1920 Dort w/ Brown-Lipe Differential: Who can cut me a new spider gear?

[Nate Dort]

The spider gears in the rear end of my 1920 Dort are totally shot. I took them to a local gear specialty shop, but they couldn't cut a 12-tooth gear this size and orientation based on the charts for their 1940s Gleason machines. He said he didn't know of any other gear shops in the state that could do it. Maybe somebody with a 5-axis mill, he said, but he wasn't sure.

 

Anybody know of a shop that can cut straight tooth spider gears like this?

 

Edited April 23 by Nate Dort (see edit history)

[viv w]

What make of axle did Dort use? 

Those gears may have been used in other makes of vehicles? 

 Put some measurements of the gears, maybe someone has some lying around.

[Nate Dort]

Good idea. I'll edit the thread title accordingly, maybe get some more eyes on it.

 

It's a Flint / Walker-Weiss Axle with Brown-Lipe gear assembly.

 

The spider gears are stamped "4064"

 

Dimensions:

Diameter: 2.64"

Inner Diameter: 0.75"

Thickness: 0.93"

Tooth width at thickest point: 0.31"

 

 

[Rod P]

According to Master interchangeable parts service Vol 1, 1925-1930, if I am reading it right, section DF has other models that used same spider gear.

 

Not that this usually helps much, as most are rare as hens teeth. 

 

[Nate Dort]

There was a lot of cross-pollination between Dort and Gardner, for some reason. Same Lycoming K engines, same ignition systems, and apparently the same rear end.

 

I'm going to try a few other shops. If that doesn't pan out, I may be forced to model it up in CAD and having it 3D printed in steel with the SLM method. Apparently sintered differential gears are a thing, so I suppose this could work, assuming it's hardened properly.

[DGPoff]

Try 

https://jovalmachine.com/about-us/

 

Friend of the HCCA Jerry Chase and family.

 

i used to own a 1915 Dort. In the Nethercutt Museum now.

[Nate Dort]

11 hours ago, DGPoff said:

Try 

https://jovalmachine.com/about-us/

 

Friend of the HCCA Jerry Chase and family.

 

i used to own a 1915 Dort. In the Nethercutt Museum now.

JoVal said they couldn't cut bevel gears, and recommended a place in TN. I sent them and a couple other places an inquiry, we'll see if any are willing to take on a small job like this.

[Larry Schramm]

10 hours ago, Nate Dort said:

JoVal said they couldn't cut bevel gears, and recommended a place in TN. I sent them and a couple other places an inquiry, we'll see if any are willing to take on a small job like this.

 

Go to Acme Gear near Mt. Clements, Mi.  They have made gears for me.

 

https://acmegearco.com

[Nate Dort]

11 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Go to Acme Gear near Mt. Clements, Mi.  They have made gears for me.

 

https://acmegearco.com

Acme said that they don't have the equipment to make bevel gears. That's what I'm finding from a lot of these places.

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Nate

 

Try a search on the forum for a thread on another similar rear end repair issue. I think it was a late '20's Kissel. Perhaps someone here can elaborate.

 

That restorer had similarly bad spider gears and after some searching found a modern spider gear that could be adapted into his rear axle to solve the problem.

[nsbrassnut]

Hopefully this link works.

 

 

[Nate Dort]

Yep, that thread came up in my search. The trouble is that I'm not seeing any modern spider gears with 12 teeth. Nearly everything nowadays is 7-10 teeth. Early 30s Fords used 12-tooth spider gears, but the size is different.

[Mark Gregush]

4 hours ago, Nate Dort said:

Yep, that thread came up in my search. The trouble is that I'm not seeing any modern spider gears with 12 teeth. Nearly everything nowadays is 7-10 teeth. Early 30s Fords used 12-tooth spider gears, but the size is different.

The Ford Model T and A used the same spider gears. While the gear on the axle was part of the same for the Model A, the T used a press on gear. If your spider gears look that bad got to wonder how the axle gears look? With bushings if needed, could you use the T/A spider gears and Axle gears from a Model T? That way the tooth count would match up between the two. 

