in business my entire life. Buying and selling at a profit is something I wish I was better at.

[John Kelso]

I have sold and consigned cars with dealers/flippers simply because I didn't want to deal with most of the lookers. I knew they would need to ask more than I wanted simply to stay in business.

I never had an issue with this. I have done business with Matt Harwood  and Tom Leferriere and would do so again.

[Tom C]

I know a guy that would flip a picture frame if he could make a quarter on it.

So…..Joe buys a car from Jim and finds out a week later that John loves the car and sells it to John for a profit.

It’s flipping like a pancake and Joe,Jim and John are all happy !

It’s not a whole lot different than day trading.

[pre1939chrysler]

Flipping creates a stereotype, compared to used car salesmen, Bible salesmen and any other other hugster. No it is not any above in the title but is based on an individuals perception.

Some people do it for a hobby, others for a living.

[20 T Speedster]

If I "Flip" something and make a profit, I do it simply because, what the heck, I need the money.

When other guys guys flip and make profits, then they do it because they're "dishonest, morally wrong, despicable, mean detestable, vile..."

 

Sorry guys, sometimes I just can't help being sardonic.

 

 

Edited August 17 by 20 T Speedster
typo (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

33 minutes ago, 20 T Speedster said:

sardonic.

Good word...............Bob

[John_S_in_Penna]

Just yesterday, I found a dealer who had

interesting cars, described flaws forthrightly,

and had realistic prices.  Out of the blue

I telephoned him to tell my appreciation.

We talked about cars, and the market, for

about 20 minutes, and he even shook his head

about so many others' unrealistic asking prices.

He deserved compliments.  "You made my day,"

he said at the end of our conversation.

 

I've bookmarked his site.  Good needs to be 

acknowledged too.

[John_S_in_Penna]

I came across this video of a 1973 Cadillac

convertible.  The buyer evidently paid $35,000,

trusting a Florida dealer who claimed the car

had had a total restoration.  Disappointed, he

was now reselling the car through an apparently

honest dealer.  Despite the first dealer's claims,

 

---Seats were redone in vinyl, not leather.

---Steering wheel woodgrain insert was bad

---Rear bumper fillers were not intact

---Paint had some chips

---Front bumper impact strip was rough.

Etc.

 

Remember, blame the dishonest one, not the

less-than-wise buyer.  Evil is worse than foolishness.

 

 

[Bhigdog]

36 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I came across this video of a 1973 Cadillac

convertible.  The buyer evidently paid $35,000,

trusting a Florida dealer who claimed the car

had had a total restoration.  Disappointed, he

was now reselling the car through an apparently

honest dealer.  Despite the first dealer's claims,

 

---Seats were redone in vinyl, not leather.

---Steering wheel woodgrain insert was bad

---Rear bumper fillers were not intact

---Paint had some chips

---Front bumper impact strip was rough.

Etc.

 

Remember, blame the dishonest one, not the

less-than-wise buyer.  Evil is worse than foolishness.

 

 

Total restoration is a totally subjective term.......buyer beware......bob

Edited August 30 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Highlander160]

I've been at it since my teens. Now I'm 20🤣 . I WISH! Seriously tho, now over 50+ years of this and I'll do it til I can't. I saw the term "quick buck artist" tossed in somewhere and I admit I didn't read em all. All I can say is I wish I was. What everyone likes to just discount is the value of the effort req'd to empty collections or drag off a car that's had its time and must move on. Sellers who sell to us folk typically don't wanna deal with it. Happy to get what they need and it's done. Sometimes I'll just take the car and sell it for them. Fluff n fix and offer it for sale. I get paid for the work and a portion of the proceeds, they pay nothing til its sold. If they change their mind I get paid for the work. Fair all around. Have I been lucky now and then? Sure, not very often tho. Others only seem luckier sometimes because you don't hear the downsides. There's a lot involved is buying and selling. Armchair quarterbacks need not apply and we don't seek your approval. However, I just got a shiney and nice _____________, just what you're looking for. Holla back...

