Intermittent NO-START on 65 Riviera Gran Sport

[Craig Balzer]

Symptoms:

• so far, it happens after I have driven 20-30 minutes (or longer) so the engine and all else is warmed up. It may occur after driving fewer miles, but I rarely drive/cruise it less than 20 minutes at a time
• no other common issues to the half dozen instances
• when I turn the ignition key, there is absolutely no noise: no click from solenoid or anywhere else (does this car have a starter relay? if so, where?)
• the only visual indicator is that the Amp and Oil lamps (which come on bright when I turn the key to 1 o'clock position to initiate starting), both dim by ~50% when I attempt to start the engine
• the car is firmly in Park
• when this no-start situation occurs, the engine may fire with the very next attempt or it can 12 or 15 (or more) (over a span of 30 minutes) attempts before the engine fires

 

Coincidently, my Rivi displayed this no-start issue when I dropped it off at the repair garage last week. So I added Intermittent NO-START to the punch list.

 

My mechanic dropped the starter and:

• tightened the lug to which the pos cable is attached to the solenoid
• cleaned the contact points
• opened/cleaned the solenoid generally although there wasn't much "crap" in it
• they also checked the ignition tumbler in the dash - no slop; and the wires on the tumbler were tightly attached to its back
• after reinstalling the starter, my Riv started right up and also for the next 12 to 15 attempts by the mechanic during his test of operation

 

When driving home from the repair garage today, I ran out of gas (long story). After a nice Fall stroll to a nearby service station and adding 2 gallons of hi-test, my Rivi failed to start (see above). It took 12-15 attempts starts before the turn of ignition did anything beside illuminate the oil & amp lamps. Evidently it started, run rough for 5-10 seconds, then smoothed down.

 

Once started, I topped off the fuel tank (with the engine running) and drove home without any issues or fanfare. At home and safely parked in the garage, I stopped and restarted the car a dozen times without incident.

 

Any idea what the issue may be? Appears to me to be electrical but intermittent electric issues are a bear to ID.

 

[RivNut]

How hot is it outside when this happens?  A number of years ago my 63 had a similar problem.  It turned out that the armature in the starter motor was getting hot and expanding inside the body of the starter. It expanded enough so that it would not turn.  After letting things cool for a while, the armature would contract and spin freely again.  I was able to prove this by dousing the body of the starter with cool water. The water would bring down the temperature enough to loosen things up inside.  I took out the original starter and had it rebuilt to “high torque” specs - whatever that means.  When I took it in to the rebuilder and told him what was going on, he’s the one who came up with the “high torque” solution.  Ran fine ever since.  

[Craig Balzer]

Good thought but sometimes the car would immediately start (or within a moment or two), so a heat-affected armature would ruled out -- yes??

[Seafoam65]

Make sure that you have clean tight connections at the battery posts.

If there is no problem there, it is either the battery or the starter in all probability.

If the battery is old, I recommend you just go ahead and change it out. If the battery

is not very old, it is probably the starter. If it is the starter, most likely if you had somebody with you to

help check it out when the problem happens, in all probability it will turn over when the starter

is banged on with a hammer while the key is being held down. If banging on the starter makes it turn over

you will know for certain that's what's wrong.  If you have a helper  with you when it happens, you can check to see if it's the battery by hooking a voltmeter up to the top of the battery posts and checking the voltage while the key is being held down when it won't start All that being said, the most likely cause is a bad starter.

[Riviera63]

I had a similar problem 2 years ago. My car would start fine multiple times and then for no reason I would go to start it and nothing. Completely dead. The first couple of times I put the battery charger on it thinking I had left a light on or not turned the key completely off and the next time it would start. I took the battery to be tested and it tested good. I swapped out the ignition switch and all was good. A month later my brother and I took my car to a BCA event in Saint Louis. All was good until we stopped at my mother's house to see her and let my brother off to pick up his truck. When I came out to drive home, completely dead. I thought at that time it has to be the battery. We were fortunate to be able to find a battery on a Sunday. That same battery is still in the car and no problems since. I asked the shop where I have my car worked on about this. They said that they have seen this happen at the shop with increasing frequency. The battery tests good but, the battery is bad and is the culprit. May or may not be your problem but, worth a try.

