Thoughts on my pursuit of a potentially troublesome auto. - Citroen

[Rusty_OToole]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:35 PM, John348 said:

I always wanted a Cosworth Vega since word went out that GM was coming out with them around 1973 or 1972. Well fifty years later I did get one, and my Father was right, it really was a POS, and I did not regret it in the long run, and at least I can say now I did own one  (I let someone else share the joy of owning it after a few years) So if it is your dream go for it, just make sure your wallet is padded.

What was the matter with the Cosworth? It seemed like a good idea at the time, a high perf version of a motor they already had, for sporty and luxury cars. I thought it could have been developed and used for years but it only lasted about 2 years, I always wondered why?

[jhh2206]

PWN

 

Ok, you asked for it. The first cars I owned were DS models. For an SM , multiply the  below  by 10 , I guess, except the engine in a DS is pretty much fool proof, unlike the rest for the car. The Maserati engine in an SM is a different animal.

 

At the end of my junior year at Boston University in 1973 I need a car for student teaching. Stuart, in my dorm found a very nice Peugeot 403 for not much money, through a friend of a friend. Bingo!  The friend of a friend was named Lance. Those of you with too many car magazines lying  about will find articles about Lance in the last two issues of Hemmings Sports and Exotic Cars.

 

This was very soon after Citroen left the American market. I don't think they were ever very serious about it.  My understanding is that Citroen was exceeding  the new safety standards in way that was illegal and they considered themselves. above complying . The DS was about to be replaced by the CX  anyway, which was never imported here.

 

Citroens  were therefore in a state of free fall and Lance's mission in life was to find as many Citroens and parts as he as he could and find owners for them . He kept a pretty close track on this. I ended up up with a recently painted 1964 DS 19 and bought some tools and we  were off.

 

After a while I learned a lot. There are only two modes of Citroen operation, otherworldly or totally unacceptable.  The car experienced all sort of mechanical problems, the hydraulic problems were a small part. Best guess is that the paint job covered  a 100,000 miles on the odometer . Shortly before I got a (perfectly horrible) teaching job the car met the front fender of a pink 1966 Ford whose owner I suspect lacked a license. I did give him a fine opportunity to hit me...

 

So, I was able to get a loan and buy a very nice 1970 DS21 with a perfectly working Citromatic ( hydraulicly operated semi automatic). This was mostly trouble free. It later collided with my limited funds and was sold.

 

There is nothing like a DS.  In many ways no case since has been as advanced and I don't expect that any one will address the same issues that Citroen did. Andre Lefebvre designed the DS, the Traction Avant and the 2CV. He got his start with Gabriel Voisin designing airplanes and then automobiles.

 

The suspension may have made another poster sea sick but the cars stick like a leech. I found out that they were very quick around corners because one never had to downshift or let up on the gas. Rain or snow seemed to make no difference.  Railroad tracks are truly not felt. The car would jack it self up and down for changing tires or oil.

 

 The high pressure brakes in the DS are extremely effective. Full application will nail the car to the pavement NOW.

 

The design is truly logical and the oddities all make sense. The gas mileage  was exceptional for the time . I lived through the gas embargo, which I think was only about 3 weeks in Massachusetts. I  remember being  in  line  for gas only once,

 

Citroen owners and mechanics are few and far between  but are very tight with each other and helpful. Most mechanics are probably best avoided. Get handy and ask for help.

 

 The cars like as lot of attention. My mother  would say that they are like living with a large dog . They rust very quickly once  the rust gets started. The low survival rate explains the general high price of good cars. The hydraulic system is not that hard to understand, but many mechanics couldn't be bothered to lean and did a lot of damage.  The later hydraulic systems using the green LHM fluid are much more reliable   than the earlier brake fluid systems. Some of the earlier cars have been converted. You cannot mix the two kinds of fluid in the Hydraulic system. SMs have the later system.