[60FlatTop]

In the past 10 years I have nearly stopped picking up items for resale. My age, cost of selling, attitude of buyers have all contributed to this. What I have passed on has mostly been scrapped.

 

Oh, well. Many will be happy I didn't imagine a demographic relocation like I did in 2013.

 

[arcticbuicks]

WOO HOO !.......I just realized I might qualify to  be a flipper !.......and I am sure glad I am !..... and got what I could for each of these fast right off the trailer and back for another.....and boy were each of the guys happy to get one ......I got paid well and they knew I got them for nothing ......and they would all be crushed if I didnt grab and flip em.........so grab all you can and fip them fast to save them .....and supply the hobby

 

Edited September 10 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

3 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

...I might qualify to  be a flipper!

...they would all be crushed if I didn't grab and flip 'em.

So grab all you can and fip them fast to save them and supply the hobby.

Motives are as important as acts.

It sounds like you had a good purpose--

not merely money for yourself--and you

were properly rewarded.

You're better than a flippant flipper! 

Thanks for saving those cars, for preserving

that part of history for the future..

 

Edited September 10 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

I'm really confused here.

So the way I understand it now is if you buy a car real cheap, sell it right off the trailer at a fat profit, and as long as you say you're doing it to "save them" it is not only OK but you will actually get a thank you from the anti flipper cohort.

Oy Vey!

Could some one please document a set of rules complete with all caveats, loop holes, work arounds, ands, ifs and buts so a seller does not commit a moral faux pas.................Bob

[60FlatTop]

11 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

I'm really confused here.

So the way I understand it now is if you buy a car real cheap, sell it right off the trailer at a fat profit, and as long as you say you're doing it to "save them" it is not only OK but you will actually get a thank you from the anti flipper cohort.

Oy Vey!

Could some one please document a set of rules complete with all caveats, loop holes, work arounds, ands, ifs and buts so a seller does not commit a moral faux pas.................Bob

In compliance with all the rules that are good and favorable a careful examination of this flip on a trailer shows no evidence of a "familiar", cat, goose, or symbol of such. That makes in shine in the light of day.

[John_S_in_Penna]

1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

I'm really confused here.

You're not confused, Bob.  Let your own conscience guide you.

[Bhigdog]

9 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

You're not confused, Bob.  Let your own conscience guide you.

It always has, John.

I just don't want to run afoul of other's consciences. Hence the need for a clear, detailed, and concise set of rules/guidelines for buying and selling.

I'm thinking maybe a decalogue of 10 rules would cover it.

Carved on 2 stone tablets would be nice...........Bob

 

 

 

 

[arcticbuicks]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

I'm really confused here.

So the way I understand it now is if you buy a car real cheap, sell it right off the trailer at a fat profit, and as long as you say you're doing it to "save them" it is not only OK but you will actually get a thank you from the anti flipper cohort.

Oy Vey!

Could some one please document a set of rules complete with all caveats, loop holes, work arounds, ands, ifs and buts so a seller does not commit a moral faux pas.................Bob

Bob....I even get friends calling back...."Hey...you got anymore cars you wanna flip ?.....call me first when you still got it on the trailer !"

[arcticbuicks]

I also like to see other cars for sale in a photo ad right on a trailer by other flippers dusty just out of a garage.....it usually means this a car that has been sitting many years out of sight and fresh find ......some really good cars turn up this way .......and good ones to watch out for sometimes ......maybe compare it to finding a painting in a attic or a yard sale ....for $5. and instantly off to an auction the painting goes .....and fetches $1.385 million ......maybe consider some of these flipper trailer cars like a found Rembrandt in a attic !