 

Bill

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, Craig Balzer said:

Good thought but sometimes the car would immediately start (or within a moment or two), so a heat-affected armature would ruled out -- yes??

Not necessarily.  Any cooling could cause the armature to contract.  Just try the water trick.  If it works you at last know it’s in the starter motor. If no, look more.

[lrlforfun]

The mechanic seemed to fail to properly diagnose.  When the key is on what was the draw on the starter? A good start.  Does it crank at all but not fire?? And...test the battery. Electrolyte , check for a dead cell, put a 2 amp float charge on it for a few days and then do a load test. It burns off the surface charge and if the needle holds your battery is probably good.

Edited September 7, 2023 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

Just so you know........a battery that checks good on a load test can do what you describe

as your problem. What actually happens is that there is an intermittent connection breakdown inside

the battery between one of the posts and the plates. This doesn't happen where the problem is intermittent

very often but it can and does happen sometimes. I've seen it in my car repair business maybe twelve times. This is dangerous because when they lose connection to the  post internally they can arc  at the post internally

and cause the battery to explode. Again not common but I have seen it happen about five times over the years. Usually batteries that have this intermittent start symptom are old batteries........4 years old or older. Because of the explosion risk if I suspect it may be the battery I just go ahead and disconnect it and replace it

because I don't want to be standing over the battery checking juice at the post when it could possibly explode in my face.

[abandg]

Craig, check the hot wire at the ignition switch. It is the red wire and turns to pink due the current going through the wire. It can be your problem but it's just another place to look. Gene. I will ship your item on Tuesday. 

[1965rivgs]

12 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

Just so you know........a battery that checks good on a load test can do what you describe

as your problem. What actually happens is that there is an intermittent connection breakdown inside

the battery between one of the posts and the plates. This doesn't happen where the problem is intermittent

very often but it can and does happen sometimes. I've seen it in my car repair business maybe twelve times. This is dangerous because when they lose connection to the  post internally they can arc  at the post internally

and cause the battery to explode. Again not common but I have seen it happen about five times over the years. Usually batteries that have this intermittent start symptom are old batteries........4 years old or older. Because of the explosion risk if I suspect it may be the battery I just go ahead and disconnect it and replace it

because I don't want to be standing over the battery checking juice at the post when it could possibly explode in my face.

  It may not be your primary issue but you might consider replacing the battery immediately. You will have the proper basis for diagnostics if the problem persists and since battery replacement is routine periodic maintenance the cost of a new battery is minimal.

  The battery is the heart of the electrical system and especially the cranking system...and is a component, unlike starters, alternators, etc, which should be replaced on a regular and periodic basis...especially in a lightly operated collector car.

Tom Mooney

Edited September 7, 2023 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Neutral switch, ignition switch, non visible internal corrosion of battery cables are a few other possibilities. Unless you understand the basics of how electrical systems work , you are basically hoping you get lucky and one of the suggestions here turns out to be the culprit. Save yourself grief and money by taking the car to a shop the SPECIALIZES in automobile electrical repairs. 

[Lee H]

17 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

in all probability it will turn over when the starter

is banged on with a hammer while the key is being held down. If banging on the starter makes it turn over

you will know for certain that's what's wrong. 

+1

[dr914]

sounds like a bad starter solenoid to me, one way to check is to put a test light on the small solenoid lead when it will not start and see if when turning the key to "crank" if the test light lights.  If it does the starter is bad and should be replaced

 

[Craig Balzer]

15 hours ago, lrlforfun said:

When the key is on what was the draw on the starter? A good start.  Does it crank at all but not fire??

Irlforfun

As I stated in my initial post:

• when I turn the ignition key, there is absolutely no noise: no click from solenoid or anywhere else (does this car have a starter relay? if so, where?)

and then 

It took 12-15 attempts starts before the turn of ignition did anything beside illuminate the oil & amp lamps. 