 

Citroen spent a fortune on the machinery for making the various hydraulic valves and controls. They had trouble with tolerances that would hold pressure  and past just enough fluid to keep things lubricated. The tooling is of course gone and only older parts are available. One of the tests  is for the car to maintain height, or  most of it overnight. I see a lot pictures of cars for sale resting on the ground . This could signify wear in the height correctors or the main accumulator.

 

There is a good string of articles on BAT about working on an SM.

 

The cars are great fun when they are running right. Some times I wish I could afford one now.

 

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

 

John Harley

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by jhh2206
lousy typing (see edit history)

[John348]

4 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

What was the matter with the Cosworth? It seemed like a good idea at the time, a high perf version of a motor they already had, for sporty and luxury cars. I thought it could have been developed and used for years but it only lasted about 2 years, I always wondered why?

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but it was a really early failed attempt at electronic fuel injection, and as you said, and I thought the same "it seemed like a good idea at the time" and it could have been, but....... 

Edited May 14, 2023 by John348 (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:25 PM, Rusty_OToole said:

What was the matter with the Cosworth? It seemed like a good idea at the time, a high perf version of a motor they already had, for sporty and luxury cars. I thought it could have been developed and used for years but it only lasted about 2 years, I always wondered why?

 

 I think the main problem was the sticker price. And even in a Vega chassis still a pretty heavy car compared to what others had on the market . Performance was at least somewhat disappointing , particularly given the retail price. Alfa, Ford in the UK with the Cosworth engine Escorts, and later Cosworth Sierra's. BMW 202 TII etc. seemed to have things better figured out.

 I still think they are very interesting cars , and would consider owning one today. But if I had of had $6000.00 in my pocket in 1975 I am sure I would have chosen something else. In 1975 I had just bought my first MG . A 1965 MGB , under 60,000 miles, and in pretty mint condition for $1050.00. Car is long gone , traded on a nice MGA the next year. But I still have a bunch of the paperwork, tax form etc in my files. $6,000.00 seemed like a huge amount of money to me in 1975.

 And John , you spot on about the early E.F.I.  I understand that if converted to a pair of side draft Webers, a Cosworth Vega engine is both more powerful and a lot easier to live with.

Edited May 16, 2023 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

On 5/10/2023 at 3:56 PM, rocketraider said:

As me Uncle Buck said, the secret to successfully repairing a French car is to learn to swear at it in French. But a Citroen might swear back!

 

I think these Citroen are gorgeous and innovative cars, but can't see myself living with one.

 

Marty Roth has owned at least one of these. He'd have insight.

 

On 5/13/2023 at 3:16 PM, Paul Dobbin said:

Write Marty Roth, Forum member.   He's had several of them an knows and likes them.

I most likely owe my life to the safety elements engineered into our 1967 Citroen DS-21. In late 1970 as I drove +/- 50 mph, a new full sized Mercury crossed the center line of a 4-lane at well over 50 mph, resulting in a Head-On crash. The Mercury was a total loss, and its driver was hospitalized for an extended time. I taught class at Indiana-Purdue Regional Campus that evening, a bit shaken, a bit bruised, but relatively uninjured. My DS-21 functioned as intended. The windshield didn't even break. the single spoke steering wheel protected my chest as the 3-point belt restrained me. The front-wheel-drive trans-axle and (essentially) mid-engine crush zone were pushed under the passenger cage, keeping me from serious injury. The Citroen was towed to a friend who repaired it and passed it along to another enthusiast. The following weekend we flew to New Orleans to buy our next 1967 Citroen DS-21 Pallas, a Belgian LHM Citromatique version. As the years progressed, a third sedan, as well as three D-21 Station Wagons, a 435 cc-engined 1964 2-CV AZAM, a "big-block" 602 cc Ami-6, and ultimately our 1972 SM, replete with the 4-Overhead Camshaft, triple Weber carbureted, Maserati 2.7L V-6 engine and 5-speed stick shift.

