Anyone Ever Have A Brass Car Literally Fall Apart In Their Trailer ?

[Trulyvintage]

I have had at least (3) brass cars

that the owners claimed were

intact enough

to transport on their rolling

chassis inside my trailer ...

 

This one was picked up on 

Halloween of 2021 from a

noteworthy and reputable

hobbyist near the Mexican

border ...

 

@ 

 

 

 

Jim

[TAKerry]

Im not sure I would have trusted a car that was put together with blue painters tape! By the condition I would not have been surprised at all with it coming apart. I would imagine its well on its way to being restored at this point (3 yrs later).

[mikewest]

Why even ask the question WHAT HAPPENED? IF YOU CANT SEE ITS THE FLOOR SWEEPINGS  from a few parts cars wired together you should switch hobbys. V8

[ABear]

That will buff out 😧

 

One of the reasons I don't haul my vintage car for long distances and my car is fully assembled..

 

That one looks like a restoration was started but cobbled together enough to get it out of the garage.

 

Should have been torn down enough to be crated not rolled..

[Brass is Best]

I have never had anything fall apart or fall off. Brass era cars do not just fall apart if they are assembled properly in the first place.

[Trulyvintage]

The new owner had flown out to

inspect the Reo before buying it.

 

The Reo was in the Seller's driveway

when I arrived - we rolled it down

a long asphalt driveway to a paved

street where I winched it into my

trailer.

 

There were parts carefully packed in boxes, and secured on the chassis that covered the area from the boot at the rear to the front axle.

 

The blue painters tape was installed by the Seller presumably to keep the boot from being damaged during transport.

 

As mentioned - the Seller had a good

reputation and gave the Buyer no

indication anything was not as 

represented.

 

When I arrived with the vehicle,

the Seller discovered the vehicle 

had apparently been disassembled 

and had parts missing and in some

cases other parts had been substituted.

 

Jim

[ABear]

The seller misrepresented the condition in spite of their reputation..

 

You the hauler should have at a minimum noticed the body and chassis were not connected well or at all when loading and strapping down. Didn't see any bolts and nuts laying on the floor, that body HAD to have been flopping around while loading.

 

Speaking of strapping down, the front strap would give me nightmares as a seller or new owner, that my friend is not how to tie down that type of spring suspension, Puts a lot of strain on the ends of the springs that were never intended to be pulled on in that direction, your very lucky the front springs were not damaged also. Should have used two separate straps, one for each side and avoid putting side to side strain on them as they were designed mainly for up and down movement and much less side to side.

 

Sort of fault of both seller and to a degree the hauler.

 

Honestly, myself if I was in you the haulers shoes would have at a minimum made the decision to either not accept it or required it to have been broken down body off and crated.. It was simply hurried stuck back together to make some semblance of a automobile.

 

Assuming owner pulled it back from a restoration shop, they may not have been fully aware, but they should have had some idea that it wasn't what they represented..

 

 

[mikewest]

1 hour ago, Trulyvintage said:

The new owner had flown out to

inspect the Reo before buying it.

 

The Reo was in the Seller's driveway

when I arrived - we rolled it down

a long asphalt driveway to a paved

street where I winched it into my

trailer.

 

There were parts carefully packed in boxes, and secured on the chassis that covered the area from the boot at the rear to the front axle.

 

The blue painters tape was installed by the Seller presumably to keep the boot from being damaged during transport.

 

As mentioned - the Seller had a good

reputation and gave the Buyer no

indication anything was not as 

represented.

 

When I arrived with the vehicle,

the Seller discovered the vehicle 

had apparently been disassembled 

and had parts missing and in some

cases other parts had been substituted.

 

Jim

Did you pick it up in Virginia?

[motoringicons]

A proper hauler would have walked away from this project automobile. A proper hauler should have a check list that should have all of the defects or issues. The contract/check list should be signed from the seller if the hauler decides to take the job. Reliable, Intercity, Passport, etc. would have walked away from this haul. At this point, the person responsible for the damage is the hauler, as the hauler has accepted the job. The hauler has cargo insurance. Doesn't he? Maybe?

 

I always recommend customers one of the larger haulers such as Reliable, Passport, Intercity, etc. If the customer chooses an independent hauler, well, that is his choice.....

 

PS- I have shipped more than a few brass era cars, I have never had one "fall part". 

