'72 Riv GS -> Body Tag -> Paint code?!

[Matthias]

Hi

 

my name is Matthias, I am living in Europe and since approx. one year I am searching for a '71/'72 Riv. So far, the majority of my Riv knowledge is based on countless hours of reading, internet research and talking to as many knowledgeable people as possible.

 

Now I am facing the possibiltiy to buy a '72 Riv GS from one of those lovely people. I spend half of the weekend with the inspection of the car. Actually everything is fine, the car comes with a lot of documentation and it is very well maintained. Price is not cheap but fair.

 

There is just one question mark. When checking the Body Tag, it states as color paint code "18". Based on my knowledge this reflects in year 1972 the color "Charcoal Mist", so meaning somehow grayish. The issue is: The car is pure black (what should be the color code 19).

 

There is not a single hint that the car has been repainted from "Charcoal Mist" into black. Unfortunately the original dealer invoice does not exists any more. The owner assures credibly that during none of his restoration sessions he noticed any signs of another original color that is different to black.

 

Could anybody imagine an explanation for the mismatch between Paint Code and real paint color? Do GS versions differ in there body tag coding from non-GS Rivs? Or could it be a simple mistake?

 

Thank you very much for your support

Matthias

 

P.S.: As soon as my dream come true owning a '71/'72 Riv, I will become immediately a member of the ROA - 100% no doubt 👍

[Pat Curran]

The data plate should be affixed to the cowl by rivets, not Phillips head screws.  Make sure it is correct for the car.  

[MikeJS]

Good day.

 

I tend to be a first get Riv' guy, but I was just on the ROA website, and had a quick look at the info on the website for the '72 colours charts. This screenshot indicates that black was not offered for exterior in '72...??

 

Also, agree with Pat, ^ that the screwed on data plate should be somewhat of a concern, at least it would be on this side of the pond. Can't imagine why it would be different for export vehicles...

 

Later,

 

EDIT: "A19-Regal Black" appears to be on the '70-'71 and'73 Riv... but not '72...

 

EDIT 2: In the March/April Review, there is a comparison of the 71-72, and the three vertical front cornering lights appear to indicate this is a '71 not a '72. ('72 apparently went to a single amber vertical light) Probably another red flag if the seller is selling it as a '72... (or maybe I just stick to first gen stuff...)

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by MikeJS (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

I know of at least 2 original paint 72s that are black. Have you confirmed VIN has the W. Engine code is WA, rear axle is 3.42 ratio?

If a car is stripped and media blasted during restoration there will be no evidence of the original color but rarely does a shop take the time to repaint body color to everything that is unseen after assembly as factory. So there will be evidence either from old color or lack of color where it should be. Does seller have pics of the restoration during process start to finish?  

I would be way more concerned in making sure its a legitimate GS than original body color. A black GS has greater appeal than charcoal IMO.

Edited April 4, 2023 by JZRIV (see edit history)

[EmTee]

The car may have been involved in a front-end collision prior to the restoration.  Perhaps it was rebuilt using the front clip from a '71 (hence the front marker lamps).  What does the grille look like?  A '72 should have an egg-crate grille.

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[MikeJS]

2 hours ago, JZRIV said:

know of at least 2 original paint 72s that are black.

Jason, good day.

 

The chart found on the Old Manual Project from a 1972 colour chart seems to indicate that black was available but at an extra charge so chances are they are/were out in the wild.... If correct maybe the ROA website needs an asterisk... A few more pics for distinct spotting features of this '72 (versus a '71) may be in order to determine if indeed this is a 'rare' black '72 or a misrepresented '71...

 

http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Buick/1972_Buick/1972 Buick Exterior Colors Chart/index1.html

Edited April 4, 2023 by MikeJS (see edit history)

[EmTee]

Based on the chart above, PNT "B" would indicate Stratomist Blue, which would have been a special order?  The chart shows Skylark/GS only...

 

Also funny that the "688" trim code is listed as '71 on the ROA site.  Maybe an early '72?  Date code "11C" would be 3rd week of November 1971, correct?

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Matthias]

Thank you all for your tremendous support 🙏!