 

The hydraulics of Citroen are powered by a single 2200 psi pump and function to operate not only the self-leveling suspension, but also the power steering, power brakes, and control moving the shifting forks and clutch actuation (both of which are time/speed-adjustable anywhere from competition to luxury). Back around 1955, "Uncle" Tom McCahill road tested the newly offered DS-19. Beyond comments of smooth ride and interior comfort, he noted something to the effect of:

In an era when American Detroit's Michigan Mugwumps cannot stop once from their maximum speed without serious brake fade,

(he) took the Citroen to maximum speed near 100 mph a dozen times and never experienced any brake fade.

Explanation:

Citroen designed Inboard Mounted Disc Brakes on the front axle, Not limited by the size of the road wheel, and with fresh air ducts bringing cooling directly to the braking surface. They also wired a hot lead into the brake pad, but the warning light on the dash didn't go on until the pad was sufficiently worn so that the wire grounded out on the rotor - Cheap and effective, when nobody else even bothered with this type of maintenance information. Their 4-cylinder engine was a true "Hemi", and the 4-speed had synchro even on low gear. The ride was/is truly incomparably smooth. The one my friend @Terry Bond rode in must have been an abused or terribly maintained example, as my hundreds of thousands of Citroen miles never ever gave that type result - but then, he has endured and celebrated the idiosyncrasies of vintage British cars (I've endured a few of those as well).

 

Living in today's world, maintaining a Citroen? 

You'll need access to a good parts supply, and advice of those who also love these somewhat exotic examples of automotive masterpiece.

The internet makes that much easier now, compared to 20, 30, 40+ years ago.

If you crave it, If you have a bit of disposable income, If your spouse loves and appreciates you despite your old car addiction  --  Go For It !!

Just don't tell her Marty said it was OK.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Marty Roth
typo, and additional note (see edit history)

[PWN]

Johnny and Marty,

 

I appreciate your detailed, informative,  interesting and fun to read responses. Despite all the information or because of it, I'm still interested in the SM. Approaching 60 and with the sale of one of our well positioned rental houses, I will at some point in the near future be in a position to speculate on a new old daily driver.

 

But in the near future, this summer,I must get my 22 Chandler on the road and sorted. 

 

Thanks again for everyone's interest and responses. 

 

Peter

[Str8-8-Dave]

So my dad, who was a manager in Ford Custom Vehicle OPS in the late 50's early 60's had an assignment to research air suspension for the Lincoln carline.  He hired a defector from the German Luftwaffe, who happened to be a brilliant suspension engineer, his name was Klaus Arning.  One fall night Arning showed up for an office party at our house in Wayne, MI in a 1965 Citroen DS which had air suspension on it and was purchased by Ford as a reference vehicle for my dad's project.  My brother and I thought the car looked pretty weird but Arning, none the less, having had a few belts of Cognac, invited me and my brother Al to go for a ride in the Citroen.  Arning was also an expert at quietly moving through the manual gearbox without using the clutch once we pulled away from the curb and in a couple of long city blocks on southbound Second Street, a 25mph subdivision street, had us up to about 70mph and approaching the notoriously rough second street railroad track.  Arning flipped a switch to raise the car on it's suspension and we sailed over the tracks with amazing smoothness, then let the car back down and got it stopped for the Michigan Avenue light.  For a 14yr old kid that was quite the adventure...

 

Arning later was leveraged by Caroll Shelby to get the AC Cobra MKII, the 427 car Shelby dubbed "the turd" because of it initially evil handling, to handle amazingly well.  Shelby stated Arning did the first Ford suspension system designed on a computer to make the MKII handle like a sports car with the lump of a big block FE engine.

[rocketraider]

Excellent story! That's the type of automotive history I love hearing!

 

Curious what price point the DS/DM was at. I've always assumed they were aimed at the European luxury market. What were their competitors?

[bryankazmer]

A DS 21 Pallas was very much a luxury car in France.  Competition would be the Big Rover 3.5, Mercedes 220/250 (although a DS was faster and bigger), maybe the top Peugeot if you were more conservative.  "DS" in French sounds like the word for "goddess."

