Another coolant controversy comes this way

[ramair]

Hi all,  I read the thread on adding cutting oil with great interest and I did not want to hijack it as my question is not about the merits between cutting oil and antifreeze, my question is between the different modern antifreeze that is available has anyone seen a difference in certain properties like foaming our suppression of corrosion with dissimilar metals?  I am putting the finishing touches on a 1939 Packard twelve that I bought last year.  The car came to me with “green” coolant, the car did not overheat on several mountain climb test drives, however the vehicle had a lot of deferred maintenance that needed attention, one of which was the coolant overflow tank was missing.  Amazing to realize that the Packard twelves were early adopters of what many of us would consider a modern accessory.  In order for it to work it requires a pressure cap which Packard modestly kept at 4 pounds, the cooling system holds 10 gallons and the water pump runs at 40 gallons per minute ( yes Ed I know the Pierce runs at near 50 GPM). I put a reproduction tank back on and started thinking about what was the greatest contribution to the cooling system .  The 4# cap didn’t raise the boiling point much, but maybe keeping the top of the radiator full of coolant does not allow air in the cooling system, which must help preserve the either expensive or unobtainium

timing cover and aluminum heads ( mine have been replaced in the past with cast iron).  
  So here is what has happened to me at my day job, I have a lot of farm and construction equipment and recently I have had 2 diesel engines go down needing major overhauls due to internal corrosion.  All my rigs get coolant changed out every three years and I have always used the “green” stuff.  Our water that I blend with is neutral PH and is fairly soft.  One engine was a Cummins and the other was a John Deere, both dealerships told me to use their proprietary pre mixed coolant which ironically is the same color of yellow. The John Deere dealer told me that every time one of their tractors come in with all of its coolant in the oil pan, the remaining coolant is the old standard “green”. He also added that there are all kinds of dissimilar metals in these engines that just want to corrode.I just wanted to know if others have tried anything else and if there is any positives or negatives 

[Bloo]

Everybody has an opinion. For modern diesels, the factory requirements vary widely. That is one of many reasons there are about 30-ish different flavors of antifreeze these days. No phosphates, no silicates, silicates but no phosphates, phosphates but no silicates, Oat, Hoat, IAT, Renewable additive package, no renewable additive package, it goes on and on, and the number of different jugs in an auto parts store these days is staggering. 

 

You can't go by color. There is no standard. Someday there will be, but for now whatever satisfies your warranty requirements might be red in one brand , another purple, and yet another gold. One particular formula for Japanese imports is available dyed 3 different colors, take your pick to match what is already in the radiator.

 

There never has been a standard either. In the 80s I started using a "modern" formula similar to what we now call "DexCool", but it was green. It was not the "old green" formula everyone seems to be in love with, but it was in fact green. If you bought antifreeze at Shell at that time it was blue, but it was the same formula everyone seems to know as "green". Another gas station (Conoco maybe?) had purple. I have been using DexCool in almost everything since the mid 90s, It was pink in the beginning and is orange now. Everyone tells me I am destroying all my radiators, but so far no problems. I'll keep an eye on it. I think I might die of old age first. I do change antifreeze regularly. I do not believe "extra long life" claims for any of them.

 

I use Valvoline-Zerex G-05 in the 36 Pontiac because it foams less and the Pontiac has an open cooling system. Thread here: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/375509-bloos-not-quite-scientific-antifreeze-foaming-test/   Since you have a pressurized system, I think you can use whatever you want.

 

Edited April 17 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Grimy]

The Ford/Navistar 7.3 TD I bought new 26 yrs ago specifies a Ford additive that (I think) is *currently* called VC-8 (differing names of 25 yrs), primarily for anti-cavitation and used *with* antifreeze.  I stay on top of that.

 

@ramair what do Cummins and Deere say about required additives?

[ramair]

54 minutes ago, Grimy said:

The Ford/Navistar 7.3 TD I bought new 26 yrs ago specifies a Ford additive that (I think) is *currently* called VC-8 (differing names of 25 yrs), primarily for anti-cavitation and used *with* antifreeze.  I stay on top of that.