 

So far, the other (obvious) characteristics for a GS are fullfilled, including "W" as 5th digit in VIN. But I do not have the engine code stamp yet.

 

I contacted Sloan Museum last night and they already replied that they have the documentation for that specific car 👏. So hopefully in very few days I know much more. 

 

As it might be interesting for you, I attach few addition pictures.

[Matthias]

In the meantime I received a GM color chart from 1972 by PM. My conclusion is that nothing was set in stone during these years when it was about black color code 😉.

[JZRIV]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

Based on the chart above, PNT "B" would indicate Stratomist Blue, which would have been a special order?  The chart shows Skylark/GS only...

 

Also funny that the "688" trim code is listed as '71 on the ROA site.  Maybe an early '72?  Date code "11C" would be 3rd week of November 1971, correct?

 

Hi Tim,

Pretty sure 72 used the same design cornering lamps in as 71. I'm sure someone will correct if wrong. Certainly more investigation needs done on this car to figure out how it left the factory  but aside from that it sure does look nice! More pics would help us for sure especially with interior 688! 

 

[MikeJS]

1 hour ago, JZRIV said:

Pretty sure 72 used the same design cornering lamps in as 71.

Good day

 

As mentioned, I made the comment regarding the cornering lamps based on the article in the current Riview…

 

This may have been a mid-production change, I have no idea, but just mentioned it as I was reading the Riview when the topic was started.

 

[Pat Curran]

1 hour ago, MikeJS said:

Good day

 

As mentioned, I made the comment regarding the cornering lamps based on the article in the current Riview…

 

This may have been a mid-production change, I have no idea, but just mentioned it as I was reading the Riview when the topic was started.

 

I was a bit confused by the comparison in the Riview.  One car has the cornering light option while the other doesn’t.  Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.  What’s the point?

Edited April 4, 2023 by Pat Curran
Update content (see edit history)

[MikeJS]

3 hours ago, Pat Curran said:

I was a bit confused by the comparison in the Riview.  One car has the cornering light option while the other doesn’t.  Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.  What’s the point?

Pat, good day.

 

I apologize if I added/brought confusion to this thread, sometimes, I just believe what I read, and sometimes just try to help.

 

 Now that I've done a few more images searches, it does appear that a number of high quality '72s have the three vertical lamps, while some have a single. Again, this gen Riv' is outside my realm, but assuming that the three vertical cornering lights were an option in both years, maybe the Riview article is simply comparing the writer's two Riv's ('71-72) specifically and the variations between each of them as opposed to making a general statement about the two years' variations as a whole. I read it as the latter. Some variations (I think) apply to all cars such as the louves and grille, others obviously (maybe) not.

 

Again, in hindsight, I probably shouldn't even be in this thread adding to the confusion, (it does look like a nice car) but the screwed on data plate certainly peaked my interest in what appeared to be (not saying it is...) someone trying to pass off a Riv that it's not.

 

But now that I'm here, one other thing seems odd in my (ahem) extensive google search of this generation. In the above ^^ engine bay photo, the two bars that V out from the firewall to the fenders, are these common on the '72? I see a lot of '73's with 'em, but I've yet to find a '72 image (sans above) that have these two bars. 

 

Again, it looks like a great car, and at the end of the day, it is what it is and probably nice and very cool to drive, but as always, ...caveat emptor...(buyer be-Aware)

 

Later,

 

 

 

[bob71GS]

On 4/3/2023 at 4:00 PM, Matthias said:

Hi

 

my name is Matthias, I am living in Europe and since approx. one year I am searching for a '71/'72 Riv. So far, the majority of my Riv knowledge is based on countless hours of reading, internet research and talking to as many knowledgeable people as possible.

 

Now I am facing the possibiltiy to buy a '72 Riv GS from one of those lovely people. I spend half of the weekend with the inspection of the car. Actually everything is fine, the car comes with a lot of documentation and it is very well maintained. Price is not cheap but fair.

 

There is just one question mark. When checking the Body Tag, it states as color paint code "18". Based on my knowledge this reflects in year 1972 the color "Charcoal Mist", so meaning somehow grayish. The issue is: The car is pure black (what should be the color code 19).

