Chrysler 230 Flathead Rebuild and Oil

[InsideTrader]

I have a vehicle running a 1951-1952 Chrysler 230.  I have only owned it for a few months but I have become fond of it.  It probably needs to be rebuild and I know it has already been rebuilt at least once already.  My first question is...  If I turns out it does need to be rebuilt, are there rebuild kits and can rebuild specs be obtained for it.  I am not having great luck finding information online about that engine.  Second question...  What oil should I be running in it?

I appreciate any help.

[TTR]

Before you do anything else, including posting or reading anything regarding regarding rebuild kits or oils, etc, I would highly recommend determining whether or not your engine really need a rebuild. 
The next would be finding a competent machine and/or rebuilding shop experienced with engines of that era and discuss the process they would recommend or prefer, including sourcing necessary parts and/or who’s going to do the disassembly & reassembly work + installation, start-up & break-in procedures, etc.

Such shop will have specifications or know how to obtain them for your engine.

 

Edited March 13 by TTR (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

26 minutes ago, TTR said:

Before you do anything else, including posting or reading anything regarding regarding rebuild kits or oils, etc, I would highly recommend determining whether or not your engine really need a rebuild. 
The next would be finding a competent machine and/or rebuilding shop experienced with engines of that era and discuss the process they would recommend or prefer, including sourcing necessary parts and/or who’s going to do the disassembly & reassembly work + installation, start-up & break-in procedures, etc.

Such shop will have specifications or know how to obtain them for your engine.

 

I don't disagree with that but I would still like to go ahead and do an oil change.  I would love to know what kind and how much oil it uses.

[Bloo]

Chryslers often recommended slightly heavier oil than everybody else if I recall correctly. For most normal outside temepratures, if the manual says 20W, SAE20, or 20W20, I'd try 10W30. If it says SAE30, I'd try 15W40. If it says 20W40, I'd try 20W50. Or, you could just do what it says if it is a type of oil you can still buy easliy. My guess is 15W40 or 20W50 if it is not real cold outside. Oil types for these old cars is a hotly debated topic, and you will get a bunch of differing opinions. Everybody's got one. Some will tell you to use Non-Detergent oil. I don't recommend that.

 

Capacity depends on what it is in. I suspect 5 quarts for a car and 6 for a truck, but you would be well advised to post what the vehicle is, whether you think the engine is the original one or not, and whether it has an oil filter. All these things affect oil capacity, and there are some outliers. Plymouths with Hy-Drive can take more than double the normal amount of oil for instance.

 

Maybe we can get @Rusty_OToole in this thread. If what he says contradicts me, listen to him instead. 👍

 

[TTR]

58 minutes ago, InsideTrader said:

I don't disagree with that but I would still like to go ahead and do an oil change.  I would love to know what kind and how much oil it uses.

Factory owners or service manual is likely to give you the most accurate recommendation, but those are/were usually based on engine being new or used, but in good operating condition. There are other, non-OEM repair/service manuals, like "Motor's Auto Repair Manual" which can be obtained with various vintage's/year's and they usually cover 5-10 year span of most major brand American manufacturers, let say 1954 "M.A.R.M" covers everything from 1940 to 1954 Or 1959 edition cover from 1952 to 1959, etc.

 

 

Edited March 13 by TTR (see edit history)

[TTR]

 

 

17 minutes ago, Bloo said:

... Oil types for these old cars is a hotly debated topic, and you will get a bunch of differing opinions. 

 

This ^^ is exactly why I suggested to stay clear of asking these types of questions here or any other similar forum.

 

Edited March 13 by TTR (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

Chryslers often recommended slightly heavier oil than everybody else if I recall correctly. For most normal outside temepratures, if the manual says 20W, SAE20, or 20W20, I'd try 10W30. If it says SAE30, I'd try 15W40. If it says 20W40, I'd try 20W50. Or, you could just do what it says if it is a type of oil you can still buy easliy. My guess is 15W40 or 20W50 if it is not real cold outside. Oil types for these old cars is a hotly debated topic, and you will get a bunch of differing opinions. Everybody's got one. Some will tell you to use Non-Detergent oil. I don't recommend that.

