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How to get running - 1917 Maxwell 25 Touring automobile. (PA)


mrcvs

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I know this is an odd topic, but owning an early car that is too unique to have a local chapter, such as a Model A Club, and not having a network of aficionados around, how does one go about getting a car running and keeping it running?

 

Background:  I didn’t grow up around old cars but I certainly admire them.  I am younger than most on this forum probably, or at least those interested in the early stuff.  I have a 1917 Maxwell 25 Touring automobile.  I had a friend who worked on this with me and he was my age and we usually got it going.  It really takes two to work on a car.  Helps when working on timing, one entertains things inside the car, like depressing the starter, while the other leans over the engine, etc.  Sadly, he passed away during Covid.  The last time we worked on it after sitting for a winter, the starter didn’t seem to work, which had been going on for awhile, and we were using the crank by that point.  It would turn over but not start.  I think that was about 4 years ago now.

 

I found I never drove this car when running, as I was always afraid of breaking down far from home.  Also, I never got it to where overheating wasn’t a concern.  Lastly (I think), the carburetor was never trustworthy and would sometimes just start leaking gasoline.

 

With the loss of my friend, and working a ridiculous number of hours, I have just let the car sit.  Now, I’m at the point where I have to replace a few things to even consider having it run.  Namely, at a minimum, 4 new tires, due to dry rot, and a new battery.  I am switching jobs soon, and that might allow for more free time to work on things like cars—we shall see.

 

As it turned over but wouldn’t start, I don’t know what else I might need, and obtaining parts is an issue.  About 10 years ago, I threw a fan blade into the radiator, and managed to have that repaired and find a new fan blade, but I’m always afraid of a repeat of that.

 

I like this car as it’s unrestored and looks like a Beverly Hillbillies car!  
 

So, I’m at a crossroads here.  Sink a bunch of money in it even for tires and a battery and gave it not run or only have it run for a few miles or just maybe wait until retirement for this.  This is too old for a local mechanic to handle (I wish they could!), and even if they could, sometimes it’s a very long time before finding a particular part.

 

Im just looking for advice or ideas right now, especially if you have been or are in the same quagmire.

 

My wife would actually like this car to run again, and reliably so.

 

i thank you in advance.

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Good for you for being interested and asking the questions.  While your car is not particularly common,  it's not unique as far as the basics go.  It's much like almost any other teens car.    So you don't need a Maxwell-specific club, you just need to connect with people who know 'teens cars.  I suggest you see if there's an HCCA Regional Group in your area.  Your car would fit in perfectly and there may be people who could advise you on what it needs to get running, then run reliably.  One thing at a time.  And hold off on the tires until you have it starting easily, sounding good, and are confident about taking it for a test drive.

 

You can find the  list of HCCA Regional Groups on https://hcca.org.  You may also want to find a copy of Dyke's Automobile and Gasoline Engine Encyclopedia from that era. It has lots of information that will help you.  

 

Peter

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I am in the Allentown, Pennsylvania area.  
 

I feel guilty about relying on others I don’t even know when this is for my personal gain.  My buddy who died was a friend and I helped him out with some things going on in his life in return for his help.

 

But, on the other hand, I have asked for help.  So it is a very odd situation.

 

And I don’t know what my new job and its hours will really be like.  I’m guessing much less than the 60 to 70 hours a week I’ve worked for a long time.  If not, then this will have to be put on hiatus until I retire in 5 to 10 years.

 

The thought of paying someone to do it right has crossed my mind.  But who?  And at what cost?  But I rather enjoy learning and fixing it myself so that’s not a realistic option for me UNLESSit means the difference between actually running and being reliable and this not being the case.

 

There was a book about a man who also had a 1917 Maxwell and drove it across the country a few years ago.  He wrote a book about this called Chasing Grandpa.  I haven’t read it, but if a cross country trek can be done, 200 miles or so a year should be no sweat.

 

My biggest concern is overheating.  Well, I guess everything else problematic is a concern too but one thing I never could get right with this car and a 1930 Model A I had to sell because I lost my storage space was the propensity to overheat.

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  • Peter Gariepy changed the title to How to get running - 1917 Maxwell 25 Touring automobile

Recommendation:

  • Better topic title ( I changed it)
  • Be more direct in your questions in the description:  Example:  "I have a 1917 Maxwell and need help with overheating and other issues. Can anyone help?"  Your novel of lead up to your question distracts from getting you answers.
  • You live PA, the MECA for old car guys... there are lots of people to help.  But you need to take the effort to join local clubs and reach out.
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  • Peter Gariepy changed the title to How to get running - 1917 Maxwell 25 Touring automobile. (PA)

You shouldn't have a lot of problem finding someone in the PA area to help you with your car.  If you are not a member of a local AACA region, you should join one.  There are many regions in your area and through joining one you will meet people who can help you find someone to work on your car or help you with it.  You may consider joining the Horseless Carriage Club as well.  Officially they only recognize cars through 1915, but you would be welcomed and will find many who can help you there. 

