Engine damage or life in dust bowl

[tcslr]

Watching old film and photographs of cars operating during giant dusters made me wonder…. Was there any info on engine life or failure due to the dust. Valve seat damage, pistons, rings, etc. seems failure would have been much quicker. Or on cars that attempted to traverse deserts in round-the-world events. 

[Fordy]

My Hupps don't run air filters, so it probably was an issue in the days of unpaved roads and the aforementioned dust storms. Not something I have given much thought to until just now. It surely had a detrimental effect on engine life.

Steve

[JACK M]

I remember when Mt. St. Helens erupted.

Air filters getting plugged up on the emergency vehicles made the news.

[JV Puleo]

Short answer, very much so. I don't think any brass cars came with an air filter and they were driven mostly on dirt roads. Road dust was a huge problem but mostly for the drivers and passengers. They don't seem to have given much thought to the machine. The most obvious result was worn cylinders and pistons in a very  short time (by modern standards) but, of course, they usually weren't driven a tremendous number of miles and had a short life expectancy (at the most 10 years) so the result is more apparent to those of us trying to restore them than it would have been to the original owners.

[Bud Tierney]

On St Helen;s believe there was  a report that WSP or some Sheriff was converting 30-40 gal barrels to air filters to keep a few on the road...shoveled 3=4 inches of ash off my street in Portland; the big worry was silica and future lung problems, but don't recall any major illnesses...

Antone who ran the old oil bath air cleaners in southern AZ/NM, and cleaned them, found out what was in the air even if it looked clear...

[wayne sheldon]

History in the context of its time.

The early automobile was such an improvement over horse and buggy, that issues like freshening the valves in the engine every 8000 miles was barely a minor inconvenience.

There were quite a number of automobiles that famously ran fifty-, or over a hundred-, even two hundred-thousand miles "without any engine repair" or rebuild. Pierce Arrows, Studebakers, even a 1911 Hupmobile made similar claims (all pre1925 cars)! (The 1911 Hupmobile story is well worth reading!) I am not sure I believe most of those claims, but I am sure there is some truth to some of them.

However, back in those days, seven to ten thousand miles was expected regrinding or replacing the valves in most cars. And around twenty to thirty thousand miles expected new rings and usually some additional work. That sort of "reality" is largely forgotten today. Of course, a lot of cars did go farther without any major work being done.

 

Automobiles were a huge step upward for modern man, and the people then knew that and appreciated it. They didn't think riding in an open car for fifteen miles without a heater and in a cold heavy rain was a hardship, because they remembered riding a horse at less than half the speed, being out in it for more than twice as long, and then having to take care of the horse when they got home.

 

 

Edited July 22 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[Billy Kingsley]

Perhaps that played a role in why the estimated life expectancy was so low?

 

edit: in relation to the life expectancy of the cars as posted by JV Puleo

Edited July 22 by Billy Kingsley (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

There is a very good book titled "America Adopts the Automobile" and though I've forgotten who the author was I believe it was a doctoral thesis. It's written from an academic perspective so does not deal with the mechanical aspects but gives a very good picture of the place of the automobile in America before WWI. In any case, one of the statistics mentioned is that generally cars depreciated about 50% per year. Thus a $2500 car was worth $1250 when a year old, $625 when two years old, a little over 300 when three years old etc. Given the mileage most of them accumulated, most were practically worthless before they wore out. Even a ten year life expectancy may be a stretch. Look at any photo taken around 1920 and see how many 1910-1912 cars you see in it. The really remarkable thing is that any survived.

[prewarnut]

7 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

There is a very good book titled "America Adopts the Automobile" and though I've forgotten who the author was I believe it was a doctoral thesis. It's written from an academic perspective so does not deal with the mechanical aspects but gives a very good picture of the place of the automobile in America before WWI. In any case, one of the statistics mentioned is that generally cars depreciated about 50% per year. Thus a $2500 car was worth $1250 when a year old, $625 when two years old, a little over 300 when three years old etc. Given the mileage most of them accumulated, most were practically worthless before they wore out. Even a ten year life expectancy may be a stretch. Look at any photo taken around 1920 and see how many 1910-1912 cars you see in it. The really remarkable thing is that any survived.