 

Capacity depends on what it is in. I suspect 5 quarts for a car and 6 for a truck, but you would be well advised to post what the vehicle is, whether you think the engine is the original one or not, and whether it has an oil filter. All these things affect oil capacity, and there are some outliers. Plymouths with Hy-Drive can take more than double the normal amount of oil for instance.

 

Maybe we can get @Rusty_OToole in this thread. If what he says contradicts me, listen to him instead. 👍

 

The vehicle is a 1961 Northwestern Motor Co. JG-40-FK.  It is an aircraft tug used by the air force to pull aircraft around the Tulsa  Oklahoma air guard base until it was surplussed to a local company.  The company went out of business last year and they put it in the scrap pile.  A local life flight pilot thought it would be a shame for it to be destroyed so he took it and got it running.  He didn’t have a use for it or a place to store it so it became mine.  I know nothing about it other than the engine is a D42 and it has no oil filter.  I do believe it to be the original engine but I am not sure about that.  I cannot find any information on the vehicle online.  I have never even seen a picture of one in the original configuration.  I’ve pretty much given up hope on finding a manual of any kind for it.  An engine manual would be my best hope at this point.  My hope is to be able to get enough info on the engine to at least do things like use the proper oil to give it the best chance of staying out of a scrap pile.  I avoided the specifics on the vehicle for fear that would run a foul of the forum rules.  I do think this forum is my best chance of finding info on the engine though.  So hopefully I don’t get booted.  

[InsideTrader]

1 hour ago, TTR said:

Factory owners or service manual is likely to give you the most accurate recommendation, but those are/were usually based on engine being new or used, but in good operating condition. There are other, non-OEM repair/service manuals, like "Motor's Auto Repair Manual" which can be obtained with various vintage's/year's and they usually cover 5-10 year span of most major brand American manufacturers, let say 1954 "M.A.R.M" covers everything from 1940 to 1954 Or 1959 edition cover from 1952 to 1959, etc.

 

 

Can you get manuals for just the engine specifically?  Is that a thing?

[Bloo]

I think D42 implies 1952 Dodge.

[InsideTrader]

2 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I think D42 implies 1952 Dodge.

Google says a D42 could be a 1951 or 1952.

[Rusty_OToole]

What is oil pressure like? Should be 30PSI when revved up to 1500 - 2000 RPM. Maybe 10 or 15 at idle. If pressure is decent I would use a good name brand 10W30. By name brand I mean Esso, Shell, Valvoline, etc.

 

With no oil filter you are supposed to change oil every 2000 miles. I don't know how many hours that would be. It is possible to add a filter but probably not worth the bother.

 

If oil pressure is on the low side I would try 15W40. Should be no need to go heavier.

 

YES they did recommend single weight oil but that was before multigrade oils became available. Chances are it has never used anything but multigrade, detergent oil especially since being rebuilt.

Edited March 14 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[TTR]

Sounds like the engine could be internally an "Industrial" spec, not necessarily same as "Automotive" use, per se, and might not even be easily adaptable for latter.

Possibly different cam, crank, compression, rotation, timing drive, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

These engines are VERY common, millions were made for Plymouth and Dodge cars, Dodge trucks, industrial and marine engines from 1937 to 1972.

 

Most parts can be had from your local NAPA or other good auto parts store. Don't bother the shiny new store with the kid with purple hair behind the counter. Look for a dusty old store where the farmers shop with a gray haired or bald headed guy in charge.

 

A good source of motor parts is Vintage Power Wagons in Iowa. They have parts by the dump truck load at good prices. Power Wagons (military Dodge 4 wheel drive) used the same motor for years. Last I looked $75 a set of 6 NOS pistons, how good do you want it?

