Speed camera legislation Virginia

[rocketraider]

This is one I hope is soundly defeated.

 

https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?241+sum+HB20

 

They're currently allowed in school and construction zones, which I have no issue with. 

 

Given the abuse some states have perpetrated with red-light cameras, and knowing that every local government is going for every scrap of revenue they can legally grab, this is horrifically bad legislation. Safety and speed enforcement is one thing, but opening the door for abuse is something else entirely.

[TAKerry]

We have them in MD, as far as I know they can be anywhere. My small town was going to put some in. I do not condone speeding or reckless driving but these are nothing more than a cash grab for the owner of the speed camera company. The cameras are run by an independent contractor and proceeds are split with the municipality. Like a lot of things, has nothing to do with safety, all about the money!!

[joe_padavano]

The ones in Montgomery County are the worst.

[TAKerry]

I was working in Bmore remodeling a restaurant. All the work had to be done after hours. We started around 8pm and worked until 4 or 5 am. Its an hour drive from my door. A lot of times driving through the city at 4 am I would be the only car on the road. My brother that ran the office got tired of paying my speeding tickets! Seems I would trip the camera about twice a week. The funny thing was that doing about 60mph there were 3 pics. One at a distance, one closer up and a zoom in of the tag. All perfectly clear!! You see surveillance footage of a robbery on tv with the crook walking in front of the camera and you cant make out any features at all!!

[rocketraider]

HB20 was continued to the 2025 session. Not quite as good as going away completely but better than having it go to the full Legislature for vote.

 

Some truly mean-spirited legislation has been proposed in Virginia this session. It's what happens when people with agendas or axes to grind get themselves elected.

[vintage1]

Several years ago they set up these speed cameras on 285 which is perimeter highway that goes around Atlanta. The problem was in Georgia a traffic ticket is issued to the driver not the vehicle. With these cameras the ticket was issued to the registered owner of the vehicle. People would go to court and say they were not driving the car, a family member might have been driving it or a friend etc... The court had to throw the ticket out. These cameras only lasted a few months after no money being made. The same thing happened when they started using red light cameras, almost all cases thrown out. 

 

[kgreen]

Heard a story some time ago where some high schoolers photocopied an image of a teachers tag, placed it over their tag and proceeded around town running red lights and tolls.  

[rocketraider]

Boy. I can't think of any teacher (anyone else for that matter) I disliked that much!😄 I can think of a couple of Vajenya legislators who could benefit from being the object of such a prank though, for introducing stupid, expensive and mean-spirited legislation! Unfortunately I don't know any devious high school kids in Northern Virginia...

 

Adds another layer that the people who come up with this stuff never think about when it's implemented.

 

13 hours ago, vintage1 said:

Several years ago they set up these speed cameras on 285 which is perimeter highway that goes around Atlanta... These cameras only lasted a few months after no money being made.

Follow the money.😏 Daresay the vast majority of legislation proposed has revenue as the ultimate goal, and revenge as a lesser goal.

[MotiveLensPhoto]

Chicago is/was rife with both speed and red light cameras. And you're right, they're entirely a revenue stream. At least in Chicago, you have to pay a court appearance request to fight the ticket, win or lose. Plus, the fine. It's way easier to pay it, assuming you can afford it.

[60FlatTop]

Between 10 and 15 years ago a speed camera system was installed on a stretch of road adjacent to a large school. The road was 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile long and a known speed trap. Once the camera system came into play tickets came in the mail to many people. The grapevine spread to news and viewed it as a sneaky, Big Brother approach. It so enraged the locals that they were all forewarned and entered the area with great caution.

Soon the flow of mailed ticket slow dramatically. The comptroller calculated a loss of nearly $1,000,000 annually in county revenue due to the camera system. The cameras were removed, income restored, and cars are still ticketed. A one on one encounter with the violation appears to be more acceptable.

[Larry Schramm]

It is all about the money! If you want to talk about safety, safety is about #879 on the list of 1,000 items with money being #1. 

[Su8overdrive]

Speed traps go back 110 years.  Let's beat this EZ money grab.  Outrageous.  As several above explain, this stunt is principally about enriching a cabal.  