 

There is not a single hint that the car has been repainted from "Charcoal Mist" into black. Unfortunately the original dealer invoice does not exists any more. The owner assures credibly that during none of his restoration sessions he noticed any signs of another original color that is different to black.

 

Could anybody imagine an explanation for the mismatch between Paint Code and real paint color? Do GS versions differ in there body tag coding from non-GS Rivs? Or could it be a simple mistake?

 

Thank you very much for your support

Matthias

 

P.S.: As soon as my dream come true owning a '71/'72 Riv, I will become immediately a member of the ROA - 100% no doubt 👍

 

[EmTee]

So, now I'm thinking the paint code on the tag does equate to black.

 

 

I was using the "B" as the color code, but I also see "18" in front of the "B".  The 1972 Buick chart above (excerpt below) shows code "18" (Regal Black) as a Riviera-only color.

 

[MikeJS]

2 minutes ago, EmTee said:

So, now I'm thinking the paint code on the tag does equate to black.

Good catch…

[bob71GS]

I have attached a picture from my 71 GS that is all original. As you can see the type of factory screws that attach the data plate. They were not riveted From looking at the picture you sent, the screws are not factory correct.  The paint code is 18 which should  be charcoal mist. Now according to the production #'s 565 72 Riv's were painted black code #19. 

 

You state the vin has a "W" in the vin, but the seller has not provided you the engine code. The engine code for 72 GS should be "WA".  I also noticed the engine appears to be black when it should be red. Someone has also messed with the fuel line as I see a separate fuel filter, but no fuel line. 

 

I'm surprised that no one caught that the front bumper is from a 71 as the 72's had the white rubber strip. 

 

IMO, there appears to be many discrepancies, that the seller may be trying to sell you a fake GS. Being that you live in Europe, I would hate for you to get scammed. 

[WildcatMN]

Agree with Bob, I have attached photos of a tag for a 72 GS Riviera in black and also a photo of the engine compartment so you can see some differences. 

[EmTee]

The A/C compressor pulley looks suspicious also.  If the car has a 3.42 axle it should have the large pulley, as above (detail below).

 

 

The car in question appears to have the smaller pulley.  This doesn't prove it isn't a GS, as the compressor could have been replaced, but is cause for further investigation...

 

[steelman]

And It seems to have an aftermarket aluminum radiator. Missed that until EmTee blew up the a/c pulley for all to see.

[Matthias]

 

I would like to thank you all again for your support. You are a great community and it is an honor for me as Newbie that I am allowed to post my questions here 🙏.

 

@MikeJS: No problem at all that you referred to the current Riview and the comparison. I perceived it as additional, maybe important, information. Always appreciated!

 

@bob71GS and @WildcatMN: There is nothing better than some reliable pictures for comparison - great that you posted them!

 

@EmTee: Eagles eyes 🧐 - wow! I put that fact on my list for things to be clarified.

 

Maybe some more background information in order to avoid a wrong impression. The car is not officially for sale. I met a collector last year who owns (amongst others) that Riv since 2012. I gave him a call last month and asked if he could imagine to sell it. Last weekend we met in person and the pictures were taken by me personally. There is no hurry and whatever I like to know I am clarifying with the owner. He has a whole folder of documentation including original title, endless invoices, etc.

 

Your remarks are helping me to raise the right questions 👍.

 

I am keeping you updated! Already looking forward to the data from Sloan Museum ...

[Matthias]

1 hour ago, EmTee said:

The A/C compressor pulley looks suspicious also.  If the car has a 3.42 axle it should have the large pulley, as above (detail below).

 

 

Is there any possibility to identify a 3.42 axle without dismantling everything? A stamp or something similar?

[Pat Curran]

12 hours ago, bob71GS said:

I have attached a picture from my 71 GS that is all original. As you can see the type of factory screws that attach the data plate. They were not riveted From looking at the picture you sent, the screws are not factory correct.  The paint code is 18 which should  be charcoal mist. Now according to the production #'s 565 72 Riv's were painted black code #19. 