Edited May 1 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[oldcarfudd]

I bought an AACA National First Prize winner (!) sight-unseen from a well-known restorer.  The car was very pretty, but turned out to be a lousy runner and totally undependable.  I put a couple of hundred miles on it, and then turned it over to my own restorer to have it made mechanically sound as well as cute.  He hauled it off to his shop.  He called me, totally embarrassed, to say that the transverse front leaf spring had shattered in his trailer.  The car had settled with the fenders on the front wheels, so the pretty fenders were now well-dented.  I called the guy I'd bought the car from.  He told me all the leaves in that spring had been broken, so he'd had them all welded. Sheesh!  At least it hadn't collapsed while I was driving it!

 

P.S. That was about 20 years ago.  My restorer did a great job, and I have put many thousands of miles on that car in the intervening years.

[Reynard]

Unfortunately the structural integrity of an antique cannot always be assessed externally. I have been in the "Antiques" and fine arts business for decades. In buying, selling and handling items that may be 500 years or even older, extreme caution is always exercised. A hidden crack, a rotted internal structural member, or a less than competent "restoration" can mean the loss of an irreplaceable item. 

Packing and shipping these items is a good way to develop ulcers and gray (or no) hair. Every precaution must be taken to insure no undue strain is placed on the piece. We try to anticipate the effect of rough handling, vibration, and other objects placed on or near our shipment and most times go overboard on internal braces, extra padding, strong crating and strapping. From foam-in-place packaging to enclosed containers and palletization, there are always methods to safely deliver fragile goods. The solutions are not inexpensive and the selection of the carrier is of paramount importance. We have never declined to ship, but sometimes the cost is prohibitive in the customer's mind. We'd rather not take the possibility of a negative result by cutting corners. 

Accidents can an do happen, but with the proper preparation, they can be minimalized and hopefully eliminated.

[Trulyvintage]

I have safely transported over 200

Early Brass Vehicles valued up to

1.3 million without incident.

 

This Reo had an eight point tie

down and the front sling attached

to the winch line was loose putting

no pressure on the vehicle.

 

The vehicle is shown after all

the boxes of parts were removed

by me along with the extra sheet

metal parts that had been loaded

and secured in place by the Seller.

 

The vehicle had been disassembled 

and reassembled between the time

the Buyer inspected it in person

and when I picked it up.

 

Nothing indicated this was the

case when I loaded the vehicle.

 

The negative comments posted

are just another example of why

folks are reluctant to post on

this website ....

 

 

Jim

[ABear]

15 minutes ago, Trulyvintage said:

I have safely transported over 200

Early Brass Vehicles valued up to

1.3 million without incident.

 

This Reo had an eight point tie

down and the front sling attached

to the winch line was loose putting

no pressure on the vehicle.

 

The vehicle is shown after all

the boxes of parts were removed

by me along with the extra sheet

metal parts that had been loaded

and secured in place by the Seller.

 

The vehicle had been disassembled 

and reassembled between the time

the Buyer inspected it in person

and when I picked it up.

 

Nothing indicated this was the

case when I loaded the vehicle.

 

The negative comments posted

are just another example of why

folks are reluctant to post on

this website ....

 

 

Jim

Jim, things happen, it is a fact of life.

 

However, when I view the picture you posted, the thing that sticks out is there is no screws, bolts or nuts laying on the trailer deck. There HAS to be some fasteners in use to hold the rear springs and axle to the body.

 

When I brightened the pix and viewed under high magnification I see NOTHING that looks like a screw, bolt or nut.

 

That whole rear end had to sliding around as you moved the car into your trailer.. I just don't see how it didn't fall apart while you were moving it.

 

I am including a cropped view of you pix of what I can see..

 

As far as the front sling goes, nope, don't do it that way even while winching it on, fantastic way of bending and collapsing the front springs. That sling acts like a noose, the more you tug, the tighter it gets and nothing to dissipate or arrest the inward pull.

 

Better plan is to attach right were the axle and springs attach, that takes out all the stress that would be induced on the spring tips and puts it at the strongest point right at the axle..

 

Not critiquing your business or experience but as an owner of a car with a lot of fragile parts I am keenly aware of having to ensure I don't attach to a place that isn't strong enough and that point isn't a good place if you want your business to continue to thrive.

[Trulyvintage]

Did you actually watch the video I posted ?

 

At the very beginning, Jim noted that loose bolts had been installed and fallen out onto the trailer floor and he showed a few as an example.

 

there was no indication or doubt in my mind that the vehicle had been assembled properly, and would not literally fall apart 100 miles down the road.