 

@ramair what do Cummins and Deere say about required additives?

I am unsure of Cummins small displacement engines as I only have one, but the large engines have a spin on filter that has a slow release additive.  I have dozens of John Deere between 200ci up to 466 ci they recommend just using their premix💰💰coolant and depending on usage somewhere between 3 to 5 years before change. These are wet sleeve engines and the area around the liners with the automotive type coolant would pit so badly that water would eventually enter the crankcase, another area that was common to eat through is The backup plate for the water pump, of course this did not cause a total melt down like the first. Engine overhauls in wet sleeve engine up until recently were affordable. We use to do in frame overhauls on our Caterpillar D6d with the 3306 engines in one day, start at 6:00 am and be back in the field the next morning for less than $10,000.  They would bring an exchange head, gasket set, liners, pistons with reconditioned rods and new bearings and a rebuilt turbo, ah the good old days. Last engine I did that needed everything including crankshaft damage was approaching a full blown Packard twelve engine job💸💸💸💸

[ramair]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

Everybody has an opinion. For modern diesels, the factory requirements vary widely. That is one of many reasons there are about 30-ish different flavors of antifreeze these days. No phosphates, no silicates, silicates but no phosphates, phosphates but no silicates, Oat, Hoat, IAT, Renewable additive package, no renewable additive package, it goes on and on, and the number of different jugs in an auto parts store these days is staggering. 

 

You can't go by color. There is no standard. Someday there will be, but for now whatever satisfies your warranty requirements might be red in one brand , another purple, and yet another gold. One particular formula for Japanese imports is available dyed 3 different colors, take your pick to match what is already in the radiator.

 

There never has been a standard either. In the 80s I started using a "modern" formula similar to what we now call "DexCool", but it was green. It was not the "old green" formula everyone seems to be in love with, but it was in fact green. If you bought antifreeze at Shell at that time it was blue, but it was the same formula everyone seems to know as "green". Another gas station (Conoco maybe?) had purple. I have been using DexCool in almost everything since the mid 90s, It was pink in the beginning and is orange now. Everyone tells me I am destroying all my radiators, but so far no problems. I'll keep an eye on it. I think I might die of old age first. I do change antifreeze regularly. I do not believe "extra long life" claims for any of them.

 

I use Valvoline-Zerex G-05 in the 36 Pontiac because it foams less and the Pontiac has an open cooling system. Thread here: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/375509-bloos-not-quite-scientific-antifreeze-foaming-test/   Since you have a pressurized system, I think you can use whatever you want.

 

This is great info on the Valvoline-Zerex G-05 as I have a 1915 and a 1928 Buick that both like to foam, I have made sure my water pump seals are good and have even slowed the flow with a restrictor that I made out of a washer and installed in upper hose.  I keep my antifreeze solution at about 20% and it’s livable.  I will try valve line and see what happens, thank you

[Tph479]

2 hours ago, ramair said:

Hi all,  I read the thread on adding cutting oil with great interest and I did not want to hijack it as my question is not about the merits between cutting oil and antifreeze, my question is between the different modern antifreeze that is available has anyone seen a difference in certain properties like foaming our suppression of corrosion with dissimilar metals?  I am putting the finishing touches on a 1939 Packard twelve that I bought last year.  The car came to me with “green” coolant, the car did not overheat on several mountain climb test drives, however the vehicle had a lot of deferred maintenance that needed attention, one of which was the coolant overflow tank was missing.  Amazing to realize that the Packard twelves were early adopters of what many of us would consider a modern accessory.  In order for it to work it requires a pressure cap which Packard modestly kept at 4 pounds, the cooling system holds 10 gallons and the water pump runs at 40 gallons per minute ( yes Ed I know the Pierce runs at near 50 GPM). I put a reproduction tank back on and started thinking about what was the greatest contribution to the cooling system .  The 4# cap didn’t raise the boiling point much, but maybe keeping the top of the radiator full of coolant does not allow air in the cooling system, which must help preserve the either expensive or unobtainium