 

You state the vin has a "W" in the vin, but the seller has not provided you the engine code. The engine code for 72 GS should be "WA".  I also noticed the engine appears to be black when it should be red. Someone has also messed with the fuel line as I see a separate fuel filter, but no fuel line. 

 

I'm surprised that no one caught that the front bumper is from a 71 as the 72's had the white rubber strip. 

 

IMO, there appears to be many discrepancies, that the seller may be trying to sell you a fake GS. Being that you live in Europe, I would hate for you to get scammed. 

Bob, thanks for pointing out that screws were used instead of rivets.  I don’t want to provide misinformation.  But as you noted as well, the screws in this case were not installed at the factory and that is what caught my eye.

[Barney Eaton]

If the data plate was screwed to the cowl,  don't you think they would have use the same screw? 

[MikeJS]

25 minutes ago, Matthias said:

He has a whole folder of documentation including original title, endless invoices, etc.

Having the provenance is always great to know what the car was. What the car is today, may be a different story. Knowing how difficult some parts are to get here, I suspect to keep the car running in Europe, the old adage of 'necessity is the mother of invention' comes into play a great deal. (Just ask the guys down-under) so what should/could/would be on an original GS, may have been changed out just to keep the car running with whatever parts were available. As mentioned, at the end of the day, it still looks like a nice car. Good luck, keep us posted.

 

Later,

 

[EmTee]

7 hours ago, Matthias said:

Is there any possibility to identify a 3.42 axle without dismantling everything? A stamp or something similar?

Beginning with the '72 model the VIN included the letter "W" to indicate that the car was equipped with the optional Stage 1 engine.  The GS option included the engine a well as the ride and handling package and posi rear axle with a 3.42 ratio.

 

There is a code stamped on the rear axle housing.  On the 2nd generation cars ('66 - '70) the code was "PY".

 

 

I'm not sure whether it remained "PY" for '72.  In any case, it is easy to tell whether the car has a positraction differential if both rear wheels are jacked up off the ground (as with a floor jack centered under the carrier housing).  If one wheel is turned by hand and the opposite wheel spins in the same direction, then it is a limited-slip differential.  If turning one wheel causes the opposite wheel to spin in the opposite direction, then it is an open differential.  A positraction differential may also have a tag on the cover similar to the one below, but lack of a tag doesn't mean it isn't positraction, as the tag may have been discarded.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by EmTee (see edit history)

[JZRIV]

22 hours ago, Matthias said:

 

Is there any possibility to identify a 3.42 axle without dismantling everything? A stamp or something similar?

Yes, According to the 72 shop manual : Look for the letters QAO stamped on right axle tube towards top very near to the differential casting. QAO = 3.42 Limited slip

[EmTee]

Thanks Jason, I looked for that information but came up empty.

 

Determining whether the car is a true GS is easier in this case, since the VIN would include the "W" code.  All of the discussion regarding the other GS-related equipment simply helps establish how original or complete the car is as it sits today.  The OP states the car isn't technically for sale yet, but all of the information provided above will allow negotiation of a fair price if, or when the car does go on sale.  The objective here is to allow an informed assessment of condition.

[Matthias]

@EmTee and @JZRIV: Great, thank you very much!

 

I was able to clarify the majority of questions in the meantime:

- Yes, WA engine code is there

- Indeed, the A/C compressor pulley was changed from large pulley to the smaller one when the A/C was converted to R134A. The compressor itself is the original one.

- The V-bars were installed in recent years (to my knowledge, the '72 Riv did not come with this feature, only the '73). But they are original GM stock.

- The engine is completely overhauled. When this was done, the red/brown paint was removed. The engine block itself was x-rayed in addition to discover any hidden defects. The related x-ray films are available (4 horizontal and 4 vertical shots).

- The cold start feature (hope that's the correct term) is currently deactivated. But I could convince myself that the engine was running very smooth from the first moment onwards (although it is currently really cold here). The engine comes with an Edelbrock carburetor that was installed in the course of the engine overhaul.   

[EmTee]

3 minutes ago, Matthias said:

The cold start feature (hope that's the correct term) is currently deactivated. But I could convince myself that the engine was running very smooth from the first moment onwards (although it is currently really cold here). The engine comes with an Edelbrock carburetor that was installed in the course of the engine overhaul. 