 

I am not replying to any further comments regarding the condition of the vehicle that I picked up and loaded.

 

Jim

[Bhigdog]

I love it.

An unfortunate occurance and all the wannabe experts are vying to see who could sound the most knowledgeable about something they know nothing about.

Lets have another round of harumphing and superiority signaling.......

Harumph, harumph....bob

 

[ABear]

42 minutes ago, Trulyvintage said:

At the very beginning, Jim noted that loose bolts had been installed and fallen out onto the trailer floor and he showed a few as an example.

 

there was no indication or doubt in my mind that the vehicle had been assembled properly, and would not literally fall apart 100 miles down the road.

Properly assembled means the bolts, nuts and screws are properly tightened. Finger tight or one or two threads of engagement are not "Properly assembled" but CAN fall apart with movement and vibration very quickly..

 

Screws, bolts, nuts falling off with 100 miles ARE NOT properly assembled and THAT is the real reason why the results you ended up with.

 

While you could not have 100% seen that coming, I personally, after taking one look at that project would have walked away from hauling it unless it was broken down and crated. Sometimes better to walk away from a deal if things are not what they seem, just the seller saying that things were different than what they expected and all the painters tape holding things together would have given me the willies..

[Bhigdog]

Just now, ABear said:

Properly assembled means the bolts, nuts and screws are properly tightened. Finger tight or one or two threads of engagement are not "Properly assembled" but CAN fall apart with movement and vibration very quickly..

 

Screws, bolts, nuts falling off with 100 miles ARE NOT properly assembled and THAT is the real reason why the results you ended up with.

 

While you could not have 100% seen that coming, I personally, after taking one look at that project would have walked away from hauling it unless it was broken down and crated. Sometimes better to walk away from a deal if things are not what they seem, just the seller saying that things were different than what they expected and all the painters tape holding things together would have given me the willies..

HARUMPH, HARUMPH.......

[old car fan]

Still falls back on the shipper,you opened yourself on this on.you are responsible, once it is in the trailer, no matter what anyone says. Very brave to post it. It's your decision. We have used Jim,without  problems. 

[Trulyvintage]

37 minutes ago, old car fan said:

Still falls back on the shipper,you opened yourself on this on.you are responsible, once it is in the trailer, no matter what anyone says. Very brave to post it. It's your decision. We have used Jim,without  problems. 

I am not responsible if a vehicle 

is represented as a rolling project in a

suitable condition to be transported

and falls apart because it was not 

assembled properly.

 

I transport vehicles.

 

I do not inspect them for proper 

assembly.

 

 I contacted my customer and

gave them the option of either:

 

Stopping transport and placing

the vehicle in storage ...

 

Or ...

 

Having Jim temporarily repair

the rolling chassis so I could

continue the transport without

it falling apart ...

 

My customer chose to pay 

Jim to make temporary repairs

and I completed the transport

without further incident.

 

Not until he took delivery

did he discover that the 

Reo had been disassembled 

and parts were missing/replaced.

 

He was understandably upset.

 

Jim

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi All

 

First of all, yes, I have seen similar damage to brass cars when transported. It can and does happen easily if the dynamics of the car chassis are not understood and the tie downs are inappropriately applied.

 

I will add some comments at the risk of upsetting some. But having experienced damaged brass cars during transport I would like to pass along some notes in the hope that it may save someone else grief in the future.

 

These early brass cars are lightly built and mounted on very “springy” chassis and in nearly all cases have no shock absorbers.

 

I helped a friend trailer back a 1911 Buick roadster several years ago. It was a solid original with the engine out, but everything else bolted together as it left the factory. It was a two day 1000 mile trip. The first day was uneventful. The second day was over a rough highway and a lot of bumps. At the next rest stop and car check we found one of the rear spring mounts broken right off of the frame of the car. The car was strapped down by the axles as recommended by most trailering sites.

 

From what I can see of the some of the ties down straps, I am concerned about how it was tied down. Looping a strap through the front full elliptic springs and down to anchors is not the way to tie it down. The full elliptic springs move when flexing, the ends coming closer together when the body rides up, and farther apart when the body comes down. If there is tension on the strap here when starting out, the strap will alternately tighten and loosen as the frame moves up and down over the bumps. And a single strap pulls the two fronts of the springs together twisting the springs in their mountings. And the front axle should have radius rods mounted from the frame to the axle to keep the axle from moving too much. However, this also results in the axle moving in an arc when the spring flexes, moving forcing the frame to move front to back with bumps.