timing cover and aluminum heads ( mine have been replaced in the past with cast iron).  
  So here is what has happened to me at my day job, I have a lot of farm and construction equipment and recently I have had 2 diesel engines go down needing major overhauls due to internal corrosion.  All my rigs get coolant changed out every three years and I have always used the “green” stuff.  Our water that I blend with is neutral PH and is fairly soft.  One engine was a Cummins and the other was a John Deere, both dealerships told me to use their proprietary pre mixed coolant which ironically is the same color of yellow. The John Deere dealer told me that every time one of their tractors come in with all of its coolant in the oil pan, the remaining coolant is the old standard “green”. He also added that there are all kinds of dissimilar metals in these engines that just want to corrode.I just wanted to know if others have tried anything else and if there is any positives or negatives 

My friend makes the timing cover for the Packard twelves, he has both the 1932-1934 and 1935-1939 styles in stock. If you have an original cover, it’s not a case of if you need one, but when you need one.  The aluminum corrodes behind the water pump and won’t take a weld repair.

 

This past weekend I had to flush a mg td cooling system of what looked like green clumpy gel. It’s like the jolly green giant went to town on the radiator. 4 years ago when I got the car and resurrected it from a 35 year slumber I both evaporusted and ran vinegar through the system and flushed it out repeatedly, so I know the system was clean before I put in a 50/50 mix of new coolant. l I don’t know if I got a bad batch of green antifreeze but I was scratching my head on what I had to flush out. Thoughts?

[ramair]

1 minute ago, Tph479 said:

My friend makes the timing cover for the Packard twelves, he has both the 1932-1934 and 1935-1939 styles in stock. If you have an original cover, it’s not a case of if you need one, but when you need one.  The aluminum corrodes behind the water pump and won’t take a weld repair.

 

This past weekend I had to flush a mg td cooling system of what looked like green clumpy gel. It’s like the jolly green giant went to town on the radiator. 4 years ago when I got the car and resurrected it from a 35 year slumber I both evaporusted and ran vinegar through the system and flushed it out repeatedly, so I know the system was clean before I put in a 50/50 mix of new coolant. l I don’t know if I got a bad batch of green antifreeze but I was scratching my head on what I had to flush out. Thoughts?

I have had some not so fortunate experiences with the Packard twelves in the past.  So when I bought this one I reached out and talked to one of the regular contributors on this forum that restores prewar including twelves. I asked about availability as I heard that the gentleman in Washington that made them for years past away.  I was told they are still being made by a capable machinist. After I bought the car the previous owner said that my new car had the new timing cover in it, so my job as the new caretaker is to keep that timing cover in good shape.  For those that are not familiar with what we are taking about it is not just a simple casting it is a very complex piece that takes days to machine and very difficult and labor intensive to change with engine in car, probably $12,000 to buy and do the job , but not to worry because if it fails and you do not catch it before you start the engine you will have to completely overhaul the engine, this could be a $70,000 mistake, like they say you choose.

  About the Green globs, I would flush again and try a different brand of coolant, it sounds like contamination either from the Evaporust or a bad batch of coolant, either way the next step would be the same

[JFranklin]

2 hours ago, Tph479 said:

My friend makes the timing cover for the Packard twelves, he has both the 1932-1934 and 1935-1939 styles in stock. If you have an original cover, it’s not a case of if you need one, but when you need one.  The aluminum corrodes behind the water pump and won’t take a weld repair.

 

Would a sacrificial anode slow this down?

Edited April 17 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[ramair]

7 hours ago, JFranklin said:

Would a sacrificial anode slow this down?