 

I own a 1921 Maxwell 25 touring which is basically the same car.  As far as overheating, this car has a thermosyphon cooling system which acts much like an old percolator coffee pot.  The water begins to boil and that begins the circulation.  It may not be overheating, just doing what it should be doing., 

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7 hours ago, 61polara said:

You shouldn't have a lot of problem finding someone in the PA area to help you with your car.  If you are not a member of a local AACA region, you should join one.  There are many regions in your area and through joining one you will meet people who can help you find someone to work on your car or help you with it.  You may consider joining the Horseless Carriage Club as well.  Officially they only recognize cars through 1915, but you would be welcomed and will find many who can help you there. 

 

I own a 1921 Maxwell 25 touring which is basically the same car.  As far as overheating, this car has a thermosyphon cooling system which acts much like an old percolator coffee pot.  The water begins to boil and that begins the circulation.  It may not be overheating, just doing what it should be doing., 

You touched upon a few things…

 

My regret is being so close to the Horseless Carriage era, I did belong for awhile, but when I realized I have a space issue I may never be able to get a pre 1915 automobile.

 

Ket ne see how my new job is time wise and if I have some time for this hobby, I will join the AACA.  How do I find a chapter near me?

 

I would describe as the radiator percolates and that’s why I’ve never driven it more than 7 or 8 miles from home, and, more recently, the furthest I had been in 2015 or 2016 was Das Auscht Fecht about 4 or 5 miles away.

 

How do I tell the difference between percolation and overheating?

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Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area

call my friend Skip Seaton

at Skip’s Restorations in

New Salem, Pennsylvania 

 

 

 

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 

call my friend Lou Mandich

at Last Chance Garage 

in Unionville, Pennsylvania

 

 

Jim

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There are 31 AACA Regions and Chapters in PA.  Go to the AACA Home page (aaca.org) and select "Regions" .  Select PA in the dropdown and all the Regions and Chapters in PA will be listed.  Contact information is listed for the Region President.

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I highly recommend joining the AACA, and especially a local group. You may want to inquire about how much of their local memberships fools around with the early cars. I know that a few of this forum's best members with early cars are in Pennsylvania, or nearby.

However, don't write off the HCCA entirely. While the national club is basically strict pre1916, something of which I fully support (yes I am one of those die-hards in the HCCA, and proud of it!). The national club does recognize that the needs of local Regional Groups can vary, and allows them to to include somewhat newer cars in their clubs as active members and participate on local tours and events. The Regional Group I belong to in California is still primarily pre1916, however, allows older members to participate in local activities with cars somewhat later than 1916.

Many Horseless Carriage members have nickel era or other cars from the 1930s. You could have good luck finding help in either the AACA or the HCCA.

 

I am not very good at searching forums for past discussions. However, a couple (few?) years ago, Ed in Mass did quite a thread on reviving his 1917 big White touring car, including a radiator and block flush using (I think?) Evaporust (may be misspelled?)?  Maybe someone here better than I can find a link to it? Others have done it since, and it seems to cure a lot of overheating issues.

What type of radiator does your Maxwell have? I have known several Maxwells over the years and have seen both honeycomb type and tube and fin type radiators on them. Honeycomb (cellular) type radiators can be very difficult to clean out by traditional methods. The cellular shapes cannot be rodded out in the typical way, and sometimes do not respond well to simple boiling out of the core. The longer slower flowing of Ed's method did a much better job of cleaning out the old radiator.

Tube and fin radiators are different issues. They are easier to clean, can be rodded out, then boiled. However, they also have a failure mode that is very difficult to fix. When manufactured, the fins are made, and punched with a lot of holes for the tubes to press into. The pressed together tubes and fins conduct heat effectively and flowing air carries the heat away keeping the engine plenty cool enough. However, with age, corrosion builds between the tubes and fins, reducing the thermal conductivity, and the air can no longer carry away enough heat to keep the engine from getting too hot. If this has happened, it can be very difficult or impossible to fix it.

Model T Fords used tube and fin radiators from the factory throughout their seventeen year run. Honeycomb type were made and sold as after-market replacements. I have had good luck running originals of both types. Hopefully, yours will work out fine. 

