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Chrysler 230 Flathead Rebuild and Oil


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There was a small harbor (work) boat that had the marine version of this engine in it. 

The rear seal leaked bad, the compression was somewhere around 45 psi but it always ran smooth and quiet.

Run yours until it knocks or you get a letter from the EPA or the neighbors comment on the smoke trail. 

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39 minutes ago, dalef62 said:

Is that orange fuel hose just a covering over top of a steel line?  The fittings look a little strange.

It is called a 666 Teflon Hose with Clamped Firesleeve.  It is a braided steel line wrapped in that orange Teflon.  It is an aviation fuel line.  The tug spent a few decades working for a local aviation dealer/supplier/mechanic.  I am assuming one of the aviation mechanics replaced the original fuel line for that at some point in its history because it was probably what was handy at the time.

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35 minutes ago, 28 Chrysler said:

There was a small harbor (work) boat that had the marine version of this engine in it. 

The rear seal leaked bad, the compression was somewhere around 45 psi but it always ran smooth and quiet.

Run yours until it knocks or you get a letter from the EPA or the neighbors comment on the smoke trail. 

I think I will.  I have no reasons to believe anything serious is wrong with it.  I might compression test it just for fun but no knocks or anything obviously wrong.  I would like to find someone that knows what they are doing in the area and see if they think the timing and carb is adjusted correctly.  I am not convinced it is running exactly like it should.

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17 hours ago, kramaton said:

If the engine runs without any audible knocking sounds and it doesn't smoke out the exhaust I would just run it and enjoy it.  When you see it smoking real bad or start hearing knocking noise then it time for an overhaul. 

I think I will take that advice.  It doesn't smoke at all.  My only concern was a lot of blow by out of the breather tube but I don't know that is something to be concerned with.  It doesn't seem to be hurting anyone.  :)

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Inside, from what you have told us I suspect that is a used engine that was put in the tug at some point to replace the original. It seems to be well worn with low compression, oil pressure on the low side, and considerable blowby. But starts and runs without knocks or bangs. In other words a typical Dodge flathead . For your purposes will probably keep going for another 40 years.

Think I would revise my oil recommendation from 10W30 to 15W40 but no heavier.

 

It would not be hard to rebuild but for your use I would not bother.

 

Clean and gap the spark plugs, file and set the points, check timing. Adjust carb for a smooth idle. If it seems sluggish and down on power live with it.

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8 hours ago, InsideTrader said:

 There is a black rubber tube going from the carb to the distributor.  I don’t know what that’s about.  It has some sort of valve looking thing between the exhaust and intake manifold under the carb.  There is a wobble in the crank pulley that powers the fan belt.  I cannot imagine the crank is bent because I wouldn’t think it would run if so but maybe I’m wrong.

Rubber tube is for the vacuum advance. Valve is the heat riser valve, directs hot exhaust toward the carb when cold for quick warm up. Wobble is probably a bent pulley but could be loose bolts, might pay to check with a wrench. Looks like someone adapted a Ford Motorcraft alternator in place of the original generator.

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3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Inside, from what you have told us I suspect that is a used engine that was put in the tug at some point to replace the original. It seems to be well worn with low compression, oil pressure on the low side, and considerable blowby. But starts and runs without knocks or bangs. In other words a typical Dodge flathead . For your purposes will probably keep going for another 40 years.

Think I would revise my oil recommendation from 10W30 to 15W40 but no heavier.

 

It would not be hard to rebuild but for your use I would not bother.

 

Clean and gap the spark plugs, file and set the points, check timing. Adjust carb for a smooth idle. If it seems sluggish and down on power live with it.

I have tomorrow afternoon planned for all of that.  I didn’t have time to drive it around and get it completely warmed up but this is my oil pressure as soon as it stops climbing after a cold start in 70 degree weather.  I don’t know if that changes your oil recommendation or not.

57D3E641-ED87-4C43-B636-10434B91F9C4.jpeg

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On 3/13/2024 at 6:44 PM, InsideTrader said:

 I have three 4 year old daughters

Enjoy those triplets and take a lot of cell phone videos.  I live 4 miles from my 15y/o triplet grandsons and being part of their life for the past 15 years has been the highlight of my existence.  