The ride is great and the handling is better than the soft suspension makes you think it will be.

 

The SM is more like a XJS

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

So my dad, who was a manager in Ford Custom Vehicle OPS in the late 50's early 60's had an assignment to research air suspension for the Lincoln carline.  He hired a defector from the German Luftwaffe, who happened to be a brilliant suspension engineer, his name was Klaus Arning.  One fall night Arning showed up for an office party at our house in Wayne, MI in a 1965 Citroen DS which had air suspension on it and was purchased by Ford as a reference vehicle for my dad's project.  My brother and I thought the car looked pretty weird but Arning, none the less, having had a few belts of Cognac, invited me and my brother Al to go for a ride in the Citroen.  Arning was also an expert at quietly moving through the manual gearbox without using the clutch once we pulled away from the curb and in a couple of long city blocks on southbound Second Street, a 25mph subdivision street, had us up to about 70mph and approaching the notoriously rough second street railroad track.  Arning flipped a switch to raise the car on it's suspension and we sailed over the tracks with amazing smoothness, then let the car back down and got it stopped for the Michigan Avenue light.  For a 14yr old kid that was quite the adventure...

What convinced me of how refined Citroen suspension is, back in 1973 when the SM was new, I was with my grandfather's accountant who bought one brand new.  There was a notorious set of railway tracks that crossed 137 Avenue alongside Fort Road in Edmonton at a 45 degree angle, with deteriorating wooden approach ramps at the time.    In my mom's '69 Ford Fairlane, one slowed to 10 mph, and hung onto the steering wheel for dear life while crossing those tracks laid out at an angle.   In the SM, with its excellent suspension and self-centering steering, this car basically floated over those nasty tracks.  Don, the owner may have slowed down to 20-25 mph while crossing them, but he only had his one elbow on the wheel which barely moved each direction as each wheel went over, which did make an impression on me at the time.  I did read in later years, SM's were notorious for eating a set of Michelins in a short period of time, but after seeing what this one particular SM could do to suppress road imperfections, I could easily see why an owner would go through a set of tires rather quickly.

 

Craig

[Marty Roth]

Back in the mid-1970s, a member of my carpool invited me to observe their club's upcoming Gymkhana, held on a Sunday at a shopping center parking lot. We drove our 1967 Citroen DS-21 Pallas sedan, and as a lark, chose to enter the competition. To the regret of their fastest guy, my Citroen turned a better time than his Porsche 914/6. I was not invited back to their next event.

 

Driving a hydropneumatically suspended Citroen along a set of railroad tracks rather than just crossing them, you will hear the ties, but not feel them.

Citroen's suspension incorporates non-compressible hydraulic fluid acting against a bladder within a sphere containing nitrogen which IS compressible. The movement of the bladder accounts for the suspension control, and the entire system is self-regulated for height maintenance, but can be overridden with three (3) driving heights, as well as maximum up and down for self-jacking. Raise to maximum height - hang the car's jacking bracket on the peg and release pressure. The opposite side of the car lowers, and the wheels on your side raise off the ground. The supplied wrench for the chrome bolt holding the rear fender removes the entire fender, and is also the lug wrench. Manually lifting the replacement wheel is not necessary since the crankin extension tool also will slide through the wheel's center, allowing you to lever the tire into place. Oh, by the way, the lug wrench also is what allows you to crank start the car if ever needed.

And yes, you can remove a rear wheel, raise the car to maximum, and drive on 3 wheels.

Weirder than that, I once used an equalizer trailer hitch and towed my father-in-law's boat and trailer with no rear wheels on our 1967 DS-21. 

 

Some evening, possibly at Hershey and with significant lubrication courtesy of a well-refined adult beverage, you may be able to get me to relate a memory, told decades ago by a State Trooper. It details how a glamorous, voluptuous young woman driving a Citroen SM on an unopened section of new Interstate highway was able to talk her way out of a ticket, noting that she had (supposedly) slowed to less than 135 mph by the time they got the radar on.