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My radiator style is fin and tube.

 

Let me do some research into what AACA chapter to join as there certainly is overlap in the area of Pennsylvania that I reside.  And if any recommendations as to which one  might be best given overlap, in the Macungie, PA area for 1917 and earlier automobiles?  I am in the Lehigh Valley, but not far from the Berks County line, etc.

 

And, a LOT will depend on my new job.  Other than leave, in which my wife wants me to do things other than work on cars, I have been living out of a hotel for my job for quite some time and I’ve been home only about 30 hours a week.  You can see why it was time to change jobs.

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  • 4 months later...

Okay, the weather’s getting better and I’ll try to get this car running in the next few months.

 

Having said that, if one is in Pennsylvania and decides to throw in the towel, whom should one turn to for professional help?  Even if I get it running right, there’s a few pesky things I’ve never been able to get right, namely the following:

 

Water bubbling and boiling out of the radiator.  Some have said that’s correct and it’s not overheating—but I’m not so sure.  Radiator fluid shouldn’t overflow.  But then again, the radiator fluid sets to its desired level eventually—which, to me, seems alarmingly low.

 

The carburetor never seems right and, at times, gasoline just pours out of it, until I stop that, of course.

 

This is an unrestored automobile, and I want to keep it that way, so bodywork is not needed.  Mechanical soundness, however, is desired.

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1 hour ago, mrcvs said:

Water bubbling and boiling out of the radiator.  Some have said that’s correct and it’s not overheating—but I’m not so sure.  Radiator fluid shouldn’t overflow.  But then again, the radiator fluid sets to its desired level eventually—which, to me, seems alarmingly low.

Water expands a lot with heat. A huge airspace to absorb the extra volume of water was designed into all cars in the days before overflow tanks, usually in the top of the radiator. I don't know what the exact proper level is for a 17 Maxwell, but if the radiator tubes are completely covered you are not losing cooling area. Of course I can't tell if there's a problem or not from here, I'm thousands of miles away from Pennsylvania. There could be a real problem, but if it settles down at some level that leaves the tubes covered, and it does not boil, it is probably fine.

 

1 hour ago, mrcvs said:

The carburetor never seems right and, at times, gasoline just pours out of it, until I stop that, of course.

Way back in the teens cork floats were common, sealed with shellac. If that is what you have, it won't work reliably with modern fuel because of the alcohol. You'll need a new one, and sealed with something impervious to alcohol. The carb may need other work too. The needle and seat could be worn out and not sealing. Needles and seats from that era had no elastometric tip, and just barely worked in the first place. It takes hardly any wear to make them stop working. Is this a gravity feed system? I would guess yes. I have a 13 Studebaker with an original cork float. The carburetor has a drain on it, and I drain it whenever I am not driving, thereby not giving the float time to saturate with fuel. If the carburetor did not have a drain, there is no way I would get away with still using this float. I don't know if a 17 Maxwell has a drain. A brass replacement float would be one of the better possible solutions. That isn't practical on some carburetors. Some people use Nitrophyl. I don't like it, but even that is better than 100+ year old cork with the shellac washed off.

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2 hours ago, mrcvs said:

The carburetor never seems right and, at times, gasoline just pours out of it, until I stop that, of course.

Bloos comments are most likely correct, if fuel is pouring out, you have a failure with the float and or float valve.

 

Cork was commonly used in a lot of early carbs, was coated with shellac (which is alcohol soluble), The alcohol in fuels made since the 1960s would soften and remove the shellac and the cork becomes saturated with fuel.

 

Many carbs also used brass hollow floats, brass isn't affected by alcohol, however, brass floats are soldered together, the solder over time from temperature changes and vibration tends to crack allowing the float to suck in fuel each time the temp changes until in no long floats.

 

What type of float you have depends on what carb brand and model you have..

 

Post some pictures of the carb you have, there are some carb savvy people that most likely could identify your carb from pictures.

 

Carb may need torn down, cleaned and refreshed, but it may be possible to sub in a different brand from that time period.

 

Get the carb under control, then look into what is happening with the cooling system as the carb can affect the cooling system some.

 

I did find a post on this forum from yrs ago that you might find interesting..

 

 

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As someone said earlier in this thread, get in contact with Lou Mandich in Unionville, PA, Last Chance Garage,.  he works on early stuff.  Also, if you are near Allentown, have you had any success in contacting Keith Flickinger at the NBCenter For Automotive Heritage (Bulgari Complex) right there in Allentown or any of the people that work there? They are hooked up with I believe Penn College and train on old cars.  You should be able to network there as well as Das Aukfest close to you.