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46 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

30PSI is plenty to be going on with. Waiting to see the result of a compression test. You should be ok without doing any major work.

I will let you know on that.  Thank you for all your help.

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1 hour ago, Robert G. Smits said:

Enjoy those triplets and take a lot of cell phone videos.  I live 4 miles from my 15y/o triplet grandsons and being part of their life for the past 15 years has been the highlight of my existence.  

My wife takes care of the camera work.  Lol  The file size limitations of the forum keeps me from posting a video but here are some screen shots.  They are all about riding on or in any vehicle they can.

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One thing about Uncle Sam: he was very big on documentation! I'm sure there were military service manuals running hundreds of pagers. You should check with the military vehicle forums. There probably were Army and Navy versions of this vehicle as well. 

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2 hours ago, Leif in Calif said:

One thing about Uncle Sam: he was very big on documentation! I'm sure there were military service manuals running hundreds of pagers. You should check with the military vehicle forums. There probably were Army and Navy versions of this vehicle as well. 

That is a really good idea that I am embarrassed I never thought of.  Thank you so much sir.

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21 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

30PSI is plenty to be going on with. Waiting to see the result of a compression test. You should be ok without doing any major work.

Rusty, I am in further need of your wisdom. I pulled all of my spark plugs to check gap.  They all needed to be closed a little bit but I got them all done except for one.  The plug closest to the flywheel looked like it had been hit and the gap was almost completely closed.  When I looked in the hole, it looked like it made contact with wherever is under it.  The plugs that are in it are rv12yc champions.  Those are not what you said they should be and I wonder if my plugs are too long.  I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.

Also, I don’t know how to ask this without sounding like an idiot but where in the heck to I put oil in this engine?  Am I overlooking something obvious?

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54 minutes ago, InsideTrader said:

Rusty, I am in further need of your wisdom. I pulled all of my spark plugs to check gap.  They all needed to be closed a little bit but I got them all done except for one.  The plug closest to the flywheel looked like it had been hit and the gap was almost completely closed.  When I looked in the hole, it looked like it made contact with wherever is under it.  The plugs that are in it are rv12yc champions.  Those are not what you said they should be and I wonder if my plugs are too long.  I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.

Also, I don’t know how to ask this without sounding like an idiot but where in the heck to I put oil in this engine?  Am I overlooking something obvious?

Easy question first. That big pipe on the left side of the engine by the distributor is the oil filler. Pull off the black cap and there you are.

 

There may be something in the back cylinder that is not supposed to be there. If you have an air compressor stick the hose in the spark plug hole and blow it around, see if anything comes out or seems to be blowing around. Hope it's not a broken valve or piston. The spark plug is over the valves so unless you have a broken valve spring it should not hit the plug.

 

OEM spark plugs were Autolite. Yours may be the Champion equivalent. The number I gave is probably obsolete.

 

Did you do a compression test?

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43 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Easy question first. That big pipe on the left side of the engine by the distributor is the oil filler. Pull off the black cap and there you are.

 

There may be something in the back cylinder that is not supposed to be there. If you have an air compressor stick the hose in the spark plug hole and blow it around, see if anything comes out or seems to be blowing around. Hope it's not a broken valve or piston. The spark plug is over the valves so unless you have a broken valve spring it should not hit the plug.

 

OEM spark plugs were Autolite. Yours may be the Champion equivalent. The number I gave is probably obsolete.

 

Did you do a compression test?

The compression test has not happened yet.  I put a magnet on a stick in the hole and pulled on the valves as best as I could and they seemed solid.  Not sure if I would be able to tell if they weren’t that way.  I blew compressed air in the hole and I could not hear anything rattling around.  I put the magnet on a stick in the hole and used the compressor and nothing showed up on the magnet.  I am posting a picture of the scoring mark.  It looks like it’s a perfect arc as though the mark was made as the spark plug was screwed in.  I went to the local O’reilley’s and asked for an AR-8.  The couldn’t find such a thing.  I asked if the spark plug I pulled out of my engine was for my engine and they couldn’t tell me.  But the guy was able to type in my engine into the computer and it spit out an auto lite spark plug for it which looks way different than my plugs.  The ones I have in there now don’t have anything between the plug and the top of the head but the new ones have a little ring around the base of the threads.  I may have been running the wrong plugs.  There is definitely a difference between how deep they sit in the head.  I’m wondering if someone just found a spark plug with the right thread pitch and said good enough.