Glad to hear that the owner was able to provide that information.  The one thing I'd change if it were mine would be the aftermarket carburetor.  Finding a correct Quadrajet will take some effort, particularly in Germany, but that's something that can be addressed while you're enjoying the car with the replacement carburetor.  It sounds like a nice Riviera -- hopefully you're eventually able to convince the owner that it belongs in your garage! 

[Matthias]

He is definitely a walking library 😊. Calls are taking easily 1-2 hours when he starts explaining all technical details. 

 

In addition I got the information from Sloan Museum yesterday:

The options that were ordered originally I find also in the car. No additional options but also not less options.

 

Only this bit of confusion about the color remains ... but I am closer now @JZRIV's statement from the beginning: In the end the color is not the most crucial topic of the whole car. 

[EmTee]

Does the Sloan information say anything about the color?  As an aside, AACA judging does not deduct for color, as long as it is one of the available colors for the year/make/model.

[Matthias]

Yes, actually the identical topic from my very first post: Charcoal Mist Gray instead of Regal Black, all the rest is consistent.

[Matthias]

On 4/4/2023 at 6:00 PM, JZRIV said:

Hi Tim,

Pretty sure 72 used the same design cornering lamps in as 71. I'm sure someone will correct if wrong. Certainly more investigation needs done on this car to figure out how it left the factory  but aside from that it sure does look nice! More pics would help us for sure especially with interior 688! 

 

Hi Jason,

I overread your request initially - sorry for that! Attached an interior picture. 

Kind regards,

Matthias

[carbking]

Another vote for installing the correct original Rochester carburetor as soon as possible.

 

Is the clone currently on the car one of the Rochester clones or the Carter clones?

 

If a Carter clone, was the original intake retained and the clone installed on top of an adapter, or was an aftermarket intake installed?

 

Jon

[MikeJS]

10 hours ago, Matthias said:

Only this bit of confusion about the color remains ...

Good day.

 

As mentioned, colour is not the crucial topic, but if it was me I would want to figure it out as best I could, or at least come up with a plausible explanation.

 

And since I'm a little bored, based on a couple more searches, it may be some form of an GM/plant error in terms of which paint chart was being used when that car was being painted. I found a chart very similar to the one you posted ^^ except two colours have different, numbers. Surprisingly, Charcoal Mist and Regal Black codes have been changed/corrected?? Regal Black at the bottom of your chart ^^ was listed as 18, (which would match your data plate) but in the chart I just found it is was now code 19. If there was some way to prove this error, your car in question may be even rarer if the production numbers Pat posted about the 565 Black '72s that were ALL coded 19 Regal Black, and this one lone Regal Black is coded 18... One-of things can be pretty rare... (don't mention it to the Owner, it may add to his perception of value... 😊)

 

If any of that makes sense, maybe it adds another page to this car's story...

 

Fun stuff, gotta love a mystery...

 

Later,

 

Edited April 6, 2023 by MikeJS (see edit history)

[Chimera]

Color is of increased importance IMO. To know rarity and hence potential impact on value and originality. 

[Rivdrivn]

I know for a fact that mistakes were occasionally made on the data plates. For example, I have a ’69 Riv that was coded as being gold but I’ve known the car since it was new and it has always been green.

[RivNut]

On 4/5/2023 at 8:36 AM, MikeJS said:

Having the provenance is always great to know what the car was. What the car is today, may be a different story. Knowing how difficult some parts are to get here, I suspect to keep the car running in Europe, the old adage of 'necessity is the mother of invention' comes into play a great deal. (Just ask the guys down-under) so what should/could/would be on an original GS, may have been changed out just to keep the car running with whatever parts were available. As mentioned, at the end of the day, it still looks like a nice car. Good luck, keep us posted.

 

Later,

 

Good point.  Take a look at the classic American cars still on the road in Cuba.  Most of them are now running Russian built diesel engines from Ladas and Volgas. On one of the other Buick forums there is a sub-forum dedicated to Classic American cars in Cuba.

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by RivNut
Added link (see edit history)