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2 hours ago, Century Eight said:

As someone said earlier in this thread, get in contact with Lou Mandich in Unionville, PA, Last Chance Garage,.  he works on early stuff.  Also, if you are near Allentown, have you had any success in contacting Keith Flickinger at the NBCenter For Automotive Heritage (Bulgari Complex) right there in Allentown or any of the people that work there? They are hooked up with I believe Penn College and train on old cars.  You should be able to network there as well as Das Aukfest close to you.

Okay, will do & good suggestions.

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3 hours ago, ABear said:

Bloos comments are most likely correct, if fuel is pouring out, you have a failure with the float and or float valve.

 

Cork was commonly used in a lot of early carbs, was coated with shellac (which is alcohol soluble), The alcohol in fuels made since the 1960s would soften and remove the shellac and the cork becomes saturated with fuel.

 

Many carbs also used brass hollow floats, brass isn't affected by alcohol, however, brass floats are soldered together, the solder over time from temperature changes and vibration tends to crack allowing the float to suck in fuel each time the temp changes until in no long floats.

 

What type of float you have depends on what carb brand and model you have..

 

Post some pictures of the carb you have, there are some carb savvy people that most likely could identify your carb from pictures.

 

Carb may need torn down, cleaned and refreshed, but it may be possible to sub in a different brand from that time period.

 

Get the carb under control, then look into what is happening with the cooling system as the carb can affect the cooling system some.

 

I did find a post on this forum from yrs ago that you might find interesting..

 

 

The carburetor I had on it when purchased was a later one and has a cork float.  It never worked right.  It is on the car now as the replacement one I got was authentic and what was on the car originally, and even though it has a brass float, I’m not convinced it was going to work right, either, and it wasn’t simply a matter of swapping out one for the other.  I was afraid I would retrofit for the other carburetor, not have it work, and then backtrack and have to retrofit it back to what it was.

 

Modern gas isn’t exactly helpful with regards to the matter.

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17 hours ago, mrcvs said:

The carburetor I had on it when purchased was a later one and has a cork float.  It never worked right.  It is on the car now as the replacement one I got was authentic and what was on the car originally, and even though it has a brass float, I’m not convinced it was going to work right, either, and it wasn’t simply a matter of swapping out one for the other.  I was afraid I would retrofit for the other carburetor, not have it work, and then backtrack and have to retrofit it back to what it was.

 

Modern gas isn’t exactly helpful with regards to the matter.

Yeah, retrofitting carbs can be a pain, sometimes one must end up doing so depending on what you have to work with. Typically end up having to make adjustments/changes for the throttle linkages at a minimum but when faced with the possibility of a non repairable carb changing my to different carb may be in order.

 

But here is the rub, while you can send out the carbs to a rebuilder, they can only rebuild it and unless they have the exact engine to tune it on the final tuning to your engine will have to be done on your end after you install it.

 

Right now, we know that you obviously have too much fuel spilling out of the carb, that isn't all that difficult to diagnose. Comes down to only a few components to check.

 

1 Float level, too high of float level, adjusting that varies according to each manufacturer and model of the carbs.

 

2 Float level, float not floating high enough to to close the float valve, typical causes is saturated float, if cork, then cork needs dried out and then recoated with fuel proof paint. Some have used fuel proof rocket paints like used to paint model rockets..

 

If brass, float has leaky seam(s), must locate the leaks, empty and dry inside of float and resolder the found leaky spots shut. Does require some good soldering skills to accomplish and may take multiple attempts.

 

Repairing leaky brass floats isn't super hard if you follow some basic soldering practices so you will need to clean up the brass around the seams well, solder doesn't stick to brass unless it is clean.

 

To check for leaks on a brass float, you will need to remove float from carb, you will need a small bowl of warm to hot water, dunk the float into the bowl of water and watch for bubbles to form around the seams. Once you locate the hole(s), mark them with marker.

 

Typically there is a little "pinhole" that is intentionally present on or near top of float that will be covered with a spot of solder, you will need to locate that hole as it must be open when resoldering a brass float so you can remove that little dab, then proceed to emptying the float of any fuel that was drawn in.

 

Don't use a propane torch, too much heat, you will need a soldering gun or soldering station that can develop enough heat to melt the solder but not melt or disform the thin brass.