[Craig Balzer]

Thanks to all for comments and insights,

One point I didn't make clear but was implied in the title: Being intermittent, it is/was difficult to diagnose.

Every time the mechanic went to start the engine during the week it was in his shop, it fired perfectly. They test-started the car over a dozen times during the week they had it.

I initially said:

20 hours ago, Craig Balzer said:

When driving home from the repair garage today, I ran out of gas (long story). After a nice Fall stroll to a nearby service station and adding 2 gallons of hi-test, my Rivi failed to start (see above). It took 12-15 attempts starts before the turn of ignition did anything beside illuminate the oil & amp lamps.

Once I got it started, I returned to the repair garage thinking that since it took so many tries to start it, that something finally failed.

At the repair shop, they shut off the engine and restarted 6-9 times consecutively without issue or pause. Fires immediately and idles smoothly.

 

Given the past several months of history, the next no-start event could be tomorrow of several months from today.

[Craig Balzer]

19 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

If the battery is old, I recommend you just go ahead and change it out.

 

13 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

Usually batteries that have this intermittent start symptom are old batteries

 

What I am hearing is that even a new-ish battery can still be bad. Next time I get a no-start situation (whenever that is) , I'll put a  meter on the battery. But I live alone so getting a reading will be a challenge. And for what it is worth - my battery is less than two years old - installed in Oct 2021.

And as I am sure is the case with most here, my Riv is driven only in the summer months so only sees a few 100/ maybe 1-2,000 miles a year.

[Craig Balzer]

5 hours ago, abandg said:

It is the red wire and turns to pink due the current going through the wire. It can be your problem

Gene

What - besides a loose/bad connection -- am I looking?

I ask cuz in my original post, I said

20 hours ago, Craig Balzer said:

they also checked the ignition tumbler in the dash - no slop; and the wires on the tumbler were tightly attached to its back

 

[Seafoam65]

It's not going to be a switch problem or wiring problem other than the bat cable connections.

These  items are not affected by engine temp and you state it always starts when the engine is cold. 

It is the battery, the starter or the battery cable connections.

[Dundee]

My 5 Aussie cents worth having read the thread is of the rough running only occurred after running out of fuel then likely no relevance other than engine getting its fuel supply back in order, sure other more mechanical minded have thoughts there.

second I think important is the dimming warning lights as this suggests a load being applied when the key is turned or even a short which could be stealing the power needed to crank. Others need to confirm if you would normally hear the click from the solenoid in this vehicle? I know in most cars you do. I own a 63 and looking at wiring diagram won’t quote wire colours as they may be different. If some kind of load or short is present and the car has a neutral safety switch then we could assume it is operating. I know you ensured it was in park but did you try shifting it out of park and back when you had the issue to see if it maybe is the intermittent problem.?  With a safety switch I would try the key with shift in D to see if the lamps dim or not.
#1 For sure a Battery barn can do an easy crank test on battery. #2 locate the ignition key wire at both ends tumbler and starter solenoid (on the starter). Get an insulation test with a meter and expect that given a 12 volt system it would almost be a dead short or zero ohms between wire and ground if the problem was present. If not present you need a proper insulation tester and see how it reads , electricians carry these in their tool kit. If all connections on starter and tumbler are good you could check all vulnerable areas where wiring may damage like through firewall, where wires rub on body including the starters main feed which in 63 case is from horn relay positive post. 
The 2 relevant things I read are dimming lights suggesting load and no click if we should be able to hear it assuming battery is good. If I had cause to be suspicious of the ignition wire I would run a temporary one from ignition to solenoid via the neutral safety switch and see how it goes for a while. If you have the problem still then you have ruled out the ignition wire. For a 63 there is a lot going on with the terminal on the horn relay both main starter supply and ignition feed so that connection point is critical if you have the same set up. Even to the point of removing all those wires from the post checking lugs and cleaning and refit. Remember disconnect positive from battery before doing any of this…

[NTX5467]

Here's another layer of diagnosis, but you'll need a good digital meter to do it.  With the engine stopped, check the voltage to various parts of the engine and body, from the battery.  This is your reference value.  Start the car as normal and re-check at the same places.  This should be greater due to the alternator and voltage regulator action.  