Edited Monday at 10:43 PM by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

dont speed , pretty simple

[Su8overdrive]

Ted, few of us here gathered drive like punks.  That's not the point.  What Rocketraider above describes is a speed trap on steroids, more about a greedy cabal using safety, in this case, as excuse for profiteering.

 

 Even with 80+ year-old cars capable of an honest 100 mph, cruising with no mechanical trauma at 65-70+,   many of like to burble backroads at 40-45 and tire of breeders impatient to get to Starbucks or the mall in their disposable transportation modules crowding, tailgating us.  Like to drive my stick regular car in relaxed fashion, too, these days.  So "don't speed" is first nature.   But sometimes clipping along in light traffic or off hours only to be ticket fodder is a real drag.

Edited Tuesday at 09:07 PM by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

MD is loaded with these cameras.  Personally I believe they are necessary. People drive like lunatics in this state. A year ago 6 highway workers were killed by a speeder in the work zone.  She was driving in excess of 85 mph.  Fines need to be stiffer than they are IMO. Adding red light cameras are ok in IMO. 

[avgwarhawk]

On 4/21/2024 at 9:15 AM, Larry Schramm said:

It is all about the money! If you want to talk about safety, safety is about #879 on the list of 1,000 items with money being #1. 

Aren't all tickets issued about money? Does it matter if it handwritten by Officer Speed or mechanically printed and mailed to ones home?  The only unfair practice that was eventually changed was issuing tickets in work zones during non working hours.  

Edited Tuesday at 11:28 AM by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

On 2/11/2024 at 2:44 PM, MotiveLensPhoto said:

Chicago is/was rife with both speed and red light cameras. And you're right, they're entirely a revenue stream. At least in Chicago, you have to pay a court appearance request to fight the ticket, win or lose. Plus, the fine. It's way easier to pay it, assuming you can afford it.

What is a better  punishment for running a red light or excessive speed?  When peoples wallets are affected they tend to change their habits. 

Edited Tuesday at 11:31 AM by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[MotiveLensPhoto]

4 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

What is a better  punishment for running a red light or excessive speed?  When peoples wallets are affected they tend to change their habits. 

If it's cheaper to plead guilty by mail (whether you are or not) than it is to argue your position in court, then it's a money grab, not a fair application of the law. The fees to appear are onerous and are collected up front, regardless of the outcome.

[Su8overdrive]

H o w e v e r,  AVG makes a good point.  People  d o  drive like lunatics,  disconnected, insulated from reality,  cocooned in disposable transportation modules, abetted by ads promising 0 to 60 in a few seconds, but little about 60 to 0 in one second, or the other motorists, bicyclists, pedestrians threatened, maimed, killed by their insularity. 

 

What MotiveLens, i and others here object to is the unfair application of the law, and that some of these set ups really are just today's version of yesteryear's speed traps.

 

From "Courtesy + Skill = Safety," pages 4-5 of the owner's manual for the 1940 Packard I long ago owned.    The second paragraph should be drummed into the ADD noggins of those taking a driver's test today:

 

"Undoubtedly, there are many drivers who need improvement.  In most cases, fortunately driving skill can be cultivated if there is any desire to become proficient.  Deliberate indifference is an unfortunate attitude.  Driving can be and is a lot of fun for those who can do it well.   Think of driving as a game --such as golf or tennis -- and approach it with the same enthusiasm and expectancy.  The ability to handle a motor car adroitly will give as much pleasure as does ability in any other sport."

 

      Packard boldfaced "is" in the above.  Note the civilized Mid-Atlantic tone in the above.     Packard advertised not just in Colliers, Newsweek, Fortune, but also in the New Yorker, Literary Digest, and National Geographic.

 

     In my callow youth,  I sold sport cars (Carrol Shelby corrected people, insisting sport was singular and he would know);   light,  nimble, efficient,  not "sport utility vehicles" or "crossovers" (my Miata-driving gal thinks the latter looking like wheeled hamsters in heat).  One of the mechanics on break would relax in the showroom and shoot the breeze.  We'll call him Mario, because that was his name.  In the 1950s, Mario was a driving instructor in Italy and France.  Mario told us a question from the Italian driving test:

 

   "There's only one correct answer.  You're driving down a narrow, winding, two-lane city street with four- and five-story buildings on either side.  Suddenly, you notice a woman about to jump from a fourth-floor window onto the path of your car.  What do you do next?"