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2 hours ago, InsideTrader said:

Rusty, I am in further need of your wisdom. I pulled all of my spark plugs to check gap.  They all needed to be closed a little bit but I got them all done except for one.  The plug closest to the flywheel looked like it had been hit and the gap was almost completely closed.  When I looked in the hole, it looked like it made contact with wherever is under it.  The plugs that are in it are rv12yc champions.  Those are not what you said they should be and I wonder if my plugs are too long.  I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.

Also, I don’t know how to ask this without sounding like an idiot but where in the heck to I put oil in this engine?  Am I overlooking something obvious?

The plug with the closed gap may have been dropped by the installer and not checked prior to being screwed into the cylinder head.  This actually happened at a dealership I worked at. The tune-up tech went nuts until he found the plug with the closed gap.

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Tapered plugs that look like the one on the left were not a thing in 1951-52. The originals would have looked more or less like the one on the right. In addition to having the wrong type seat, the one on the left is a "projected tip" type. Projected tips were almost never used in Flatheads. They are fine, and maybe even better if you know they won't hit anything and the heat range is correct. That is a big if. Plug clearance in flatheads is tight. No matter though, because small diameter plugs with a tapered seat are definitely wrong for 1951-52.

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11 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Tapered plugs that look like the one on the left were not a thing in 1951-52. The originals would have looked more or less like the one on the right. In addition to having the wrong type seat, the one on the left is a "projected tip" type. Projected tips were almost never used in Flatheads. They are fine, and maybe even better if you know they won't hit anything and the heat range is correct. That is a big if. Plug clearance in flatheads is tight. No matter though, because small diameter plugs with a tapered seat are definitely wrong for 1951-52.

 

Correct.  When I worked for AC Sparkplug the plug on the right would be like an AC 45S which meant it had a skirted bottom of the plug.  That is the unthreaded area below the threads.  That gives the plug a little longer reach.   If it was an AC 45, it would look the same except with out the unthreaded area. 

 

The 4 designates the plug thread size and the 5 the HEAT RANGE. 

 

In your application you could probably use the same plug with or without the skirt, but it is best to use the correct plug. 

 

Heat range would change on engine condition.  If using a bunch of oil, use a hotter plug.  In the AC world that would be a 46 plug.

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Maybe they were some old airplane plugs they had lying around. Not hard to get the right plugs for a 52  Dodge, all the spark plug co's have them. They probably changed the part number a few times over the years. As a rule I prefer to use the OEM brand but it shouldn't make much difference which brand as long as they are the right part .

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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8 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Maybe they were some old airplane plugs they had lying around. Not hard to get the right plugs for a 52  Dodge, all the spark plug co's have them. They probably changed the part number a few times over the years. As a rule I prefer to use the OEM brand but it shouldn't make much difference which brand as long as they are the right plug.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lol no, those aren’t airplane plugs.  :)  I’ll get the compression test done and new plugs installed tomorrow and post the results.

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Neat rig you have.

I really like the bourbon coolant overflow bottle.

And the socket used for the alternator bracket is a neat conversation starter.

Best of luck with your stewardship and enjoy your daughters while they are young!

 

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2 hours ago, tom_in_nh said:

Neat rig you have.

I really like the bourbon coolant overflow bottle.

And the socket used for the alternator bracket is a neat conversation starter.

Best of luck with your stewardship and enjoy your daughters while they are young!

 

Lol thanks.  Both of those were done prior to me. I’m going to keep the bottle but I think I’ll machine a proper spacer for the alternator.  Not sure though.  And I am fully aware they will one day be teenagers and they won’t think it’s cool anymore to drive around on a tug with dad in the neighborhood so I am trying to get all of it I can right now.  :)

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2 hours ago, c49er said:

I run Autolite 295's in all my 218/230 engines. Have used them for the last 40 years.

Have worked on hundreds of MoPar flatheads...six and eights.