 

The rear axles is chain drive with radius rods to locate the axle as well. So, when the spring flex, the axle moves in an arc which also moves the frame fore and aft when moving up and down.

 

And it should be noted, that the way the radius rods are mounted, the axles move in opposite directions as the frame moves up and down.  When the frame moves up, the front axle moves back and the rear axle moves forward. This can cause changing tension on the axles which can end up trying to pull them apart and off of the frame.

 

There is also a suggestion of a strap on the back which appears to go under the axle, then over the rear of the body then to the other side and under the under side of the axle then back. This is a poor way to strap a chassis that flexes a lot. Again, like the front axle, when moving up and down the axle moves front and back changing the tension on the straps and placing additional load on the spring mounts on the frame.

 

I see signs of blocking between the front axle and frame and if this is solid and strapped tightly so that there can be no movement between the axle and frame then this doesn’t matter as much. But only if the connection is solid and if the back axle is similarly solidly anchored between the frame and axle.

 

The best way, in my own opinion, to move this type of car is with wheel nets to hold the wheels in one place while allowing the springs and frame to closer to the way that they were designed to move when flexing. Second best is strapping the axles, with four straps, one per the end of each axle and cross pattern.

 

Also, a key issue with these early cars. They have NO SHOCKS and when they bounce, they will keep bouncing. Shocks help control the magnitude of the bounce and quickly slow the rebound to stop the bouncing. Without shocks the chassis and body will keep bouncing. And if you hit a harmonic vibration, the bouncing will continue to get worse until something breaks.

 

I have seen some people make up leather bounce limiting straps and put them on the axles. Mostly to help reduce the bounce when driving the car, but it also helps limit the bounce when in the trailer to prevent the chassis from bouncing up too high on a bump. Several wraps of bungy cord around each end of the axle to the frame to act as temporary shock absorbers is an option. I haven’t yet tried that one out.

 

If you have ridden in a T or other early brass car and think that they bounce hard at 30 mph when you hit a bump, just think of how hard they bounce in the trailer at 60 mph.

 

I have seen this happened with Ford Ts in the trailer. The floorboards and seat cushions have bounced out of place and around inside the car while it’s in the trailer. I now take them out when transporting my T to prevent damage.

 

And a friend nearly lost his T when a rear seat spring bounced out and came down on the accessory turn signal terminal board under the seat. The battery was connected and the seat spring shorted the terminal strip, the fuse didn’t work and set the upholstery on fire. Fortunately, that time it was on an open trailer and the fire was spotted in time to save the car, although it needed to be re-upholstered.

 

Its interesting to see that the masking tape appears to be unbroken. And if it is unbroken, then don’t blame the use of the tape on any of the issues.

 

This one is not the fault of the seller. Its up to the purchaser and transporter to decide if the car is in the condition for transportation and to pack it so that it can handle the road conditions during transport.

 

Trailer safe.

 

Drive safe.

[Trulyvintage]

Before writing a short story ...

 

Try watching the 2 minute video

in my first post and actually reading

my other posts that follow.

 

Your observations do not

apply to what I dealt with.

 

 

Jim

Edited May 2 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[Crusty Trucker]

In my totally humble and non-professional opinion, transporting a seemingly fragile 100 year old plus vehicle at modern highway speeds over the typically marginally maintained roads of today is not unlike throwing great-grandmother's century old hand stitched bed quilt in the heavy duty washing machine at the laundromat and expecting it to come out all in one piece.

Could happen, but in both cases, there are many thoughtful precautions to be taken first.

 

 

 

[Trulyvintage]

Over 200 Early Brass Vehicles

safely transported since 2006

including four of the

remaining ten intact

Stanley Steam Mountain Wagons

in private ownership.

 

After Jim made temporary repairs

I continued my trip from California 

to Maryland with the Reo secured

as it was when I initially picked

it up and loaded it in my trailer

with no further issues.

 

In addition to the method

described in the following 

video - the Reo had four

additional axle straps fastened 

to the rims and crossed in

an " X Pattern " from front

left to rear right - front right

to rear left - rear left to front

right - rear right to front left.

 

That - is what kept the Reo

from completely falling apart.

 

As with the Reo - the front

sling used for loading the

chassis in this video had

all tension released after

the axle straps were secured.

 

The axle straps are snugly

secured with ratcheting 

snap hook nylon straps

but not over tightened

to exert stress.

 

Dropped off last Saturday 

in the Portland, Oregon

area after safe transport

from California ...