[ABear]

17 minutes ago, InsideTrader said:

The vehicle is a 1961 Northwestern Motor Co. JG-40-FK.  It is an aircraft tug used by the air force to pull aircraft around the Tulsa  Oklahoma air guard base until it was surplussed to a local company.  The company went out of business last year and they put it in the scrap pile.  A local life flight pilot thought it would be a shame for it to be destroyed so he took it and got it running.  He didn’t have a use for it or a place to store it so it became mine.  I know nothing about it other than the engine is a D42 and it has no oil filter.  I do believe it to be the original engine but I am not sure about that.  I cannot find any information on the vehicle online.  I have never even seen a picture of one in the original configuration.  I’ve pretty much given up hope on finding a manual of any kind for it.  An engine manual would be my best hope at this point.  My hope is to be able to get enough info on the engine to at least do things like use the proper oil to give it the best chance of staying out of a scrap pile.  I avoided the specifics on the vehicle for fear that would run a foul of the forum rules.  I do think this forum is my best chance of finding info on the engine though.  So hopefully I don’t get booted.  

I suspect it could be a Chrysler INDUSTRIAL engine which was marketed to fork lift manufacturers and other types of power units.

 

Found a mention of the same use as yours on a different forum https://p15-d24.com/topic/31312-1950s-chrysler-industrial/

[Rusty_OToole]

On the question of, does it need to be rebuilt? Probably not, but if you want to be sure answer these questions. What is the oil pressure? What is the compression?

Oil pressure should be 30PSI at 30MPH or the equivalent. 10 or 15 at idle.

Compression around 100 ideally. But if it is the same on all cylinders, within 10 pounds, you are good to go. Industrial engines often were built with low compression to run on tractor gas. At best flatheads are limited to compression ratios of 6:1 to 7.5:1 because of the combustion chamber shape.

 

If compression is good and oil pressure good, you should be good to go. If compression is low try squirting some oil in the cylinder with an oil can. If compression comes up, it's rings. If not it's a burnt valve or, outside chance, a broken piston. If you do have a bad valve it is easy to fix without taking out the motor. You can grind in the seat, install a new valve just by removing the head and the valve cover.

 

From the sound of it, it does not matter much how it runs as long as it runs as you will not be using it hard anyway. It should not be hard to get it running and tune it up. Maybe you can find an old retired mechanic who is familiar with these engines to tune it up for you.

[InsideTrader]

10 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

What is oil pressure like? Should be 30PSI when revved up to 1500 - 2000 RPM. Maybe 10 or 15 at idle. If pressure is decent I would use a good name brand 10W30. By name brand I mean Esso, Shell, Valvoline, etc.

 

With no oil filter you are supposed to change oil every 1000 miles. I don't know how many hours that would be. It is possible to add a filter but probably not worth the bother.

 

If oil pressure is on the low side I would try 15W40. Should be no need to go heavier.

 

YES they did recommend single weight oil but that was before multigrade oils became available. Chances are it has never used anything but multigrade, detergent oil especially since being rebuilt.

When the engine is cold those are the correct oil pressure numbers my 70 year old gauge is giving me.  It drops by about 5 psi when the oil gets hot.  I don’t have a tach so I’m not sure what my RPMs are at any given pressure.

 

I don’t have an odometer either.  Just an hour meter.  But I change oil more often than recommended in pretty much everything I own.  There is no way this will get to 1000 mines before I change it.  It only goes 15 miles per hour.  

 

I had someone recommend rotella t4 or t5.  I use it a lot for diesels but never in gasoline engines.  Mobile 1 is usually my go to for gasoline.  And I would much rather go by your recommendation based on modern oils than what Chrysler was recommending 70 years ago.  If there is a better way of doing it today, I’ll do it that way.

[Rusty_OToole]

Serial number stamped on a raised pad on the left front of the block, high up near the head, behind the generator. If it is an industrial engine may have a plate rivetted to the block on the right side, in the middle, low down near the pan rail.

 

It sounds like your industrial engine was replaced by a Dodge car engine of the same type. This could mean the original was swapped out for a factory rebuilt or just a junkyard engine.