I’m glad to hear it because that’s what the guy at O’Reilleys sold me.  :)

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17 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:Did you do a compression test?

Ok the result are in.  I hope that 100psi number wasn’t the minimum.  :)

 

 

Compression Test

  1. 88
  2. 75
  3. 81
  4. 89
  5. 87
  6. 80

This is assuming the radiator end is cylinder 1 and the flywheel end is cylinder 6.  Cylinder 6 had the messed up spark plug.

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27 minutes ago, InsideTrader said:

Ok the result are in.  I hope that 100psi number wasn’t the minimum.  :)

 

 

Compression Test

  1. 88
  2. 75
  3. 81
  4. 89
  5. 87
  6. 80

This is assuming the radiator end is cylinder 1 and the flywheel end is cylinder 6.  Cylinder 6 had the messed up spark plug.

Yes, radiator end is #1.  If it were mine, I'd just drive it and have fun with it.  I would add a good carb/fuel injection cleaner, in a slightly rich mix (maybe 25% richer than the label suggests) to the fuel tank before topping off.  10W-30 or 15W-40 oil, changed HOT, once a year irrespective of mileage.  Consistent driving fresh motor oil may loosen up the valves and rings.  For a flathead, those numbers are just fine IMHO, especially if #2 improves after the recommended treatments (give it a year under your use).

 

Sucking and popping--don't worry about it.  Snug up (do NOT lean hard on wrench) carb mounting nuts and manifold nuts as a matter of general principles.

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2 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Yes, radiator end is #1.  If it were mine, I'd just drive it and have fun with it.  I would add a good carb/fuel injection cleaner, in a slightly rich mix (maybe 25% richer than the label suggests) to the fuel tank before topping off.  10W-30 or 15W-40 oil, changed HOT, once a year irrespective of mileage.  Consistent driving fresh motor oil may loosen up the valves and rings.  For a flathead, those numbers are just fine IMHO, especially if #2 improves after the recommended treatments (give it a year under your use).

 

Sucking and popping--don't worry about it.  Snug up (do NOT lean hard on wrench) carb mounting nuts and manifold nuts as a matter of general principles.

I appreciate that info.  Do you have any thoughts on why I might be hesitating when accelerating from an idle?  For a split second it sounds like it will die but it doesn’t.

And you feel like 10w-30 or 15w-40 would be better than 10w-40?

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10W-40 will be fine--you need a multigrade. 

 

Hesitation on acceleration:  Look for info on how (whether) you can adjust the accelerator pump, sounds like it should be a step richer.

 

I'd put a vacuum gauge on a warmed up engine as next diagnostic step--but do you have a vacuum port?  usually we put gauge on vacuum wipers source.  Next is distributor:  Is the vacuum advance working, and its hose intact (not leaking)?  Point gap to spec?

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6 minutes ago, Grimy said:

10W-40 will be fine--you need a multigrade. 

 

Hesitation on acceleration:  Look for info on how (whether) you can adjust the accelerator pump, sounds like it should be a step richer.

 

I'd put a vacuum gauge on a warmed up engine as next diagnostic step--but do you have a vacuum port?  usually we put gauge on vacuum wipers source.  Next is distributor:  Is the vacuum advance working, and its hose intact (not leaking)?  Point gap to spec?

You just went above my head.  :)  I might need to take it to someone for what I assume is a tune up.

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When your engine was new compression was about 120 and oil pressure 45. What you have now is a well worn 72 year old engine. The amazing thing about Chrysler built flatheads, is their ability to keep running in an advanced state of decay without knocks or bangs, without making a fuss of any kind. They just get slower, hard to start, and burn more oil and gas.

 

If that motor was in a car you planned to drive from coast to coast, or use for every day commuting I would suggest you plan on a rebuild. Not right away but in the near future.

 

In your case it will probably last as long as you want it to and if it doesn't, you haven't lost anything. So I would suggest you change oil, check points and plugs and reset to factory specs, adjust carb and let it go at that. A little heavier oil might curb oil burning a bit but don't go too heavy, 15W40 is fine. The main thing is it should have oil in the crankcase, don't let it run dry.