[PWN]

Great stories!

 

I read somewhere that Charles Degaulles credited his Citroen "limo" and its suspension for saving his life during an assassination attempt.

 

Found it.

https://jalopnik.com/this-day-in-history-a-citroen-saves-charles-de-gaulles-1847533029

[Angelfish]

CarShield Monthly Coverage - Extended Vehicle Repair Coverage

[Angelfish]

On 5/14/2023 at 3:01 PM, PWN said:

Johnny and Marty,

 

I appreciate your detailed, informative,  interesting and fun to read responses. Despite all the information or because of it, I'm still interested in the SM. Approaching 60 and with the sale of one of our well positioned rental houses, I will at some point in the near future be in a position to speculate on a new old daily driver.

 

But in the near future, this summer,I must get my 22 Chandler on the road and sorted. 

 

Thanks again for everyone's interest and responses. 

 

Peter

Please keep us updated.  I only have a brief memory of my Dad's DS when I was very small, but I always wish he had kept it.

[Jack Bennett]

It was late 1967, or early 1968, and I was hanging out with some Army friends in the parking lot of our Schweinfurt, Germany military housing area.

I seriously doubt that there can be found a more dedicated group of devout gear heads than some Armor, Infantry, Combat Engineer and Infantry soldiers standing around batting the breeze.

It was such a group, on this day, doing exactly that, when the Citroen cruised into the parking lot, swung into a parking space, and was unas*ed by one of our mutual buddies.

The opportunity was too great, and there was no question regarding which of us would stop the guy and demand a look at his weird looking car.

Collectively, as if of one brain, without a word or a glance, we all moved in the direction of the now parked Citroen, and begin a visual smorgasbord of new things to look at.

I found the suspension system hydraulics to be infectious, and I was immediately taken agape by the number of hoses used to support it.

All in all, even though this was 1967/1968, I could see the same sort of system used to stabilize the gun lay of a main battle tank…….fast forward to 1980, take a look at the M1 Abrams, and feel the sense of deja vu.

Or, look at the article in the Nov-Dec 1923 issue of the Hagerty Drivers Club magazine for a very interesting article on these cars.

Jack

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Jack Bennett (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:12 PM, John348 said:

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but……….

Hi John….."?

I don’t want to sound like an echo, but………

When I read a post, I read it a single syllable at a time, and with the knowledge firmly implanted in my little brain, by a extremely effective elementary school teacher, I use phonetics to shape words.

Depending on the verbosity of the author, the content of the post, and my waning attention span, I assemble the phonetics into a sentence, a paragraph,  and then, a hopefully related, mental image.

And then, in true forum manner, begin my own response……a note here……there cannot be a forum without posts, threads and responses…..to the way I  understand the meaning of what the poster intended  to say.

That does not always happen, or I simply wish to add to, or take away from the thought which the post hopes to convey to ALL who reads it.

Remember, if I don’t respond the thread just dies and nobody gets to add their own thoughts, and a post/thread which becomes rhetorical or simply repeats a topic over and over, soon becomes boring.

So, my compliment to your skills as a grammatical super star is to “hi-jack your thread and keep it alive.

Remembering that you are perfectly free to reclaim your post/thread at any time, and nothing I can post will change your original post.

Strange, what I just said brings King Tut, his tomb, and his mummy to mind.

Jack

[Xander Wildeisen]

I spent a little time on one.

[arcticbuicks]

i knew one person who had one citroen in the 1980s and it was maybe 10 years old,very strange car,he asked me one to work on it and i looked it over.......and no thanks ...i said.......in looking  it over ......i compared it to the troublesome rolls royce of the 1970s......with the shared suspension system design......and just too much unconventional equipment ......the rolls had the most troublesome brake system interconnected with the suspension also.

[PWN]

I am keeping an eye on BAT and Hemmings....a wells sorted SM with necessary replacements (among other things replacement of sodium filled valves) sold in Oct for around 33,000.