I like the way you think! Hopefully someone here will share some experience with its use in an antique car coolant system. Something I am curious about, when the twelve was originally built the heads and timing cover was made with 1930 technology aluminum, which most likely had impurities, add in the likelihood that from the time it was near new the proper coolant maintenance was not done and even if it was, it is doubtful that coolant chemistry took in to consideration electrolysis. So fast forward to the last 30 years or so, what has changed, I will guess that a vast percentage of the drivable twelves now only have a new aluminum timing cover as a lot of owners have switched out the heads to cast iron. Could it help to have less aluminum content in the cooling system as far as electrolysis? 
 Perhaps I am worrying for no reason, if it took the engine approx 30 years to fail with several things going against it and I remove some of those, in theory it should last forever, right🤔

below is a picture I have of one of my old covers, unfortunately the corrosion is not visible 

Edited April 17 by ramair (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I like this topic Michael.   I was always worried about aluminum/iron (which I learned the hard way) until my Stearns Knight introduced me to the foaming issue.  At least that's what I think it is.  The car runs significantly cooler with the water/cutting oil.

 

 

[edinmass]

Interesting subject. In my home up north, I run "old green" and down here in Florida I run cutting oil. That said, I replaced an Auburn head with a new one in 2015, in 2017 the new head rotted out and needed to be replaced.........since there were multiple people making them, I went to a different supplier, and the head has ben fine since with old green. I put a spare head on the shelf. As far as the Packard 12 covers.....if you have a car, buy one for the shelf. Don't assume it will always be available. I have two in stock for our cars. Parts that were easily available are now running out and not being made again.........smart move is to inventory what you need for the next 30 years. 

[Grimy]

For engine cooling systems running with dissimilar metals, add a sacrificial anode.  My boat friends tell me magnesium anode for fresh-water boating, zinc for salt-water, so I use magnesium in the cooling system of my 1918 Pierce 48.  Talk about dissimilar metals:  iron cylinder blocks, copper radiator, bronze water pump, copper distribution tubes to cylinder jugs, cast aluminum water manifold carrying coolant output from cylinders to radiator.  Without an anode, the cast aluminum becomes the sacrificial metal in this battery of a cooling system.  To be fair, my car had an anode added over the years, presumably when a new radiator was built in 1994.  It's a cylinder about 2.5 inches long and 3/4 inch diameter, drilled longitudinally with stainless wire through it, the wire formed into a hook like that of an old Christmas tree ornament, with the hook inserted into the overflow pipe.  The wire is long enough that the anode can rest on top of the radiator core.

 

Packard Twelve friends, do you use anodes to protect your cast aluminum?

Edited April 17 by Grimy
added a word for clarity (see edit history)

[Tph479]

52 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Interesting subject. In my home up north, I run "old green" and down here in Florida I run cutting oil. That said, I replaced an Auburn head with a new one in 2015, in 2017 the new head rotted out and needed to be replaced.........since there were multiple people making them, I went to a different supplier, and the head has ben fine since with old green. I put a spare head on the shelf. As far as the Packard 12 covers.....if you have a car, buy one for the shelf. Don't assume it will always be available. I have two in stock for our cars. Parts that were easily available are now running out and not being made again.........smart move is to inventory what you need for the next 30 years. 

Whatever composition the original aluminum is made out of is not the same as the modern stuff. With the Packard 12 timing chain covers, numerous local guys who claim that they can weld and fix anything had no luck welding ones up. Kept on burning through and looking like popcorn. One theory was that the original aluminum had a lot of sand in it, another was that the old coolant contaminated the aluminum.

 

The new covers can be welded up so hopefully in another 80 years they can be repaired if needed. There are still a few of the new ones on the shelf. Cheap insurance to have a spare one since it seems to be the weak link on a twelve.

 

I am still stumped on why I had to flush green gel/ clumpy coolant out of a system. I didn't find much info on the ole googler. 

 

[Larry Schramm]

On 4/16/2024 at 11:28 PM, Tph479 said:

The aluminum corrodes behind the water pump and won’t take a weld repair.

 

That is the reason that a newer coolant should be used. 

 

Modern coolants are designed to protect all of the different metals in a modern engine from corroding or acting like a battery and dissolving. 

 

That is what I use in all of my old cars.  If your are foaming, there is mechanical issue with the engine.  IMO

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

25 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

That is the reason that a newer coolant should be used. 