 

One little odd fact no one has mentioned. Your tug was made in 1961, two years after they stopped putting those engines in cars. By that time they were only available as industrial and marine engines, and in some heavy trucks and military vehicles.

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18 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

When your engine was new compression was about 120 and oil pressure 45. What you have now is a well worn 72 year old engine. The amazing thing about Chrysler built flatheads, is their ability to keep running in an advanced state of decay without knocks or bangs, without making a fuss of any kind. They just get slower, hard to start, and burn more oil and gas.

 

If that motor was in a car you planned to drive from coast to coast, or use for every day commuting I would suggest you plan on a rebuild. Not right away but in the near future.

 

In your case it will probably last as long as you want it to and if it doesn't, you haven't lost anything. So I would suggest you change oil, check points and plugs and reset to factory specs, adjust carb and let it go at that. A little heavier oil might curb oil burning a bit but don't go too heavy, 15W40 is fine. The main thing is it should have oil in the crankcase, don't let it run dry.

 

One little odd fact no one has mentioned. Your tug was made in 1961, two years after they stopped putting those engines in cars. By that time they were only available as industrial and marine engines, and in some heavy trucks and military vehicles.

Rusty sir, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate you.  I feel like I half way have a handle on the situation now.  :)

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From a private message InsiderTrader sent me.  Others will know more and be able to answer

Quote

can I ask you a question about the vacuum advance?  The distributor side of that vacuum line has what looks like electrical tape around it.  I have also noticed a leaking air sound that I didn't think too much of until your post.  Is it possible I have a vacuum leak in that line someone tried to fix with tape?  And can I simply take that line to an auto parts store and get a new one to replace it?  Is it that simple?

 

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1 hour ago, 1939_Buick said:

From a private message InsiderTrader sent me.  Others will know more and be able to answer

 

 

1 hour ago, 1939_Buick said:

can I ask you a question about the vacuum advance?  The distributor side of that vacuum line has what looks like electrical tape around it.  I have also noticed a leaking air sound that I didn't think too much of until your post.  Is it possible I have a vacuum leak in that line someone tried to fix with tape?  And can I simply take that line to an auto parts store and get a new one to replace it?  Is it that simple?

I wouldn't put anything past the bird who put in those spark plugs and installed that alternator. The rubber hose from the carb to the distributor is a standard item you can buy by the foot at any auto parts store. Suggest you take the old one off and buy a new one.

 

If you want to get icky, the 1952 Dodge had a solid steel line. By 1961 most cars were using a rubber hose. If they put the newer carb and distributor on the old engine, it would explain the rubber hose. If it is a mixture of parts it could be a home made lash up.

Edited by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)
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MoPar Industrial engines generally don't have vacuum advance distributors.

In a car yes...better performance and better mpg.

The compression #'s are low and kinda even...as long as it always starts and runs fair run it. Possibly worn ring lands and compression rings. Common in old high mileage/hours four ring  MoPar flatheads. 

Run it...enjoy it!

 

 

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21 hours ago, InsideTrader said:

There is a sucking and popping sound coming from the carburetor.  When I touch the accelerator the sucking gets worse and the engine hesitated before an increase in RPM.

Sucking and popping noise at carb throat is common, not all the fuel is efficiently converted from liquid into vapor at all times in the venturi so it can "slobber" some liquid fuel at times. Excess slobber of liquid fuel however can create an over rich fuel mixture, kind of a fine line between normal/OK and too much.

 

Hesitation on throttle up can be caused by vacuum leak like bad vacuum hoses or loose carb/intake manifold or failed accelerator pump diaphragm (if equipped). If carb is equipped with a pickup pump, the pump is mechanically linked to the throttle plate linkage and when you open the throttle it is supposed to add a spray of additional fuel into the carb throat. That richens the fuel mix for a moment to prevent fuel starvation under medium to heavy acceleration.

 

If no accelerator pump present then hesitation may be more about vaccuum leak or high speed jet adjustment being a bit too lean (not quite enough fuel for the air going through the carb).

 

Not sure if you have posted any other photos of the carb or any identifying information (manufacturer and model number) on the brand of carb, that may be helpful to help determine how to correct the hesitation.