 

When the no-start issue appears, get the meter and check the voltages again.  If they are lower than the first "engine stopped" value, clean and re-connect all electrical connections in the normal ground circuits of the battery.  Including the battery posts themselves.  Recheck voltages with the engine not running.  Then turn the ignition switch to "run" and re-check.  Start the car and re-check.

 

In all of these voltage checks, check the voltage from the battery to the end of the cables attached to it, too.

 

I had a strange situation on my '77 Camaro (which I bought new).  One night, while driving around, I came to a stop sign and stopped.  I noticed the engine speed was dropping, so I blipped the throttle a few times to get the rpm back up.  When the speed was dropping, the radio made a "motor boat" engine sound through the speakers.  Once the rpm came back up, radio sounded normal.  This was strange and "different".  When similar conditions happened, a few blips of the throttle (in gear, against the brake) always fixed it.  

 

Then it got into a "hot soak no start" situation.  I thought of a bad neutral safety switch first, but that did not change anything.  Letting the car sit and cool down always fixed that.  I was always on the watch for these things, choosing when to shut off the engine and park.  One day, I drove the car to lunch at home.  I noticed the a/c fan was not working.  When I got home, I got out the meter and started to check voltages.  The voltages were down about .3 volts from normal, with the engine running.  As I had the hood up doing the checks, suddenly the blower motor came on and the voltages returned to normal.  I saw no changes in what I had been looking at, although the voltages were now normal.

 

I finally decided to start with the ground cable from the battery to the alternator bracket.  It was OEM production and had nothing in its appearance to indicate a problem.  BUT when I changed it, all of the issues vanished.  Something internal to the cable, obviously, under the insulation.  

 

On my 2005 Impala, it got a starting issue, which was "normal with age" for those cars (and other GM cars which used the same ignition switch, in the instrument panel on this car).  A new switch and "better" termination of the wires in it, was the GM TSB fix.

 

On a non-GM car I have, it started to have an intermittent "no start" issue.  I traced it down to the bulkhead connector for the wire going to the ignition switch.  When a sudden no start issue happened, that was the place I learned to look first.  Plugged it in more firmly and things happened as they should.

 

Through all of your diagnostics, DO clean the battery terminals.  Even a slight, insignificant-looking, thin layer of grunge between the posts and battery terminals can cause a no-start problems too.  On a modern high-amp system, such things can result in the charging system check being less than spec by about 10%, as we discovered in the shop in the 1990s.

 

Experiences and thoughts,

NTX54677

[Craig Balzer]

19 hours ago, Dundee said:

second I think important is the dimming warning lights

I also felt that this symptom was key but my thimble-full of knowledge related to automotive electronics was quickly emptied.

Thanx for all your thoughts

[1965rivgs]

30 minutes ago, Craig Balzer said:

I also felt that this symptom was key but my thimble-full of knowledge related to automotive electronics was quickly emptied.

Thanx for all your thoughts

  Lights dimming while a load is initiated can be excessive load...or a bad or undercharged battery.

Tom Mooney

[Craig Balzer]

OK - I am going out to garage RIGHT NOW and put a trickle charger on my Riv's battery

[65VerdeGS]

My bet is a bad starter.  I had a similar problem but mine would not start when the car had been running for a while and I tried to re-start soon after.  Letting the beast cool down allowed the starter to resume working as it should.  Likely armature issue or some other mystery in the starter.  I replaced my starter and the problem went away.

 

Craig - Let us know once you solve your issue so we can learn from your experience.

 

Good luck!