[InsideTrader]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

On the question of, does it need to be rebuilt? Probably not, but if you want to be sure answer these questions. What is the oil pressure? What is the compression?

Oil pressure should be 30PSI at 30MPH or the equivalent. 10 or 15 at idle.

Compression around 100 ideally. But if it is the same on all cylinders, within 10 pounds, you are good to go. Industrial engines often were built with low compression to run on tractor gas. At best flatheads are limited to compression ratios of 6:1 to 7.5:1 because of the combustion chamber shape.

 

If compression is good and oil pressure good, you should be good to go. If compression is low try squirting some oil in the cylinder with an oil can. If compression comes up, it's rings. If not it's a burnt valve or, outside chance, a broken piston. If you do have a bad valve it is easy to fix without taking out the motor. You can grind in the seat, install a new valve just by removing the head and the valve cover.

 

From the sound of it, it does not matter much how it runs as long as it runs as you will not be using it hard anyway. It should not be hard to get it running and tune it up. Maybe you can find an old retired mechanic who is familiar with these engines to tune it up for you.

I plan to compression test it and I do think oil pressure is close to normal based on what I’ve read.  I only suspect it to need a rebuild because I seem to have a lot of blow by out of the breather tube.  But it does have a large breather tube compared to what I’m used to so maybe old engines just have a lot of pressure in the crank case to vent.  I don’t really know.  And I really appreciate the numbers you gave for the compression test.  

[InsideTrader]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Serial number stamped on a raised pad on the left front of the block, high up near the head, behind the generator. If it is an industrial engine may have a plate rivetted to the block on the right side, in the middle, low down near the pan rail.

 

It sounds like your industrial engine was replaced by a Dodge car engine of the same type. This could mean the original was swapped out for a factory rebuilt or just a junkyard engine.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Nothing wrong with synthetic but it is wasteful and unnecessary especially when you change it so frequently. Also, synthetic can leak out thru gaskets and seals that are perfectly ok with conventional oil. As I said I would use plain ol 10W30 in fact, I would probably use Walmart house brand and save a little money.

 

It sounds like a normal, old engine with normal wear. If it starts, runs and drives OK I would not worry about it. I would not even buy new spark plugs, just clean and adjust spark plugs and points, check air filter, change oil and let it go at that. Those old Dodges will run forever in an advanced state of wear. They just get harder to start, low on power and burn more gas and oil.

 

I presume you are keeping it as a curiosity. If you plan on dragging B29s around all day that is a different story lol.

[Rusty_OToole]

As you know, what you have is a 1951 or 1952 Dodge car engine. 230 Cu In and (I think) 103HP? I expect when built in 1961 it had a Chrysler industrial engine that was swapped out for a used Dodge at some point.

BoreXstroke/cu in/compression/HP/Torque/Oil press/Spark plug/Plug gap/Points gap/Dwell/Firing order/Timing/Ground volts

3 1/4 x 4 5/8

230.2

7.00

103 @ 3600

190 @ 1200

45

AR-8

.035

.020

39

153624

TDC

+6

Edited March 13 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

45 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Nothing wrong with synthetic but it is wasteful and unnecessary especially when you change it so frequently. Also, synthetic can leak out thru gaskets and seals that are perfectly ok with conventional oil. As I said I would use plain ol 10W30 in fact, I would probably use Walmart house brand and save a little money.

 

It sounds like a normal, old engine with normal wear. If it starts, runs and drives OK I would not worry about it. I would not even buy new spark plugs, just clean and adjust spark plugs and points, check air filter, change oil and let it go at that. Those old Dodges will run forever in an advanced state of wear. They just get harder to start, low on power and burn more gas and oil.

 

I presume you are keeping it as a curiosity. If you plan on dragging B29s around all day that is a different story lol.

Well you have given me some mental peace about it.  I really appreciate it.

