ABear Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Jack, I consider it a privilege to be here on this forum, it is a privilege to take my own learning experiences in life from childhood to present and translate that to helping folks. I am not a "professional" auto mechanic. I grew up around many old school things, my Dad owned a oilwell in the PA oil fields. I learned how to care for that well and the hit and miss engine, many many lessons from my Dad on mechanical stuff, oils, greases. Spent many, many nights and evenings working beside my Dad tearing down and rebuilding various auto engines, even a few automatic transmissions. Yes, he was old school, just like yourself, absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, as life goes on, there are times where one is forced to substitute old school things with newer products in order to keep older items in running shape.. A very good example of this is try finding TRUE "type A" labeled transmission fluid.. Yeah, that one is in the history books. Generally accepted that Dexron replaced (IE can be substituted for) Type A.. Can still find Type F, but that isn't typically available in retail stores (the only place I can find is Amazon). Many, many oils and greases over the yrs have been discontinued/no longer available due to being superseded by newer versions so the reality is even though your manual printed in 1950s says to use a certain grease or oil, that should be consider as the MINIMUM recommendation and many newer oils and greases EXCEED those minimum specifications. Generally, you can almost never go wrong using oils and greases that EXCEED the manufacturers minimum recommendations. I have a 1960s lawn and garden tractor that my Dad bought new, the single grade oil speced for the transmission simply does not exist, after researching I found that I could substitute more modern multi-vis gear oils with similar weight range. As I mentioned, newer multi-vis oils are low or no zinc (ZDDP), that does bring a bit concern for some older engines, but you can offset that missing zinc package by just adding the recommended ZDDP additive and call it a day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 2 minutes ago, ABear said: Jack, I consider it a privilege to be here on this forum, it is a privilege to take my own learning experiences in life from childhood to present and translate that to helping folks. I am not a "professional" auto mechanic. I grew up around many old school things, my Dad owned a oilwell in the PA oil fields. I learned how to care for that well and the hit and miss engine, many many lessons from my Dad on mechanical stuff, oils, greases. Spent many, many nights and evenings working beside my Dad tearing down and rebuilding various auto engines, even a few automatic transmissions. Yes, he was old school, just like yourself, absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, as life goes on, there are times where one is forced to substitute old school things with newer products in order to keep older items in running shape.. A very good example of this is try finding TRUE "type A" labeled transmission fluid.. Yeah, that one is in the history books. Generally accepted that Dexron replaced (IE can be substituted for) Type A.. Can still find Type F, but that isn't typically available in retail stores (the only place I can find is Amazon). Many, many oils and greases over the yrs have been discontinued/no longer available due to being superseded by newer versions so the reality is even though your manual printed in 1950s says to use a certain grease or oil, that should be consider as the MINIMUM recommendation and many newer oils and greases EXCEED those minimum specifications. Generally, you can almost never go wrong using oils and greases that EXCEED the manufacturers minimum recommendations. I have a 1960s lawn and garden tractor that my Dad bought new, the single grade oil speced for the transmission simply does not exist, after researching I found that I could substitute more modern multi-vis gear oils with similar weight range. As I mentioned, newer multi-vis oils are low or no zinc (ZDDP), that does bring a bit concern for some older engines, but you can offset that missing zinc package by just adding the recommended ZDDP additive and call it a day. Words of wisdom. Can only add, zinc was first added to motor oils in the early fifties when some of the first OHV engines had cam and lifter wear problems. Their valve trains were heavier with stiffer springs than flathead engines and put more stress on the cams and lifters. The zinc was taken out when all OEM manufacturers went to OHC and roller lifter cams and flat tappet pushrod V8s joined the Dodo birds. In other words if you have a flathead, OHC or roller cam engine don't worry about the zinc. If you have a high perf pushrod OHV V8 you may need the zinc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) IMO for what it is worth, any oil today is better than the best oil "in the day" I use multi-viscosity in all of my old cars and have not had any problems yet and we drive them a lot. As for the zinc, from what I have read it is necessary for high compression, high valve spring tension engines. Edited March 22 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bennett Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 I ran the tests on the engine I bought to replace the one original to the Fargo. But, I was told that the guy, who sold the engine to the guys boss, from whom I bought the engine, thought it may have been rebuilt. The engine specs were all good for a engine of the sort, and the age of the one I bought. I bought an engine to replace a locked up engine in a ninety five year old truck. The purchase of the truck, and everything I spend to return it to being operational, is considered