It dosnt matter if it is a car or a Rembrandt or sunken gold treasure.......it is found and brought into the market and people eager to buy .....and will be flipped again possibly for many times the known price it last sold for ..........and not one of us dosnt dream of that Rembrandt $5 find

Edited September 10 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

25 minutes ago, arcticbuicks said:

Bob....I even get friends calling back...."Hey...you got anymore cars you wanna flip ?.....call me first when you still got it on the trailer !"

Not passing judgement, AB. I just plain don't understand the logic or reasoning behind some of the posts.

There seems to be all kinds of nebulous rules of reselling cars and parts those rules being bent at will to fit ones perception of the deal.

I'm just trying to sort out the moral rules of engagement. For instance, at what point does the "good" of saving an old car over rule the "bad" of turning a profit?

How can I walk  an acceptably straight line if the only rule given is "follow your conscience" or it's "for the good of the hobby"

Again...........Oy Vey.............Bob

 

 

Edited September 10 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Peter Gariepy]

RULES? HOW ABOUT COMMON SENSE?

 

Sellers are expected to be honest, ethical, and transparent when presenting their items for sale. However, it’s no secret that used car salespeople often prioritize their own interests, which shouldn’t surprise anyone.

 

Unless the seller engages in blatantly illegal actions, it is the buyer’s full responsibility to ensure they receive what they expect for the price they agree to pay.

 

Caveat Emptor: the buyer is solely responsible for evaluating the quality and suitability of goods before completing a purchase.

 

 

[Grimy]

Has anyone seen the brief article in the current HCCA magazine by a recent widow bemoaning her husband's friends and other collectors who want his parts free or for a minuscule amount?  She has a pretty good idea what he paid....

 

For those of us of a certain age, I suggest tagging parts to identify (1) what they fit, (2) perhaps a tearoff section of the tag with suggested quick-unload price, and (3) prospective recipient if free.  I've begun this process and it's daunting, but needs to be done.

 

We've all laughed at jokes about our widows selling our stuff for the prices we told the spouse we paid for it...but remember that such humor is funny because it strikes home.

[arcticbuicks]

I am sure when i die 99 % of my belongings will be "Flipped"........it sure wont all be kept .......house ,cars ,business ,tools parts .....1000s of items put out into the market all flipped even by close family ........into the market and for sure much of it flipped again

[60FlatTop]

On 7/27/2024 at 7:11 PM, Crusty Trucker said:

I really get tired of hearing, "Well, he only paid $XXX for it and now he wants $ZZZ.   How does he dare to do that?"

Back to the first post, a few years back Dave Ramsey, the radio money guy, recommended a book written by Daniel Lappin called Thou Shalt Prosper: https://www.amazon.com/Thou-Shall-Prosper-Commandments-Making/dp/0470485884

 

I bought it, read it twice, and have picked it up and read random pages.

 

One part I like is when Lappin was young his father took him to a hill overlooking the Rhine River where two loaded coal barges were passing, one headed north, one headed south. That was the introduction of the value of knowledge. and its use.

 

Many see little or no value in the knowledge they have accrued. 

 

Good book, though. I do not receive a small percentage of sales generated through that link.

[pkhammer]

I only see flipping as unacceptable when deceit is involved. Deceit when buying or selling. As long as communication is honest and upfront, I see nothing unethical about making  a profit. That in my opinion makes all the difference.

[Highlander160]

I got more here. I've had people ask me what I paid for something. I have a standard answer. "Paid? I didn't pay a thing. In fact I got paid to get rid of it all and got to keep whatever I wanted!" The faces made are suitable for framing sometimes. I've had a few get hostile too. "And so you want $X,XXX.00? And you didn't pay anything? What a rip off!" "Oh no. I didn't get the memo that I owe it you for 10 cents on the dollar. I'm so sorry, but if it's too much for you I understand." That's pretty much a real conversation I had with 2 different people over the last dozen years or so. Who was the bad guy here, the mope who asked me that or me for being quite sardonic about it? I'm interested in your answers. Full disclosure, this was after some volley over the price.