[Craig Balzer]

18 hours ago, Craig Balzer said:

OK - I am going out to garage RIGHT NOW and put a trickle charger on my Riv's battery

Interesting thing - when I attached the trickle charger to the battery it immediately showed a red light. This indicates that charging is occurring. The Riv was on the road just 3-4 days for ~45 minutes.

 

Not definitive but yet another indicator

[XframeFX]

Related Points:

1) The solenoid is on the starter.

2) Ignition Switch Harness Plug

3) Neutral/BU Switch on shifter

4) 12V CarBattery

5) Solenoid Heat Shield (missing?)

 

Possible cause hot or cold points, #1 to 4

Possible cause hot, #4 & 5

 

Since your Shop already addressed the starter/solenoid and I would always change the solenoid if I had to deal with the starter, the battery should be scrutinized. Strap a fully charged spare in the trunk (in a marine battery box) with booster cables. The next next time this happens, try boosting.

Always good to have a Multi-Meter for trouble shooting. If alone, use long leads, pick up system voltage from inside to observe while driving (cigarette lighter?). Use a momentary switch under the hood connected to the firewall bulkhead to crank with ignition ON/OFF.

 

There are three system voltages:

1) Static Battery when shut down (>12.6 Vdc)

2) Voltage during operation - charging (approx. 14Vdc)

3) Cranking Voltage (approx. 10.2 Vdc)

 

A red indicator always shows on a charger initially. If there's a prolonged "ON" status,  then that indicates something. Again, a good auto-ranging Multi-meter, your best tool for now and future.

 

Oh, not one to brag. I have a lifetime battery in my Riviera from when Canadian Tire first opened on Level #2 in West Edmonton Mall. Upstairs for an Auto Shop? They've long moved away to a more practical ground level facility. I think I'm on my 5th gratis battery!

 

Good Luck!

 

[gungeey]

10 minutes ago, XframeFX said:

Related Points:

1) The solenoid is on the starter.

2) Ignition Switch Harness Plug

3) Neutral/BU Switch on shifter

4) 12V CarBattery

5) Solenoid Heat Shield (missing?)

 

Possible cause hot or cold points, #1 to 4

Possible cause hot, #4 & 5

 

Since your Shop already addressed the starter/solenoid and I would always change the solenoid if I had to deal with the starter, the battery should be scrutinized. Strap a fully charged spare in the trunk (in a marine battery box) with booster cables. The next next time this happens, try boosting.

Always good to have a Multi-Meter for trouble shooting. If alone, use long leads, pick up system voltage from inside to observe while driving (cigarette lighter?). Use a momentary switch under the hood connected to the firewall bulkhead to crank with ignition ON/OFF.

 

There are three system voltages:

1) Static Battery when shut down (>12.6 Vdc)

2) Voltage during operation - charging (approx. 14Vdc)

3) Cranking Voltage (approx. 10.2 Vdc)

 

A red indicator always shows on a charger initially. If there's a prolonged "ON" status,  then that indicates something. Again, a good auto-ranging Multi-meter, your best tool for now and future.

 

Oh, not one to brag. I have a lifetime battery in my Riviera from when Canadian Tire first opened on Level #2 in West Edmonton Mall. Upstairs for an Auto Shop? They've long moved away to a more practical ground level facility. I think I'm on my 5th gratis battery!

 

Good Luck!

 

 

Only one to bring up missing heat shield. That coupled with corroded rotted "green copper" connections and terminals on 60 year old wiring

 

[XframeFX]

5 hours ago, gungeey said:

That coupled with corroded rotted "green copper" connections and terminals on 60 year old wiring

I've have had a hell-of-a-time sourcing proper GXL or SXL automotive wire (X-Linked insulation and 125⁰C rating). Only place to purchase small quantities is Wire barn in NY someplace.

So. I've been using marine wire rated at 105⁰C and each strand is tinned for corrosion resistance. Good enuff😆

 

I read a Ron Francis tutorial on auto wire but this site is even better. Good reference to download!

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1110172-how-to-safely-choose-the-rght-wire-size-and-type.html