Edited April 25 by Mark Gregush (see edit history)

[Nate Dort]

The Dort axle shafts have square ends, and the gears are held on with nuts and cotter pins. The roller bearings ride on the gear, rather than on the axle shaft like the Model T. I don't think the T press-on gears are going to work with those shafts without some major modifications.

 

My axle gears actually look pretty good, all things considered. A couple minor corner chips on 2 or 3 teeth.

 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Nate

 

You are probably correct about T bits not working. But, the T axle gear actually has a shoulder on it that the differential case rides on. The shoulder is a sort of bearing surface for the differential casing and is on the "back side" of the gear. Maybe, a long stretch maybe, T gears might be adaptable, but only with new axle shafts and perhaps some regrinding of the shoulder on the T gear.

 

I'll try to get some pictures next time I'm near my T bits pile.

 

I hate square splines, especially the straight ones. Once they wear just a little, the part will never be tight again but will wobble a bit on the square spline, no matter how tight the retaining nut.

 

But in this case it sure would be easier to find some differential gears that would fit with only minor adaptation.

[Nate Dort]

7 minutes ago, nsbrassnut said:

But, the T axle gear actually has a shoulder on it that the differential case rides on. The shoulder is a sort of bearing surface for the differential casing and is on the "back side" of the gear.

OK, that make sense, I only did a cursory search of the T axle assembly. I just looked at a few more photos and I see what you're saying. The roller bearings on the Dort ride on the outside of the carrier:

 

 

Seems like it would be less machining overall if I could just get these two gears replaced, rather than trying to adapt something else, even if it is off-the-shelf.

[Larry Schramm]

Does the Dort have a Weston-Mott axle?

[edinmass]

3 D printing a gear……nope. 

[Larry Schramm]

3 minutes ago, edinmass said:

3 D printing a gear……nope. 

 

No to printing a gear or no on a Weston-Mott axle or both?  I agree on printing a gear.

Edited April 26 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

Keep searching for a "good" machine shop, they are out there.

[Nate Dort]

10 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

Does the Dort have a Weston-Mott axle?

From what I can tell, it's a Flint Motor Axle Company / Walker Weiss axle. It's hard to tell when they changed their name.

Edited April 26 by Nate Dort (see edit history)

[DFeeney]

How nice it is when the forum members "Step Up" to help fellow forum members solve their  complex problems .

[edinmass]

21 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

No to printing a gear or no on a Weston-Mott axle or both?  I agree on printing a gear.

No to the gear………

[Mark Gregush]

If there are no cracks, how about welding them then file to shape. How much do you plan on driving the car? The only time they turn is going around corners. 

[Rod P]

Regarding 3D metal printing, probably too expensive compared to if you can still get something made, but if not?

 

This company in Australia is more about promoting and selling the technology, rather than making stuff for individuals, but believe they can connect you with their equipment users for retail near you. Two websites if anyone interested.

 

But at the moment, limited to making 

 

A wider range of metal powders can be used in automated CSAM than in traditional processes, enabling you to produce a more diverse range of metal parts and tools.

Currently, parts can be manufactured with aluminium, copper, stainless steel, aluminium bronze, and other alloys.

 

https://www.spee3d.com/technology/#how-it-works

 

https://www.spee3d.com/australian-army-push-metal-3d-printing-to-extremes-in-latest-field-trial/

 

 

 

 

Edited April 27 by Rod P
extra info (see edit history)

[PAV8427]

Not sure if these guys do any one off stuff, but might be worth a try. 
Columbia Gear in Avon, Mn. is a large company that does as the name applies. 
International Precision Machine is in Waite Park, Mn and is much smaller, and does gears and related powertrain parts. 

[nsbrassnut]

Finally remembered to check the parts bins to see what  T gears look like.

 

Almost, but not quite. Right number of teeth and bore size (0.750), but not as large a diameter. And only  0.750 thick.

 

Hmm, forgot to measure the gear tooth.

 

If you have access to a T gear it may be worth a second look. Less than ideal, but if nothing else pans out, perhaps an option with a modified mounting system. But a smaller gear might move the axles inward which wouldn't help.

 

Hmm, no easy answers yet.

 

 

[Nate Dort]

I appreciate all of the suggestions and assistance so far.