 

@ 

 

 

All you " armchair experts " ...

 

Find someone else to target ...

 

 

Jim

 

 

 

Edited May 2 by Trulyvintage (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

3 hours ago, nsbrassnut said:

…having experienced damaged brass cars during transport I would like to pass along some notes in the hope that it may save someone else grief in the future...

 

Thank you Jeff — that was very informative.
 

While I have no trailer—not even a trailer hitch—I’m considering something for my ‘06 Orient, an ancient, full-elliptic sprung, chain drive bouncy little buggy.
 

Your insights and suggestions will help a lot. 
 

 

[7th Son]

1 hour ago, Trulyvintage said:

All you " armchair experts " ...

 

Find someone else to target ...

 

 

Jim

Jim:  You asked the initial question and received nearly 25 responses up to this point. If you feel that you have been mistreated or misunderstood, you have the capability to delete the OP and all the comments attached. It all goes away for ever and you can get back to your life.

 

 

 

[8E45E]

21 hours ago, Brass is Best said:

I have never had anything fall apart or fall off. Brass era cars do not just fall apart if they are assembled properly in the first place.

This one must have been put together by Humpty Dumpty.

 

Craig

[playswithbrass]

Why is this relevant? It happened in 2021.

[old car fan]

Agree,he put himself open for criticism. And we haul cars,[ours,not a transporter] I know the condition of the car before we load. Video  means nothing. Jim is responsible  once it is loaded. 

[brasscarguy]

First of all, when looking for a car hauler, CHECK ALL REFERENCES!!!!! There are good haulers, and not so good carriers, and some really bad haulers. 

 

The late Harold Sharons 1910 Buick was contracted to ship the car from Glastonbury Conn to My home near Seattle Washington for his daughter. 

 

After many delays and just as many excuses, the Buick was dropped off at a guys yard in Sacramento. After many stories and lies, finally another uninsured carrier and back yard hauler took it to near Portland Ore. He dropped the Buick off at a friends house. The police later figured these 2 were going to hide the car and sell it later.

 

The Glastonbury Police had got involved due to a car theft report by Harold's family. They traced it to a garage near Portland. I had friend do some sleuthing he actually saw the car in the garage. The local police then recovered the Buick and it finally got to my shop some 6 months later.

 

Some simple rules to follow  BEFORE hiring a hauler, Get their current insurance information, then call the company and make sure the policy is still in force. Then get current clients names and contact information and contact them for references.  Keep in mind price is not the issue, good care and on time delivery is!!!!!

 

I know the above original hauler will read this and hopefully think twice before scamming anyone else.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy

[Stude Light]

Personally, I would not expect my vehicle carrier to verify the integrity of a car being shipped outside of anything obvious. I guess Jim was supposed to crawl under the car and check torque on all the fasteners to verify it was properly assembled? 

[old car fan]

I think any hauler should know.Do you not have to get under a car to strap it. If there is another way,fill us in,we are getting older.Jim has hauled for us,no problems. 

Edited May 6 by old car fan (see edit history)

[Trulyvintage]

I posted this video on my 

YouTube channel a couple

years ago - same method

as outlined in my other video(s):

 

@ 

 

 

Jim 

[Trulyvintage]

Here is a 1910 Chalmers

Detroit with elliptical springs

I safely transported a few

years ago along with a

1913 Model T in one of 

my larger enclosed trailers 

from California to

The Gilmore without incident.

 

The same method of tie

down was used on both

these vehicles for the trip.

 

@ 

 

 

 

Jim

[46 woodie]

I don't own a trailer, but from what I have read, car's that are being trailered can really take a beating because of the inadequate suspension on the trailer. I do know that Top Fuel dragsters use inflatable bladders under their chassis because of the constant flex, some dragsters have actually split in half. I guess it would make common sense that if you are trailering an early vehicle that was only meant for 30 MPH roads, it probably does not like to be tied down in a trailer going 75 MPH.

[Larry Schramm]

On 5/1/2024 at 9:20 AM, ABear said:

That will buff out 😧

 

One of the reasons I don't haul my vintage car for long distances and my car is fully assembled..

 

That one looks like a restoration was started but cobbled together enough to get it out of the garage.

 

Should have been torn down enough to be crated not rolled..

 

I have trailered our brass cars (1915 & back) tens of thousands of miles and never had a problem other that the straps might become a little loose going over some rough road.  Just retighten. 

Edited May 12 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)