in the same vein as when I owned a boat, used the motor home and ate in a restaurant. In the same breath, I will add that more stuff is broken by being fixed, than fails through normal use and it is not on my list of pleasures to needlessly “fix” anything on this engine. So, not knowing when, or if, the inside of the engine was sludged up or would need to be disassembled, I bought five quarts of 30 weight, non detergent motor oil, off the shelf, at a O’Reilly’s, which I pass wherever I go. The 30 weight oil is less than $.6.00 a quart, which makes it easier to throw away than the $7.00+ a quart for the next step up of multi-vis oil. Now I have ran the engine to its normal operating temperature and can see that it is still clean, has no water or gas and seems to be ok. Now I will replace it with new straight 30 weight oil, because that’s what the other cars in my stable use, buy a new filter, which is actually a sock, and feel relatively confident my old engine survives another seventy years. My KIA gets serviced and fed by the KIA dealership, and I have a lifetime maintenance and oil change contract. My Ford E-450 based motor home is dropped by the Ford dealership, I come back to pick it up in a day or two, and the extent of my involvement in maintenance and lubrication service starts and ends when they anvil my credit card. The 1995 Ford F-250 is a different story altogether. It is used on the Highway, at highway speeds, and has recently been depended on to pull a trailer, and the truck it was carrying, over 400 miles. This truck is fed high quality, high detergent, multi-vis oil and the transmission and differential is maintained, by me, by the book. Now, to the drudgeries of cyber talk. I have been advised to stick to “the topic”, and refrain from making comments to posts and threads other than those I, personally, originate. Thus, since I did not originate this particular thread, and the issue was extensively discussed, with exactly the same outcome, in a 2013 thread, I must step away from further comment. Jack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 14 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said: The 30 weight oil is less than $.6.00 a quart, which makes it easier to throw away than the $7.00+ a quart for the next step up of multi-vis oil. $5.99 for conventional straight 30W HD at O Reilly right now https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/o-reilly-oil/chemicals---fluids/oil/motor-oil---vehicle-specific/5fb4d14d310a/o-reilly-conventional-motor-oil-30w-1-quart/oro0/hd30 OR You get conventional 10W 30 multi-vis at your O Reilly store for $4.80 per quart in a 5 qt jug ($23.99 for the jug) https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/o-reilly-oil/oil--chemicals---fluids/motor-oil/motor-oil---vehicle-specific/5fb4d14d310a/o-reilly-conventional-motor-oil-10w-30-5-quart/oro0/10305qt Cost advantage of buying straight 30 weight simply does not exist. Both above are "conventional" dino oil but yet the multi-vis version is a few pennies cheaper than straight weight. You might be thinking of of Synthetic multi-vis and with that you would be correct as it is a bit more expensive at $7.49 a qt.. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/o-reilly-oil/oil--chemicals---fluids/motor-oil/motor-oil---vehicle-specific/5fb4d14d310a/o-reilly-synthetic-motor-oil-10w-30-1-quart/oro0/syn1030 ALL of the above oils not only meet the manufacturers requirements, it all exceeds the requirements for a 1950s era engine.. The HD 30W has more additives than the now fully obsolete 30W and unless you can find new old stock of plain conventional non HD 30W you are forced to use a more modern oil than what your vehicle manufacturer required. Take some piece that you are not going to hurt or destroy your older engines if you slip in some 10w 30 conventional motor oil and in the end, will save you a few pennies per oil change. For the record, I use conventional 10w 30 (IE no synthetic) in all of my modern vehicles and they have served me very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 To me this thread on a 1961 airport tug with a 1952 Dodge engine has had enough comments on oil specification. During it 10~15-20 what ever years at the airport Beechcraft FBO doubt it had straight 30 weight oil. It may have had aircraft engine oil. These old Mopar 6 cylinder engines are very tough. It will have a gentle life from now on 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 20 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: Ok here is an update… I finally got some time to mess with the distributor. I learned immediately that I was already maxed in one direction and the other direction made things worse. I found a second bolt on the back of the distributor and after monkeying with it for a while, I was able to get more timing range out of it. I was able to adjust it and get the engine to sound better and I got three more inches out of the vacuum gauge. So I got from 17 to 20. By throttle response is now WAY better. The engine doesn’t act like it wants to die now before giving me more power. Next, I started to adjust the only adjustment screw on the carb. I didn’t see much of a change in the vacuum gauge at all. So I leaned it out until the engine complained and then gave it more fuel until it stopped and then gave it just a little more. I don’t have a tach but I might be able to borrow one if anyone can tell me how fast it should idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 13 hours ago, 1939_Buick said: To me this thread on a 1961 airport tug with a 1952 Dodge engine has had enough comments on oil specification. During it 10~15-20 what ever years at the airport Beechcraft FBO doubt it had straight 30 weight oil. It may have had aircraft engine oil. These old Mopar 6 cylinder engines