 

I might have a line on a set of original gears. Waiting to hear back, may be a week or so. This would obviously be the best option assuming they're in usable shape.

 

Haven't heard a peep from any of the 4 machine shops I contacted that specifically mention bevel gears. Might need to make some phone calls, because it seems like nobody returns emails anymore.

 

I might also look into welding and then re-machining the original gears, as was suggested. This thought crossed my mind, but I had thought that it would be easier/better to source new ones.

Edited April 29 by Nate Dort (see edit history)

[TTR]

Admittedly I’m not up on all the capabilities by modern technologies like 3D printing, but would some computer aided/programmed laser cutting be an option for something like this ?

[JFranklin]

Contact NASA, they could do the job I bet!

[Fordy]

The guy I use to scan parts to a 3D file can do it in a format for printing or for CNC machining. 

I have checked a couple of R series Hupp gears that drive the axles and they are very similar to the ones with the square hole - no spider gear laying around to check though.

[nsbrassnut]

Here is another picture of a T spider gear. I know its not the one that you are interested in. But for more information.

 

Note, with the spider gears the teeth are cut on a cone so the width of the gear increases from the small end to the large end. This is a picture of what I measure for the root of the tooth on the small end of the gear. With the centre hole the same size, there is a chance that the gears are made on the same angle and tooth pitch. But it would take  more measurements and a re-read of a gear design section to work out details of the gear tooth profile and pitch for yours.

 

Oh, and don't forget, the Canadian Gray Dort likely used the same axles and gears. But they are note overly common either unfortunately.

 

Hopefully you can find a set of originals that are usable for the Dort.

 

 

[mechanician]

What is needed here is less technology, not more.  Cutting a bevel gear is victorian technology, but it does require specialized machinery. 

 

Have you tried Rempco?

[Gerczak]

Kubota makes a 12 tooth spider.  A-31353-43343.  I don't know it's dimensions but it is used in their front wheel drive.

 

https://www.jensales.com/products/31353-43343-kubota-gear-front-axle-differential-pinion-aip.html

 

 

 

[Nate Dort]

I found a set of T spider gears for cheap, so I figured it was worth a shot to see if/how they engage with my side gears. 

 

That Kubota gear looks like the gap between the teeth is too narrow, but for $40 or so, it may be worth getting one and seeing for sure if my other options don't pan out.

 

I sent a message to Rempco. Hopefully they don't ghost me like the other shops have.

[Nate Dort]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:14 PM, Nate Dort said:

I found a set of T spider gears for cheap, so I figured it was worth a shot to see if/how they engage with my side gears. 

 

For closure/documentation/posterity purposes: They don't.

 

The T gears feel like toys compared to the Dort's, and the difference is striking when you get them next to each other. There's no way they would engage properly with the Dort side gears. The teeth are too narrow and too close together, even if you moved the side gears inboard to get them to mesh.

 

[Terry Harper]

Nate,

have you tried Boston Gear? They do offer 12 tooth bevel gears. If they can match the diameter, pitch etc. they might have a blank hub that allows machining to size. 
 

they also offer custom gears as well and have been in business since 1877.

Edited May 1 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[sleeve-valve]

Hi:
I have 3 NOS pinion gears, 12 tooth, that fit my 1948 GMC 1.5 ton Eaton differential. They measure (approx):
Diameter: 2.54
Inner Dia: .9315
Thickness: 1.02
Tooth Width at widest: .363
Would these be something you could work with?
 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Nate

 

Well that comparison shows it well. There a LOT more difference than I thought based on just the pictures. I didn't appreciate the size of the Dort gears vs T gears from the previous notes.

 

Back to the drawing board unfortunately.

[Nate Dort]

2 hours ago, sleeve-valve said:

Hi:
I have 3 NOS pinion gears, 12 tooth, that fit my 1948 GMC 1.5 ton Eaton differential. They measure (approx):
Diameter: 2.54
Inner Dia: .9315
Thickness: 1.02
Tooth Width at widest: .363
Would these be something you could work with?
 

I really appreciate the offer, but I think the tooth thickness is going to be the killer here, just from looking at it. I'm 99% sure my side gear teeth won't fit that narrower gap cleanly.