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8 hours ago, ABear said:

Sucking and popping noise at carb throat is common, not all the fuel is efficiently converted from liquid into vapor at all times in the venturi so it can "slobber" some liquid fuel at times. Excess slobber of liquid fuel however can create an over rich fuel mixture, kind of a fine line between normal/OK and too much.

 

Hesitation on throttle up can be caused by vacuum leak like bad vacuum hoses or loose carb/intake manifold or failed accelerator pump diaphragm (if equipped). If carb is equipped with a pickup pump, the pump is mechanically linked to the throttle plate linkage and when you open the throttle it is supposed to add a spray of additional fuel into the carb throat. That richens the fuel mix for a moment to prevent fuel starvation under medium to heavy acceleration.

 

If no accelerator pump present then hesitation may be more about vaccuum leak or high speed jet adjustment being a bit too lean (not quite enough fuel for the air going through the carb).

 

Not sure if you have posted any other photos of the carb or any identifying information (manufacturer and model number) on the brand of carb, that may be helpful to help determine how to correct the hesitation.

I mentioned in a previous post that I suspected a leak in the vacuum advance line because there is a ton of electrical tape wrapped around the distributor end of it.  So tonight I unwrapped it only to find that the hose barb had broken off sometime in history so instead of replacing it, someone just butted the hose up to the hole and wrapped it with electrical tape.  So I’ll replace that tomorrow.  Maybe it was still sealing well but I have my doubts.

 

I found a YouTube video of a guy with the same engine and his was hesitating exactly like mine is.  They sounded identical.  His was a timing issue.  He adjusted the timing and solved his issue.  I have never adjusted timing in my life other than on a diesel engine.  I’ve YouTubed it and I know you loosen that screw and twist the distributor but I don’t understand timing light usage nor do I have one.  I’ve also heard of people timing with a vacuum gauge but I don’t feel I have a really good understanding of that either.  I’ve also heard horror stories of guys not timing correctly and either damaging their engine by firing way too soon or running the engine way too hot on the EGTs.  So screwing with the timing makes me nervous.  I was hoping it could be as simple as trial and error and just adjust it until it sounds like it’s running the best.  But I haven’t seen any YouTube videos of guys doing that.  :)

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Carb looks brand spanking new or a brand new rebuilt carb.

 

May never been setup correctly and was just stuck on and hope for the best.

 

Not familiar with that carb or if it is correct one for the engine, someone else would have to chime in on that.

 

The lone screw with a spring standing proud at the base of the carb behind the vaccuum port in the one pix most likely is the fuel mixture adjustment. Carb may or may not have high and low speed mixture adjustments.

 

As far as timing goes, I have never had a hesitation caused by wrong timing. But, I suppose it could be possible, most hesitations are lack of fuel caused from carb being too lean (vaccum leaks) or not adjusted. I am not sure if or where Chrysler put timing marks on engines back in those years but typically you will find a series of marks stamped or molded into the front crankshaft dampener pulley. There should also be a small metal "pointer" around the side or top of the dampener pulley.. Timing light will have a connection to plug number one and a pos and neg connection to battery. Start engine and point the the timing light at the crankshaft pulley aiming for the pointer area.. Pull trigger and the light will blink and off with the number one plug spark.. Typically timing is set at idle speed with no vacuum advance connected.

 

You will have to search the web for timing specs for that engine..

 

To adjust the timing, you loosen the retaining bolt holding the distributor from turning slightly (just loose enough you can turn the distributor by hand but not too loose). Once you can turn the distributor you turn it slightly one direction or the other until you reach the timing spec for that engine. The engine idle speed will change as you turn the distributor so you may need to readjust the idle speed when done.

 

As far as the health of your engine rings goes, if the engine isn't blowing blue smoke from exhaust, then the rings are doing a good enough job.

 

Black smoke from the exhaust when accelerating would be a indicator of way to much fuel (overly rich) situation and adjustment to the fuel mixture is needed.

 

Too lean of mixture typically doesn't present any hints at the exhaust side but will typically show up as hard starting when cold or hesitation.

 

The broken distributor advance port could cause a lean condition Vacuum leak), you can plug the vacuum line to see if that helps. Wont hurt just means the distributor can't add more advance than the internal mechanical advance.

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