are very tough. It will have a gentle life from now on OP did ask about what oil to use and OP did get a barrage of answers, which some answers are based more of on fear of damage or some newer oils cost more and why should I spend more when not needed. Oils is a hot topic most anywhere you go because many folks find it mysterious and expensive. Good discussions with knowledge and understanding goes a long way to helping folks understand that the oils speced yesteryear are often superceeded (IE replaced) by newer modern versions. There are only a few cases where using a modern oil as a replacement may not work as well but those tend to be few and far between. Even my old school Dad eventually succumbed to using multi-vis oils, found a case of multi-vis oil in his garage after he passed.. He preached the benefits of straight weight non HD oil to me all my life, but even he was not able to escape the reality that things do change. As far as cost, as I showed, conventional multi-vis doesn't cost more than conventional straight weight HD oils. Even Synthetics have dramatically dropped in price from when they were introduced (I remember something like $20 per qt), now they are only about $1 more per qt and a 5 qt change is $5 more, almost no real difference but I am not really convinced synthetics have much of any benefits or advantage so I don't use them. As far as the OPs tug, yeah, I am sure the airport simply slammed in whatever they had laying around, most likely the same oil they would use for most piston slapping gas engines in airplanes. Carry on.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 20" vacuum is pretty good, probably about as good as you are going to get. You can get more adjustment on the distributor by moving the plug wires one spot to the right or left as the case may require. Or you could really go to town and time it from scratch, moving the distributor to the recommended position and changing the mesh of the gears. To do this you would have to pull out the distributor and put it back in with the rotor repositioned, after setting the engine to top dead center. There are 2 spring loaded adjustment screws. One at the bottom of the carb for mixture, the other on the throttle linkage for idle speed. Start by turning in the mixture screw until the engine slows down or blubbers, then back out 3/4 turn. Now go to the idle speed and slow it down as far as you dare, stock is 400RPM* very slow, it may not go this slow if the engine is worn. You want the slowest idle speed without danger of stalling. If you had to adjust the speed a lot, you may have to go back and touch up the mixture then do the idle speed again. Carb should be adjusted last, after the ignition is optimized. The rule is, adjust valves first, then do ignition, carb adjustment last. Some carburetors also have a fast idle adjustment for when they are cold and the choke is on, this is like the idle speed but separate. *Idle speed is about HALF a modern engine, if it seems too slow, but idles steady and picks up smoothly when you hit the throttle it is about right. 400RPM Edited March 23 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 1 hour ago, InsideTrader said: I found a second bolt on the back of the distributor and after monkeying with it for a while, I was able to get more timing range out of it. I was able to adjust it and get the engine to sound better and I got three more inches out of the vacuum gauge. So I got from 17 to 20. You may be fine, but just a word of warning, it is possible to set initial timing too advanced, and pinging and bucking against the starter will be the result. As an example, my ‘62 LOVES a lot of initial advance, and it runs the smoothest with the highest vacuum reading at about 25*. However, when the centrifugal and vacuum advance comes in on the road, it starts knocking, and it also tries to buck against the starter when it is hot. Your experience may be different, but realize that this is a possibility using this method. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 10 minutes ago, Lee H said: You may be fine, but just a word of warning, it is possible to set initial timing too advanced, and pinging and bucking against the starter will be the result. As an example, my ‘62 LOVES a lot of initial advance, and it runs the smoothest with the highest vacuum reading at about 25*. However, when the centrifugal and vacuum advance comes in on the road, it starts knocking, and it also tries to buck against the starter when it is hot. Your experience may be different, but realize that this is a possibility using this method. I like some extra initial advance, too, but as @Lee H says, it can result in pinging under hill climbing or hard starting. That's *best* done when you can retard the spark for starting or under load from the dash, probably not available on your tug. In my long-ago youth when we used to do "power tuning" by advancing the distributor to max vacuum, after reaching max vac, we'd then retard at least 0.5 inch, usually 1 inch of mercury. So if max vac was 20.0, we'd set distributor to 19.0-19.5 inches then test drive. If pinging or hard starting resulted, we'd back off another half-inch of mercury. Suggest you test drive and see what works best for you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 15 hours ago, ABear said: $5.99 for conventional straight 30W HD at O Reilly right now Full synthetic at Costco is about $3.95/quart made by the Warren Oil Co, California. Edited March 23 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 11 minutes ago, Larry Schramm said: Full synthetic at Costco is about $3.95/quart made by the Warren Oil Co, California. Yes, it is possible to buy Synthetics or any oil elsewhere at better prices.. Buying engine oil and filters at Auto parts stores which are PARTS RETAILERS