 

    "Answer: What are you doing with your eyes off the road?"

 

    In today's whiny, buck-passing, blame-passing, litigious society, people would sue, citing trickery, were we to make getting a license more difficult than answering a few commonsense questions and managing to parallel park.  They'd cry "That's not fair!"

 

     But life, and death, aren't fair.  Making everything fair for everyone dumbs down our entire country.  We lose our national edge.  We become a land of mindless babies and a million more accidents waiting to happen.

 

     Pardon the ramble.  Overpopulation's traffic prevents enjoyment of a vintage car anytime other than before 9am weekends.

 

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:22 AM by Su8overdrive (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

6 hours ago, MotiveLensPhoto said:

If it's cheaper to plead guilty by mail (whether you are or not) than it is to argue your position in court, then it's a money grab, not a fair application of the law. The fees to appear are onerous and are collected up front, regardless of the outcome.

What is a fair application of the law? Better yet, drive the speed limit. 

[avgwarhawk]

"Pardon the ramble.  Overpopulation's traffic prevents enjoyment of a vintage car anytime other than before 9am weekends."

 

Truth!   After lunchtime everyone is up your tailpipe and has a look on their face that says, "You should not be on my road today."

[3macboys]

I'll put this out there at the risk of ridicule of others - I was the guy for the better part of 30 years doing those traffic stops and giving out the tickets and while I fully believe in safe driving, traffic enforcement is not a black and white issue that cameras turn it into.  I would estimate that less than 1/3 of the motorists that I stopped ever got tickets.  My point was always the interaction with the driver.  I recognized the potential financial impact on them, both from the cost of the ticket but also the potential impact on their insurance cost.   A few years before I retired ( I worked for a local municipality) I was at a meeting with area politicians and the commander of the local OPP detachment (think State Trooper) and we both stated that if they were to implement speed cameras in our area that they should not be set below the speed that officers would actually issue a ticket for it to be accepted by the public - in Ontario that is generally about 15 kph or 10 mph over the posted limited.  Not every officer is the same but even in our world we considered anything lower as offside.  At the end of the day my opinion was that it was a human making the error and when you remove the human interaction at the start of the process it is unfair and nothing but a money grab and not about safety.   So far in my area no cameras and I would not support them.

[Su8overdrive]

Far from ridicule from most of us, 3macboys, certainly not from me.  You, sir, are yet another example of our friends north of the 49th parallel oft having an innate civility, thoughtfulness we 'Muricans might emulate.

Thank you. 

[TAKerry]

I do not speed excessively. By that I mean that I will drive 50 in a 45, 70 on a 65 interstate etc. But driving like a maniac on backroads is just not my thing. Speed cameras in MD are not owned by the state. They are owned by private contractors with the state only getting a percentage of the revenue. That to me is the bad part. My small town had them at one time and part of the contract was that the company even bought a new police cruiser for the chief. Sorry, but I think there are some wrong things going with acts like that. Good or bad I dont know. I think the reason is probably a good thing the reality is about graft and corruption!

[Matt Harwood]

In most states, speed camera tickets are unenforceable. I know for a fact in Ohio, you can safely ignore them (because I have on multiple occasions with no ill effect). It boils down to being able to face your accuser in court, and they can't produce a microchip as a witness. They rely entirely on the fact that people are terrified of tickets and will willingly pay up when they receive such a thing in the mail.

Cleveland gave up on them years ago for this very reason--they weren't producing the revenue that was promised and the company pulled out.

 

Check your local regulations, but I bet it's likely that you can safely ignore camera-based tickets.

[ted sweet]

in nys there suspend the registration of vehicle

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

In most states, speed camera tickets are unenforceable. I know for a fact in Ohio, you can safely ignore them (because I have on multiple occasions with no ill effect). It boils down to being able to face your accuser in court, and they can't produce a microchip as a witness. They rely entirely on the fact that people are terrified of tickets and will willingly pay up when they receive such a thing in the mail.

Cleveland gave up on them years ago for this very reason--they weren't producing the revenue that was promised and the company pulled out.

 

Check your local regulations, but I bet it's likely that you can safely ignore camera-based tickets.