 

You will need a good flux (flux is used to chemically clean the brass and existing solder), I have found that the same flux used for copper plumbing works very well and is milder than some types typically used for radiator work. To keep the soldering temp as low as possible I have used rosin core solder meant for soldering electrical connections. Getting a bit hard to find lower temp solders as new solder is more often lead free which requires considerably more heat to melt.

 

Once you have a good clean float then apply flux to the leaky spot, apply heat, let flux start to bubble then add some solder to fill the spot, once solder has started to flow remove heat, wait for float to cool to room temp, close the little pin hole and retry dunking float in hot water and look for bubbles.

 

Sometimes you end up chasing the hole all the way around the seam and that is OK, just try to avoid adding excessive amounts of solder in the process as that will affect buoyancy.

 

If you don't feel comfortable with that, then sending out to a carb rebuilder may be the way to go.

 

3 Leaky float valve and seat, float valve and seat can wear out or just have some sediment build up preventing the valve from closing. Repairs may vary as some seats may or may not be removable or parts not available.

 

4 If someone has outfitted your car with an electric fuel pump, that may be the cause of fuel overflowing, especially if your car was originally designed with fuel tank above the carb (IE gravity flow). Electric fuel pumps can often deliver higher than needed fuel pressure or need a external pressure regulator and together can be a cause of a lot of fuel related issues.

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Maxwell tried many of the early carburetor manufacturers.

 

In 1912 and 1913, they used Strombergs on the larger fours.

 

On the 186 CID, Maxwell used: Kingston, Zephyr, K & D, Johnson, Eagle, Stewart, and Zenith. The Zenith used was the T4X, so one has to compete with the antique motorcycle folks for these.

 

If I owned a Maxwell with the 186 CID, it WOULD have a Stewart carburetor.

 

ABear's comments on repairing a float are very good. I would add the following:

 

Once the hole has been located, any fuel in the float may be forced out by holding the float under a hot water faucet with the hole down. The hot water will pressurize the float, and drive out the fuel.

 

Once you have the expansion hole open, use the old type soldering "iron" (actually copper) that you heat with a blow torch. HOLD THE FLOAT IN YOUR FINGERS WHEN SOLDERING. IF YOU CAN'T HOLD IT IN YOUR FINGERS, YOU DIDN'T USE ENOUGH HEAT!

 

Jon

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Soldering on floats can drive you crazy. That little pinhole @ABear mentioned? Notice closely what that paragraph says because he just gave you the secret. The little pinhole under the solder dot must be open while you are working on the float. Don't skip opening it. Any soldering you do on a closed float will create pressure inside from expanding air (or maybe gas), and if the pinhole is not open you will get leaks in your work, every time. Repair the seam or damage, and THEN close the little pinhole. It may be fiddly to close, but at least it isn't a whole seam. You might have to cool the back side of the float (ice water or something?) as you pull the soldering iron away when re-closing the little pinhole. You must make the air inside the float stand still long enough for the dot of solder over the pinhole to cool without blowing out.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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IIRC, it has a Johnson, I purchased a K & D, but probably should go with a Zephyr, although not correct for 1917, as it seemed to work well on a 1930 Model A Ford I used to own.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I had stated, IIRC, this car has a Johnson, which it had when purchased, and I did not switch to the K & D, as it wasn’t a 1:1 swap and I didn’t want to modify it only to have to modify it back.  Well, IIRC, and I did not recall correctly, as I did modify and install the K & D carburetor a few years ago.  The important point is IIRC.  I have no recollection of modifying and changing the carburetor out, but here it is.  Either I did it, or a gremlin.

 

IMG_2879.jpeg

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Check out the Susquehanna Valley Regional Group of HCCA.  They run big tours that are pre-'16 only, but also a lot of small one-day affairs that welcome cars into the '30s.  Contact is Jeff Lesher, jefflesher@outlook.com.  Good guy.  His wife, Tracy, edits the national magazine, the Horseless Carriage Gazette.

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On 4/20/2024 at 1:31 PM, mrcvs said:

 

Having said that, if one is in Pennsylvania and decides to throw in the towel, whom should one turn to for professional help?  Even if I get it running right, there’s a few pesky things I’ve never been able to get right, namely the following:

 

I have seen Lou Mandich recommenmded and can vouch for him. He did a lot of work on my 1962 Skylark about 15 years or so ago. I have not used him lately, but understand he still has a good reputation. If you are looking for something closer, check out Ragtops & Roadsters. They have locations in Perkasie and Pottstown, both fairly close to Allentown. They have done extensive work on my car over the last several years. They changed ownership a couple years ago, and I have not visited them since the change, but I was always happy with the work they did.

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