isn't really the smartest or cheapest way to go about it. Oil and filters are "consumables" that can be purchased elsewhere for better pricing. In other words, buy auto parts at auto parts stores but SHOP AROUND buy your oil and filters at places that have better pricing. I only buy at auto parts stores for auto parts as that is what they are there for (IE PARTS), they are for parts that can't be found elsewhere and generally are cheaper than buying at a dealership. Additionally, one can buy 5qt jugs of oil which is sold at much lower prices.. Example, a single qt of oil around my area is going for $6, but yet I can buy a 5qt jug of same oil for $22 which is $4.40 per qt.. Guess what version I buy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 4 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: 20" vacuum is pretty good, probably about as good as you are going to get. You can get more adjustment on the distributor by moving the plug wires one spot to the right or left as the case may require. Or you could really go to town and time it from scratch, moving the distributor to the recommended position and changing the mesh of the gears. To do this you would have to pull out the distributor and put it back in with the rotor repositioned, after setting the engine to top dead center. There are 2 spring loaded adjustment screws. One at the bottom of the carb for mixture, the other on the throttle linkage for idle speed. Start by turning in the mixture screw until the engine slows down or blubbers, then back out 3/4 turn. Now go to the idle speed and slow it down as far as you dare, stock is 400RPM* very slow, it may not go this slow if the engine is worn. You want the slowest idle speed without danger of stalling. If you had to adjust the speed a lot, you may have to go back and touch up the mixture then do the idle speed again. Carb should be adjusted last, after the ignition is optimized. The rule is, adjust valves first, then do ignition, carb adjustment last. Some carburetors also have a fast idle adjustment for when they are cold and the choke is on, this is like the idle speed but separate. *Idle speed is about HALF a modern engine, if it seems too slow, but idles steady and picks up smoothly when you hit the throttle it is about right. 400RPM After I used the second screw to get more adjustment out of the distributor, I was able to adjust it far enough that my vacuum started to drop off after going past peak. So I think I have enough adjustment. I’m not trying to chase the lowest possible way quarter mile time. I just want it to run relatively good and not be damaging itself by being way out of time or by running crazy lean or rich. Based on what you’re seeing, do I have it dialed in well enough to run it this way for 50 more years? I think I will chase a lower idle though. The tug has a clutch like any manual transmission but it also has a torque converter. It would be nice if it did idle pretty low. The torque converter overpowers the brakes in the low gears with the idle as high as it is now. Lower idle might solve that. But in the past when it wanted to die with the initial adding of throttle, I didn’t want it to idle too low because the torque converter wanted to add load at the same time it wanted to die. Now it might be preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 6 hours ago, InsideTrader said: Next, I started to adjust the only adjustment screw on the carb. I am curious about this carburetor with only 1 adjustment screw. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 18 minutes ago, carbking said: I am curious about this carburetor with only 1 adjustment screw. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) Insider in the top photo in the above post you can see 2 adjustment screws at the base of the carb. The 2 spring loaded screws with coil springs under them. The one on the right is idle mixture, the one on the left is idle speed. In the last photo you can see the idle mixture. Hope this is clear. Warm up your motor first. To adjust carb, Start by backing off the idle speed to 400 RPM or as slow as it will go and run steady. Then, slowly screw in the mixture screw until the engine slows then back it out 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. This should give the best or fastest idle speed. If the adjustment is way off you may have to go back and forth a couple of times, fine tuning to get it exactly right. When it is right you should be able to drop it in gear without moving, or moving very slowly, and take off without stalling or bucking. By the way it's good you did not disturb the distributor, I think I was wrong in my last post, in your motor the gear stays in the motor and pulling the distributor will not change its position. Your distributor has a shaft that ends in a tab that fits in a slot in the drive. Later.. just remembered you have a vacuum gauge. You can use it to adjust the carb mixture, adjust for highest vacuum and smooth running. Edited March 24 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 33 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: So had a couple of setbacks tonight. I tried to start it and the engine was spinning really slow. I grabbed the negative battery cable and it was very hot. Turns out it is almost completely severed where it mates to the head. So I used jumper cables connected to my car and it started but it struggled to do so. It hasn’t been a great starter but I think it might be a little worse now. Once it got running it was sitting a lot of black smoke out of the exhaust. I thought I may have made the carb too rich and I messed with the right screw for quite a while. I was surprised how little it changed anything and I couldn’t get the black smoke to stop. After a while I figured out that after my first start attempt from