 

Proof of this is the 1926 CT DMV records which are on-line. I searched through all 74,000 registrations (for something) and while not writing down everything I can say that most registrations at that time were about 1919 to 1926. I was immediately struck at the "drop-off" of early models. The oldest I saw might have been 1907. The only cars from the 1900 decade or early teens were of 3 categories. First there were occasional ancient Model Ts (there were certainly a ton of newer Model Ts registered) which managed to continue to do their jobs. Also I saw some exotic European models like a Benz, Mercedes, De Dion Bouton, Rolls-Royce, etc which were probably prized for their quality and uniqueness. Without an extensive dealer network international sales were a little more difficult and time consuming for most. A third category of occasional older cars were high quality American and probably custom coachwork types (possibly too expensive to immediately replace) such as Locomobile, Cunningham, Pope, Stevens Duryea....

[Billy Kingsley]

That's really not all that different from today. Look how many cars are visible when you go..anywhere...and you'll see most are newer than 10 years old. The vast majority of people treat them as replaceable appliances, not a treasure to be taken care of and preserved. 

 

Just last year our family 2018 Ford Edge was lost when we were hit, and finding a replacement was not easy. And that was only 5 years old, not even 10. I found exactly 1 looking in all of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut and Pennsylvania, which we bought. 

 

The vast numbers of new cars being made these days compared to the pioneer era ensures that there are some out there, but not as easy to find as you may think. 

 

Many people don't keep a car as long as they can, they want the newest, most "fashionable" thing and replace them without a second thought.

 

With the rapid advances in technology and everything else in the pioneer era I imagine that was even more pronounced in those days. 

[Dr B]

Very interesting discussion. The average life of a car is increasing, it is not static. I just check and the current average age of a car on US roads is 12.2 years.  That is not how long the first owner kept the car. Obviously, cars have several owners and as it ages it moves down the socioeconomic food chain. I would be curious to know what the average life of a car was by decade. It has gotten longer over time, I just don't know if that was at a steady pace or with leeps alone the way. I know it has over the past few decades (if I recall correctly, it was less than 10 years in the 1970s).  Does anyone have the actual data?

 

Robert

[Dr B]

I should have googled before I spoke.  Here is the data for the last 25 years.

 

https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-trucks-operation-united-states

 

Robert

[JV Puleo]

5 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

With the rapid advances in technology and everything else in the pioneer era I imagine that was even more pronounced in those days. 

I think that is spot on. Think of the advances between 1900 and 1910. To a  limited extent, the 1910 car will do just about anything a much newer car will do...you'll get wet and it may not be kind to the car but if the goal is to get you from one place to another at a reasonable speed there are many places in the country where you could do it. I once had a bet with a friend that I could  drive my 1910 REO for an everyday car for a week...we did agree that didn't include rainy days (although I have driven it in the rain) and, I admit, it was the middle of the summer. We also had to exclude nights because I had no working headlights although I've done that also at a later date. I once drove that car from Rhode Island to Long Island and back over 3 days. It was an adventure but, by and large, the car performed as it should.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I know what I'm about to say may not seem like it should have anything to do with vintage cars and dusty driving conditions, but I think that it does. Before I looked up the answer I was fairly confident about the answer. I'm not bragging, well maybe a little bit!

https://www.motor1.com/features/250737/top-10-states-cars-last/3090417/

[Billy Kingsley]

car people doing regular maintenance is expected. It's the cars as an appliance people who are much less likely to do that or even want to keep a car long term. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

On 7/20/2024 at 8:15 PM, tcslr said:

Watching old film and photographs of cars operating during giant dusters made me wonder…. Was there any info on engine life or failure due to the dust. Valve seat damage, pistons, rings, etc. seems failure would have been much quicker. Or on cars that attempted to traverse deserts in round-the-world events. 

Death to a car because of dirt in the the air was implicit from day one that cars became required transportation. It had to be one of the most important factors considered before paved roads became the norm. Look at some of the archival pictures of pre-war wrecking yards. There is very little body damage or rust. Why were these cars here? Most people were not yet prosperous enough, nor frivolous enough, to dispose of cars before their time. It had to be mechanical failure.

 

During the 20's and 30's after market air filtration equipment was one of the first optioned items added to a new or used car. Filters became one of the most important standard items that car manufacturers added during the 30's. Manufacturers did not stop there. Some companies, like Studebaker, made decisions based on dust the conditions present in an area of the country, before it determined which type of air cleaner would be included. Oil bath being preferred where dusty conditions existed.  