 

Modern coolants are designed to protect all of the different metals in a modern engine from corroding or acting like a battery and dissolving. 

 

That is what I use in all of my old cars.  If your are foaming, there is mechanical issue with the engine.  IMO

 

 Larry, are you saying MODERN antifreeze can be used in older cars?

 

  Ben

[Grimy]

Do we have a Rolls-Royce owner or mechanic to weigh in on the suitability of "modern" antifreezes, especially for our cars with aluminum components?  I saw (but don't have) a RROC article from about 10 years ago which strongly urged "No OATs"--OAT meaning Organic Acid Technology.  My recollection is that RROC found OAT antifreeze to be worse than unsuitable for pre-war cars.  I don't know the science, but do in fact remember the "No OATs" mnemonic.

[alsancle]

7 hours ago, Grimy said:

Do we have a Rolls-Royce owner or mechanic to weigh in on the suitability of "modern" antifreezes, especially for our cars with aluminum components?  I saw (but don't have) a RROC article from about 10 years ago which strongly urged "No OATs"--OAT meaning Organic Acid Technology.  My recollection is that RROC found OAT antifreeze to be worse than unsuitable for pre-war cars.  I don't know the science, but do in fact remember the "No OATs" mnemonic.

George,  for the PII the club tech recommends distilled water mixed with Peak High Sierra Propylene glycol with Pencool 3000 With Stabil-Aid mixed in.

[Larry Schramm]

10 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Larry, are you saying MODERN antifreeze can be used in older cars?

 

  Ben

 

Everything except OAT, the purple stuff.

[46 woodie]

I use a sacrificial anode attached to my radiator cap. At one time, for some reason. the thermostat housing on my car needed replacement every couple of years. It would literally be eaten away from the inside out. I even tried extra grounds from the engine to the frame and body. The anode seems to have worked and haven't had a problem with the thermostat housing in a few years.  

[ramair]

4 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

I use a sacrificial anode attached to my radiator cap. At one time, for some reason. the thermostat housing on my car needed replacement every couple of years. It would literally be eaten away from the inside out. I even tried extra grounds from the engine to the frame and body. The anode seems to have worked and haven't had a problem with the thermostat housing in a few years.  

I would be most interested in what material people have used for anode rod? On the internet there seems to be conflicting recommendations on materials, go figure!

[Grimy]

28 minutes ago, ramair said:

I would be most interested in what material people have used for anode rod? On the internet there seems to be conflicting recommendations on materials, go figure!

A trusted friend who runs a boat repair shop servicing boats operating in both fresh- and salt-water environments says magnesium anodes for fresh water (us) and zinc for salt water (that would be @edinmass 🙂 )

Edited April 21 by Grimy
added two words for clarity (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Uncle George, I was going to respond with a snarky answer, but then I realized you might take me out of the will.

 

Sincerely, your favorite nephew!

 

 

Edited April 21 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

Uncle George, I was going to respond with a snarky answer, but then I realized you might take me out of the will.

 

Sincerely, your favorite nephew!

 

 

It's gratifying to have that power in my old age!  🙂 

[hook]

Just go buy a Franklin or if you need something newer, a Corvair.

[jp1gt]

I can usually digest all the info and figure it out. I do understand chemical reactions but this is a tough one. I have never had a car with an erosion problem but I am into preventive maintenance. Is is safe to say that a magnesium anode might help but will not hurt a cooling system? did a little research, zinc or mag?

Edited April 22 by jp1gt (see edit history)

[EmTee]

https://www.engineeringclicks.com/galvanic-series/

 

Precautions while using the Galvanic Series:

 

This series does not specify the actual rate of corrosion and hence, should be used only as a qualitative guide while selecting the metals.

A basic knowledge of the environment in which the metals are used, is necessary. Factors such as temperature and humidity vary in different areas. Additionally, a particular metal could have different energy potentials while exposed to air, soil, freshwater or seawater, which in turn affects the rate of galvanic corrosion.

[28 Chrysler]

This was posted a few years back.