the drivers seat, I switched to jumper cables started it from the engine bay. I left it at full choke which is why it was making black smoke. I pushed in the choke and it cleared up. I felt like an idiot but at least it was an easy fix. I hopped on and let it roll down my slopes driveway and drove it up repeatedly trying t gauge how my engine was doing. I’m pretty sure I don’t have the carb adjusted correctly since I was adjusting it to run at full choke. I eventually stalled it and decided to call it quits until I get a new battery cable. What is confusing me is that when I was adjusting it, I screwed it all the way in and it didn’t kill the engine. What I realized it that it wasn’t all the way in. It just got really hard to turn but would still go in further. It got really hard to turn but never did kill the engine. I am not sure how hard to force it to fine the point it slows to back it off the 1/2 to 3/4 turn. I also discovered my vacuum line conducts electricity. I learned that the hard way. It was also laying across the plug wires so that may have been screwing things up. So anyways, I’m planning to swap the negative cable and then kind of start from scratch. I think the distributor is still good. I’m pretty sure my issue is carb. But I’m not even sure the carb is the correct carb. I don’t know if carbs even need to be matched to an engine or if any single barrel carb can be put on it and all will be fine. I’ve also questioned if that valve thing between the intake and exhaust manifold might be stuck on the wrong spot. So I said all of that to say, still a lot of unknowns but pretty sure I’m not to the “good enough” point yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 If you drive the adjusting screw in hard you can wreck the carburetor. It is supposed to have a long tapered point that goes into a hole. You could take it out and look at it. If it is a smooth tapered point ok. If it is mashed and chewed up it is ruined and possibly the carb is ruined too. If it is ok put it back in place and GENTLY screw it in until it bottoms then back out 1 1/2 turns, that should give a good starting point. Maybe the carbking will chime in I am about out of ideas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said: If you drive the adjusting screw in hard you can wreck the carburetor. It is supposed to have a long tapered point that goes into a hole. You could take it out and look at it. If it is a smooth tapered point ok. If it is mashed and chewed up it is ruined and possibly the carb is ruined too. If it is ok put it back in place and GENTLY screw it in until it bottoms then back out 1 1/2 turns, that should give a good starting point. Maybe the carbking will chime in I am about out of ideas. That will be tomorrows project then. Thank you sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 (edited) Idle mixture adjustment screws if possible should be adjusted using yourfingers. Edited March 24 by c49er (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 (edited) 10 hours ago, InsideTrader said: I think I will chase a lower idle though. The tug has a clutch like any manual transmission but it also has a torque converter. It would be nice if it did idle pretty low. The torque converter overpowers the brakes in the low gears with the idle as high as it is now. Lower idle might solve that. But in the past when it wanted to die with the initial adding of throttle, I didn’t want it to idle too low because the torque converter wanted to add load at the same time it wanted to die. Now it might be preferable. It may have a MOPAR fluid drive, which is not exactly the same as torque converter. With the tug made in 1961 it could have been carried across from a decade before. Would be a useful in a tug which had a life of moving very slowly and gently. Those engines were also used in many forklifts years after they stopped being put into cars-pickups. Basically industrial use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_Drive https://www.allpar.com/threads/the-chrysler-plymouth-dodge-desoto-fluid-drive.229898/?post_id=1085223996&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-1085223996 https://forums.aaca.org/topic/181919-chrysler-guys-explain-fluid-drive-to-me/ https://forums.aaca.org/topic/225149-questions-about-1950-dodge-meadowbrook-w-fluid-drive/ https://56packardman.blog/2015/01/10/chryslers-fluid-drive/ Quote Fluid Drive is a transmission driveline combination offered from 1939 through 1953 in Chryslers, 1940 through 1953 in DeSotos, and from 1941 through 1954 in Dodge models. The fluid drive element was a hydraulic coupling inserted in place of the flywheel, and performed the same function as a modern torque converter, only without torque multiplication. A conventional clutch and three-speed manual transmission was installed behind the fluid coupling, although a semi-automatic was optional from 1941 for Chrysler and DeSoto and from 1949 for Dodge. Fluid Drive eliminated the need for gear changes using the clutch in most cases. DeSotos and Dodges equipped with Fluid Drive thus became a favorite of taxi fleets – the taxi driver could drive all day and rarely use the clutch. Edited March 24 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 (edited) 11 hours ago, InsideTrader said: I tried to start it and the engine was spinning really slow. I grabbed the negative battery cable and it was very hot. This may be because the timing is too far advanced. See warnings above. Edited March 24 by Lee H (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 12 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: If you drive the adjusting screw in hard you can wreck the carburetor. It is supposed to have a long tapered point that goes into a hole. You could take it out and look at it. If it is a smooth tapered point ok. If it is mashed and chewed up it is ruined and possibly the carb is ruined too. If it is ok put it back in place and GENTLY screw it in until it bottoms then back out 1 1/2 turns, that should give a good starting point. Maybe the carbking will chime in I am about out of ideas. The pictured unit APPEARS to be one of the imitation Zenith carbs, coming from an unknown source. If true, to my knowledge there is zero documentation as to settings, so basically initial setting is by guesstimate. If I am wrong about the origin, and there is a name/identification anywhere on the unit so it may be identified, then I can probably supply better suggestions. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 16 hours ago, InsideTrader said: What is confusing me is that when I was adjusting it, I screwed it all the way in and it didn’t kill the engine. What I realized it that it wasn’t all the way in. It just got really hard to turn but would still go in further. It got really hard to turn but never did kill the engine. I am not sure how hard to force it to fine the point it slows to back it off the 1/2 to 3/4 turn. You do not adjust mixture screw for "almost killing then engine". What you are looking for is a "peak" in RPM and smoothness of the engine and nothing more. Basically turn in note RPM drop and runs rough, then turn out and note where engine picks up RPM and vacuum and smoothness. If you go past the peak, you will notice RPM and vacuum drop and smoothness turns rough. You basically want the butter zone peak which is in between the in setting and the out setting. You do not need to get super precise as the mixture will vary some depending on air temps, how hot, humid, dry your climate is which changes all the time. Turning in, the spring on the screw makes it more difficult to turn in, turning out, spring load gets easier which is normal, do not force the screw in as that will easily damage the needle and seat. Your most likely looking at 1/4 turn before and past the peak and in the middle of that will be the sweet spot. The spring load is there to put enough load to prevent screw from turning on it's own from vibration, some carbs are designed with mixture screws that do not have or need the spring. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 24 Author Share Posted March 24 @Rusty_OToole I pulled the screw all the way out. It did not seem to be deformed. The tip was blunt but also had a nice smooth taper after the blunt end like it was made that way. Nothing looked mushroomed or deformed. I got the battery cable swapped out and the starter spins a lot faster. I’m hoping that takes care of my starting issues. It started to rain on me so I didn’t actually start it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 25 Author Share Posted March 25 On 3/23/2024 at 1:23 PM, Grimy said: I like some extra initial advance, too, but as @Lee H says, it can result in pinging under hill climbing or hard starting. That's *best* done when you can retard the spark for starting or under load from the dash, probably not available on your tug. In my long-ago youth when we used to do "power tuning" by advancing the distributor to max vacuum, after reaching max vac, we'd then retard at least 0.5 inch, usually 1 inch of mercury. So if max vac was 20.0, we'd set distributor to 19.0-19.5 inches then test drive. If pinging or hard starting resulted, we'd back off another half-inch of mercury. Suggest you test drive and see what works best for you. Well as I’ve said before… my goal isn’t lower quarter mile time. It’s best running and reliable engine that isn’t destroying itself. So if I need to retard to 19 or 19.5. I don’t mind doing that. I was under the impression that timing to best vacuum was foolproof but if not I can retard. And is retarding clockwise or counterclockwise? In all honesty, I’m in my 30s and have grown up in a fuel injected world. I’m not sure id even know what pinging or detonating sounds like and I’m not sure I’ve ever even heard it. What I really need is one of you guys that knows what you’re doing to live near me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 25 minutes ago, InsideTrader said: What I really need is one of you guys that knows what you’re doing to live near me. Yes! Where are you? I'm in SF Bay Area. I find on pre-war cars which have spark control, a lot of initial advance results in rough idle, so I'll retard the spark via lever on steering wheel or dash when a smooth idle is desired--and *definitely* for starting. So if you (probably) don't have spark control from driver's seat, you may not be able to get as much initial advance as you think you want. Set for what works best for you and the kind of driving you'll be doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 (edited) 36 minutes ago, InsideTrader said: In all honesty, I’m in my 30s and have grown up in a fuel injected world. I’m not sure id even know what pinging or detonating sounds like and I’m not sure I’ve ever even heard it. Spark ping which is basically preignition, sounds a bit like marbles being shaken in a tin can, very light tinny rattling noise. Generally only happens when you stomp the accelerator or you have a heavy load like going uphill and you give extra throttle to maintain speed. Generally goes away when you let up on throttle but comes right back if you add throttle. More prevalent in high compression engines when using too low of grade octane with your load or you have excessive initial engine timing combined with spark advance adding more timing. Modern computer controlled engines typically have knock/ping sensors that detect pinging and when pinging is detected will automatically adjust engine timing and even the fuel delivery to stop the pinging which is why most folks driving modern vehicles don't know what it sounds like. Often