In MD I believe ones vehicle can not be registered if there are unpaid tickets of any kind. 

[avgwarhawk]

IMO, it's viewed as a deterant.  However, it's not to say it's abused.  MD route 100 was running work zone cameras yesterday. It was after 5 pm. Not a worker or equipment to be seen. The camera was just flashing away like nothing. I guess one could fight this in court.  The state is banking on the vehicle owner just paying and not bothering to take a day off. Drive to Annapolis. Pay $30 in parking. Possibly missing as days pay as a result. 

[MotiveLensPhoto]

On 4/23/2024 at 5:32 PM, avgwarhawk said:

What is a fair application of the law? Better yet, drive the speed limit. 

Fair application of the law is being able to face one's accusers, which is impossible in this instance. Yes, there is a human "reviewer" but they don't have to show up in court.

[Larry Schramm]

Until you get the money out of policing, police will not be respected.  Most individuals contact with police are with traffic stops and usually not pleasant.  Money is totally corrupting.  Look at Washington and your individual jurisdictions. 

 

Instead of money for traffic infractions, make community service the "fine".   It would allow individuals to contribute to the community and give them a tie in to the community.

Edited Wednesday at 11:31 PM by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

14 hours ago, MotiveLensPhoto said:

Fair application of the law is being able to face one's accusers, which is impossible in this instance. Yes, there is a human "reviewer" but they don't have to show up in court.

In which case the court needs to throw out the ticket. 

[avgwarhawk]

13 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

Until you get the money out of policing, police will not be respected.  Most individuals contact with police are with traffic stops and usually not pleasant.  Money is totally corrupting.  Look at Washington and your individual jurisdictions. 

 

Instead of money for traffic infractions, make community service the "fine".   It would allow individuals to contribute to the community and give them a tie in to the community.

Serve the community will generally require the accused to take time off work to serve. Income loss no matter how the infraction is handled. 

[Su8overdrive]

All three of you above are right as rain.  Monsignors Motive's, Schramm's, Avg's respective facing one's accusers, community service ensuring they have a dog in the hunt, yet that service still loss of income.  Perhaps our compatriot north of the 49th parallel well sums it.  But unless willing to pay for ubiquitous human patrol,  cameras seem inevitable.  Look how hard it is to get a human when dealing with Comcast, Verizon, any major organization.

 

  I don't think this remotely "politics,"  but the above is reason # 723 why every poll of scientists shows them agreeing our biggest by far problem remains overpopulation, their words: "bigger than climate."   All roads lead to this overarching conclusion, popular or not.  Any labworker can tell you how rats when crowded begin attacking one another.  Congestion, delays, speeding, accidents result.   Until we triage, focus on curbing mindless cloning, we're only rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.  8 1/8 billion people on a planet so small the towers of suspension bridges out of parallel to reflect the curvature of the earth,  something's gotta give. 350 million people in the US alone.  Yeah, yeah, everyone could fit in South Dakota, certainly Alberta.  But what about the farmland, resources to serve all those people?

 

  Global population didn't reach one billion 'til 1804, when Beethoven debuted his favorite of his nine symphonies,  two billion 'til Lindbergh flew a crude, single-engine tail dragger to Paris.  Most of the cars many of us like  were built between 1927 and the late '40s, when US population "only" 119 to 146 million.   Those of you who like modern stuff, global population didn't reach 3.3 billion 'til 1965, when biologists agree this wee globe reached its carrying capacity and our numbers began causing mass species extinction, according to 60 Minutes, US population  then 194 million.  The NY Times reports overpopulation fomenting, fostering pandemics.  Light pollution interrupts human circadian rhythm, causing breast cancer in women.

 

   So, until those with the education, grit, cojones to rejuvenate often vexing old automobiles help buck the consumer-driven media's blackout on the subject, kowtowing to those whose business model so weak it dependent on evermore customers and cheap labor, expect more cameras, more tickets, and enjoy the ride.  As is, oncology care is included in our GDP.   Our tax code was written when more babies meant more hands to work the family farm, half of all chidren not surviving beyond age four.

 

   Sometimes, you have to get to the basics, the cause of problems.  A respray and new seat covers do not a restoration make.

 

Edited Thursday at 10:24 PM by Su8overdrive (see edit history)