 

It starts ok right now that the weather has warmed up and I have figured out the right combination of throttle pumps and choke use.  I think it could use a carb and/or timing adjustment but I’m not sure.  I have a call into a mechanic in my neighborhood I see wrenching on old cars.

 

I assure you, the first B-29 I get I will be towing it.    Yes it’s a curiosity.  I like old and unusual vehicles and this is both.  I have a plane at a local airport and I have considered rigging up a tow bar for it to pull my plane.  But as of now it lives at my house.  I have three 4 year old daughters and they love to ride it around the neighborhood.  So pretty much every evening since the weather has been nice it does a mile or two around the surrounding neighborhoods.  The wife refuses to join us though because she doesn’t “want to look like a dork.”  

 

I cannot see all of the engine specs you posted about it.  What is your best guess for oil capacity?  That should get me close and then hopefully the dip stick will get me close enough.

[Grimy]

15 minutes ago, InsideTrader said:

What is your best guess for oil capacity?

5 qts for sure, then check dipstick.  Someone MAY have used the tug's oil pan when they installed the Dodge engine, perhaps for clearance reasons.  If so, and if the pans are different, let's hope they used the tug engine's dipstick.

[InsideTrader]

28 minutes ago, Grimy said:

5 qts for sure, then check dipstick.  Someone MAY have used the tug's oil pan when they installed the Dodge engine, perhaps for clearance reasons.  If so, and if the pans are different, let's hope they used the tug engine's dipstick.

I really appreciate you.  I will do 5 and check with the dipstick.  I’ll watch the oil pressure carefully.

[kramaton]

If the engine runs without any audible knocking sounds and it doesn't smoke out the exhaust I would just run it and enjoy it.  When you see it smoking real bad or start hearing knocking noise then it time for an overhaul. 

[Rusty_OToole]

Engine Specs- 1951 - 52 Dodge D42

 

Bore X stroke - 3 1/4 X 4 5/8

Displacement - 230.2 cu in

Compression Ratio - 7.00:1

Horsepower - 103@3600RPM

Torque - 190@1200RPM

Oil Pressure - 45PSI

Spark Plug - AR-8

Spark Plug Gap - .035

Points Gap - .020

Dwell - 39 degrees

Firing Order - 153624

Timing - TDC

Battery - 6 volt, positive ground (this is for a 1951. Yours is probably 12v negative ground)

 

Hope this information comes handy.

2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

3 1/4 x 4 5/8 230.2 7.00 103 @ 3600 190 @ 1200 45 AR-8 .035 .020 39 153624 TDC +6

 

[InsideTrader]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Engine Specs- 1951 - 52 Dodge D42

 

Bore X stroke - 3 1/4 X 4 5/8

Displacement - 230.2 cu in

Compression Ratio - 7.00:1

Horsepower - 103@3600RPM

Torque - 190@1200RPM

Oil Pressure - 45PSI

Spark Plug - AR-8

Spark Plug Gap - .035

Points Gap - .020

Dwell - 39 degrees

Firing Order - 153624

Timing - TDC

Battery - 6 volt, positive ground (this is for a 1951. Yours is probably 12v negative ground)

 

Hope this information comes handy.

 

You are awesome sir!  I make a file for all of the vehicles I have with things like manuals and reference guides and whatever I think will be handy.  So far, this is the only thing that will be in this file.

[Rusty_OToole]

Daddy and 4 year old triplets riding around the neighborhood on an airport tug, that is something you don't see every day, except on your street. You have an unusual hobby there. Hope you and the girls enjoy it for many years.

[InsideTrader]

13 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Daddy and 4 year old triplets riding around the neighborhood on an airport tug, that is something you don't see every day, except on your street. You have an unusual hobby there. Hope you and the girls enjoy it for many years.

Thank you sir.  I plan to.  At least until they are teenagers and don’t think it’s cool anymore.  

[Rusty_OToole]

Ha ha I can see the 4th of July parade with your tug all painted up nice and decorated with bunting, the girls in little Air Force uniforms saluting the crowds.