confused with engine knock, engine knock doesn't have a light tin can sound. Ping can typically be corrected by setting initial timing back close to stock some and/or limiting max spark advance degrees (there are ways to adjust the spark advance, but I would recommend leaving that alone). I should also note, excessive initial engine timing can result in the engine bucking against the starter when trying to start the engine. That happens when the spark occurs too quickly before top dead center and that ignition pushes the piston before it reaches TDC at starting speed. The spark advance system built in to the distributor then compensates timing as the RPMs change to allow for maximum efficiency. Edited March 25 by ABear (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 OK good put the idle screw back in and GENTLY all the way until it bottoms then back it out 1 1/2 turns, that should be a good spot to start. Warm up the motor, take off the choke, adjust the mixture for highest vacuum, adjust the idle speed for 400 RPM or slowest steady speed without stalling. You may have to go back and forth between mixture and speed a couple of times to get it just right, if the idle speed is too high to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 10 hours ago, InsideTrader said: In all honesty, I’m in my 30s and have grown up in a fuel injected world. I’m not sure id even know what pinging or detonating sounds like and I’m not sure I’ve ever even heard it. I suddenly feel so old this morning. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 25 Author Share Posted March 25 @Grimy I’m in just East of Tulsa, Ok. Is that too far of a drive for you? @ABear I am a pilot and my plane is the only other carbureted engine I own. They cover pinging and detonation in flight school because in a plane you have mixture control in the cockpit and can lean yourself out too much and destroy your engine. This has resulted in the rich or peak vs lean of peak debates. But since I was told how to avoid pinging or early detonation, I avoid it and have never heard it. My question for you is… Would this be obvious to me or do I need to be paying attention to notice it? And would bucking the starter be obvious to me? I have not noticed any rapid reversal in the radiator fan or odd sounds when it’s trying to start and I get the random cylinder firing before it completely starts. @Rusty_OToole I plan to take your advice as always sir. Thank you. @Lee H Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABear Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, InsideTrader said: I am a pilot and my plane is the only other carbureted engine I own. They cover pinging and detonation in flight school because in a plane you have mixture control in the cockpit and can lean yourself out too much and destroy your engine. This has resulted in the rich or peak vs lean of peak debates. But since I was told how to avoid pinging or early detonation, I avoid it and have never heard it. My question for you is… Would this be obvious to me or do I need to be paying attention to notice it? And would bucking the starter be obvious to me? I have not noticed any rapid reversal in the radiator fan or odd sounds when it’s trying to start and I get the random cylinder firing before it completely starts. Generally, yes, you will notice a different sound to your engine running. It isn't typically loud by any means, more like a new noise that shows up and goes away with throttle or load. Since airplanes cover a lot of higher ranges of altitudes which affects the fuel mixture needs changing and adjustments may be needed. Fuel mixture can change greatly when changing from different altitudes, to the point the engine is overly lean or overly rich (IE outside fuel butter zone of 14.7 parts air to 1 part of fuel). Running excessive overly lean or rich definitely can cause severe damage to the engine. Which is why it was stressed to not operate that way. Your air density, temp, humidity all play a part in how much air to fuel gets mixed in a carb. Cars, generally you will not typically have large altitude changes that will affect the mix enough so basically choose the middle spot as best as possible when the engine RPM peaks as you adjust the mixture screw and call it a day. Your initial engine timing can affect pinging or pre-ignition under throttle or load or high RPM, but keep in mind low compression engines (IE 7:1 or less) you may never here the pinging. As you get into higher compression engines (8:1 and up) the pinging can become much more noticeable and pronounced. Your distributor should have two different spark advance mechanisms. There should be a mechanical advance which hidden and is located under the moving plate under the points. The second is the vacuum pod that is connected to your carb port, which advances the plate the points are on as more vacuum gets generated with the opening of the throttle plate. I should note: not all engines have both and some early engines like a model T do not have automatic spark advance. The mechanical advance uses a pair of weights (IE flyweights) which are held in by springs at low RPM, they move out at higher RPM, they move the surface the breaker points rubbing block rides which pushes open the points. Both types are employed when it isn't possible to get enough advance with one or it wasn't possible to get a consistent advance curve for the engine. Pre-detonation is a bit complicated in the fact that you have a lot of variables that can cause it. Sort of the reason why it is recommended to get the initial timing set and then make any adjustments to the fuel mixture. As far as starter goes, yeah, that too should be noticeable, starter will labor harder in pulses which will be in sync with each plug firing (6 cylinder would have 6 pulses) than it did