[Jeff Deringer]

On 7/21/2024 at 10:59 AM, JACK M said:

I remember when Mt. St. Helens erupted.

Air filters getting plugged up on the emergency vehicles made the news.

In Idaho, my dad was so worried about my sister in Salem that he sent her a half dozen air filters for her car....Ha ha!

[Leif in Calif]

I care for a '25 Chevy that belongs to the city where I live. 1925 was the first year for a cover for the rocker arms, and the push rods didn't get covered until 1928. In the twenties the vast majority of miles that truck put on were dirt (it picked up eggs from local farmers). Oily parts plus dust produces something similar to valve lapping compound. There must have been a lot of maintenance for that vehicle to survive. I had a '59 Triumph some years ago. The recommended maintenance included a valve job at 40 thousand miles. I sold my 2018 Chevy when it hit 200K miles, and it was still in very good shape. We've com a long way! 

[human-potato_hybrid]

On 7/22/2024 at 3:56 PM, Dr B said:

Very interesting discussion. The average life of a car is increasing, it is not static. I just check and the current average age of a car on US roads is 12.2 years.  That is not how long the first owner kept the car. Obviously, cars have several owners and as it ages it moves down the socioeconomic food chain. I would be curious to know what the average life of a car was by decade. It has gotten longer over time, I just don't know if that was at a steady pace or with leeps alone the way. I know it has over the past few decades (if I recall correctly, it was less than 10 years in the 1970s).  Does anyone have the actual data?

 

Robert

In pre-COVID times, a car took 9 years to depreciate 80%. In 1950, it was 5 years.

 

The average lifespan of a car has increased in the same proportion. Roughly 10 years up to 17 years.

[Pfeil]

Do people today know how to service cars with crankcase ventilation? How many people know you must wash out breathers, air cleaners with kerosene, let them dry, then turn them upside down and refill them with motor oil then turn them upside down and let them drain out before re-installing them? you know the oil is supposed to cling to the wire mesh and the dirt will now stick to the wire mesh cleaning the air before it goes into the engine. That's why it needs to be cleaned with every oil change every 3,000 miles (or 6mo. whichever comes first) -1500 miles if it's an air-cooled VW or Porsche.  If you do not do your own servicing just watch whoever does it for you. I'll bet they don't. Some cars like the Pontiac flathead straight six and straight have an intake breather and an exhaust breather, Pontiac V-8 from 1955-1960 have a breather in both valve covers, and one exhaust breather filter the exhaust breather is at the very end of the road draft tube preventing dirt air from entering the engine when the car is parked on a dusty lot or side of the road with the engine turned off. The staggered breathers on Pontiac's valve covers are in a strategic location to receive air from the engine fan. Some builders don't put them back the same way they come off and disturb the air flow through the engine.

 The straight eight and straight six have a scoop on the breather and there is a notch for the breather so it can only go on one way-still some people force them into the wrong location.

image of the exhaust filter to prevent dirty air from going back into the crankcase,

The Pontiac V-8 below shows the two breathers on the valve cover, and the road draft tube behind the oil filter on the rt side with the breather attached to the road draft tube ensuring no dust will enter in the reverse direction.

 

 

[Grimy]

As the owner of a 1950 Pontiac 6 in the early 1960s, I had to install a California-required retrofit consisting of plugging the road draft tube and running a tube into the air cleaner to feed in crankcase gases.  I didn't keep the car much longer, but even then I knew this was a half-azzed non-solution.

[wayne sheldon]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:24 AM, Grimy said:

As the owner of a 1950 Pontiac 6 in the early 1960s, I had to install a California-required retrofit consisting of plugging the road draft tube and running a tube into the air cleaner to feed in crankcase gases.  I didn't keep the car much longer, but even then I knew this was a half-azzed non-solution.

 

My dad way back when had to do the same thing to his 1950s Chevrolets. He made similar comments about it.

[46 woodie]

Back in 1968 when I purchased my first Model A, I pulled the oil pan and there was literally an inch of sludge, not oil sludge, but gritty dirt. There were 60,000 miles on the odometer and my father in law who grew up in the Model A era told me that it was rare for a Model A engine to last 60,000 miles. With all that dirt being sucked into a carb/engine with no air cleaner I can see why.