[Harold]

You may want to double-check the electrical components for voltage configuration.  A '51 Dodge came from the factory with a six-volt positive ground electrical system.  The airport tug was probably 12 volts or possibly 24V.  If 6V, the generator and starter tags have a red background, and 12V had green tags. I don't know what color 24V tags were.

[1939_Buick]

Google search for "Northwestern Motor Co. JG-40-FK"  brings up a photos of the beast.  I like it !

https://www.antiquetractorsforum.com/threads/1961-northwestern-motor-co-jg-40-fk-pictures.24937/

 

 

Edited March 14 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

1 hour ago, 1939_Buick said:

Google search for "Northwestern Motor Co. JG-40-FK"  brings up a photos of the beast.  I like it !

https://www.antiquetractorsforum.com/threads/1961-northwestern-motor-co-jg-40-fk-pictures.24937/

 

 

Yeah that’s mine.  It’s the only one I’ve ever seen.    And thank you.  I like it too.  It’s the least practical vehicle I own but I think it’s kind of cool and my kids love riding around on it.

Edited March 14 by InsideTrader (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

2 hours ago, Harold said:

You may want to double-check the electrical components for voltage configuration.  A '51 Dodge came from the factory with a six-volt positive ground electrical system.  The airport tug was probably 12 volts or possibly 24V.  If 6V, the generator and starter tags have a red background, and 12V had green tags. I don't know what color 24V tags were.

I will look into that.  I know the battery currently in it is a 12 volt lawnmower battery from Walmart.  But it seems to be getting the job done just fine.

[Rusty_OToole]

I don't like the look of that rubber hose full of gasoline leaning against the red hot exhaust manifold!. Should be a steel line routed away from the manifold.

[InsideTrader]

7 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I don't like the look of that rubber hose full of gasoline leaning against the red hot exhaust manifold!. Should be a steel line routed away from the manifold.

I’ll go double check how close it is to that manifold.  It does have steel line running from the tan, but at some point in its history an electric fuel pump was installed and that orange fuel line was installed between it and the carb.  One of the things I kind of like about it is that the second owner of it after it was surplussed from the airforce was an Beechcraft aircraft dealer.  So all repairs done to it over the years seem to be from the parts warehouse of that company.  At some point the hour meter got replaced by a beechcraft hour meter.  It no longer has a key.  They ignition is an aircraft ignition now.  That orange fuel line is the same fuel like on my plane.  Ect.  Normally aviation parts are ridiculously expensive and no one in their right mind would put them on a tug.  But I guess if you are a dealer and have a supply of them it becomes the cheapest way to do it.  It’s just something that adds to the coolness of it to me.

I will double check that spacing between the line and the manifold though.  You make a good point.  Although I don’t see that like ever having an issue with a fire.  When I was flight training I lost my first plane to a ground fire.  It burned hot enough that the aluminum from the engine melted into a puddle on the ground.  It was literally dripping aluminum.  But the fuel lines were not damaged at all.  It was amazing how much heat they can take.  My main concern with the tug would be gas sitting in that line getting hot once it’s shut down.  I’ll consider rerouting that.

[InsideTrader]

Here is the spacing on that fuel line.  I’m not really sure what proper is.

There are several things I question on this engine.  The carb is not original but I don’t know if it’s the right carb for it or not.  There is a black rubber tube going from the carb to the distributor.  I don’t know what that’s about.  It has some sort of valve looking thing between the exhaust and intake manifold under the carb.  There is a wobble in the crank pulley that powers the fan belt.  I cannot imagine the crank is bent because I wouldn’t think it would run if so but maybe I’m wrong.

[1939_Buick]

That orange fuel hose looks far too close.  Like above metal would be safer.

The tube carb to distributor is vacuum advance for the carb.   Carb looks brand new.

If it runs all is good.

[dalef62]

Is that orange fuel hose just a covering over top of a steel line?  The fittings look a little strange.

[Bloo]

More than a little strange. I was guessing Taylor Fire Sleeve or something similar.