before you changed timing, sometimes enough to stall the starter or see the engine try to turn backwards after letting off the starter.. But, depending on your engines condition it is slightly possible that you might not notice much until it just stops the starter from turning. That is sort of why it is a good idea to start by following the manufacturers published timing specs and then add a degree or two of timing but not much more. That can be done by ear like you have done, or as I mentioned a timing light. Both ways can get you a running engine, but if you want to really push the limits, a timing light does help to dial it in without going over the cliffs edge so to speak because you now exactly how many degrees you are at at any given RPM you choose to check. The timing light method depends on your engine having timing marks and a pointer on the front of the engine. No timing marks or pointer would require one to add them which can be done but requires having additional tools on hand and in the case of this motor not sure if is going to net any better results. Hope that helps, didn't mean to write a book 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 2 hours ago, InsideTrader said: I am a pilot and my plane is the only other carbureted engine I own. They cover pinging and detonation in flight school because in a plane you have mixture control in the cockpit and can lean yourself out too much and destroy your engine. This has resulted in the rich or peak vs lean of peak debates. But since I was told how to avoid pinging or early detonation, I avoid it and have never heard it. My question for you is… Would this be obvious to me or do I need to be paying attention to notice it? And would bucking the starter be obvious to me? I have not noticed any rapid reversal in the radiator fan or odd sounds when it’s trying to start and I get the random cylinder firing before it completely starts. Carburetor mixture adjustment is the mixture control at idle. Screw in is richer, screw out is leaner. Slowly turn in until engine slows or blubbers, then back it out 1/2 to 3/4 turn until you get the best vacuum reading. Must be done with engine warmed up and choke off. There is no mixture control for medium and high speed, those jets are fixed. Except for the choke which richens the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 @Grimy I took your advice and retarded the timing .5” Unfortunately I had my carb problems and I swapped my battery cable so the timing wasn’t the only variable I changed but it is running and starting so much better now. The drivetrain is geared sooooo low that it is really hard for me to tell if the engine has more power but it either does or there is a placebo effect going on because I think it sounds better. Hopefully sounds better means runs better. No hint of any odd ping or detonation sounds at all. The muffler on it doesn’t do a whole lot of muffling so hopefully I’d hear it if it were there. @Rusty_OToole I had the carb so messed up that I couldn’t get it started. So I did your screw it in and the back it out whatever you told me and it was enough to get it running. Then I adjusted it to max vacuum and it seemed to run pretty well like that. Both at idle and under load. So I don’t know if the timing and carb are perfect or not but it’s definitely better than it was when I started messing with it. I tried dropping the idle speed but without a tach I don’t know where 400 is. It doesn’t seem to love a low idle though. So I kind of just set it to as low as my ear thought it sounded like it was ok with it. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all of your help and the help of all the other guys that gave me advice on these topics. If you’ll put up with me for one more question…. Is this my fuel filter and how do I replace it and what do I replace it with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) More likely to be the mechanical fuel pump. NAPA, O'Reilly or equal likely to have. Will be worth getting a manual on the engine. Look for any 1950's Dodge-Plymouth-DeSoto 6 cylinder car-pickup. May not 100% but a good guide to your engine. They did not change much 1930's to 1960's Australian site for information only https://www.autosurplus.com.au/mechanical-fuel-pump-for-dodge-3.6-3.8-3.9-6-cylin Edited March 26 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepher Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Appears to be a fuel pump pike this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kramaton Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 That's the fuel pump. It probably supplies enough gas if your vehicle runs. Probably no need to change it. You might not have a filter. You can add an inline filter if you want. Probably would be a good idea. Put it between the fuel pump and the carb. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsideTrader Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 1 hour ago, kramaton said: That's the fuel pump. It probably supplies enough gas if your vehicle runs. Probably no need to change it. You might not have a filter. You can add an inline filter if you want. Probably would be a good idea. Put it between the fuel pump and the carb. I have an electric fuel pump that someone added. Does that mean I have two or should I bypass the mechanical? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zepher Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 Sounds like you do have two fuel pumps. Some antique car owners run an electric pump just to prime the carb if the car has been sitting for awhile. Once the fuel bowl is primed they shut off the electric pump and run off the mechanical pump. My Pierce Arrow is setup that way. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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