edinmass Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 No tools= sorted car! 👍👍👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock10 Posted July 23, 2022 Share Posted July 23, 2022 I'll have a hot fudge sundae. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 6 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said: When we pulled back in the drive there is almost 53 miles on the odometer since last Friday. That's the way - 50 becomes 100, then 500, then 1000... 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 In talking with another early Buick friend (he has a 1918 4-Cylinder with a cone clutch) he told me that a person can expect these newly lined clutch cones to take a little time to get 'seated' in. I had not thought about that angle before. It makes sense when you stop and think about it. I felt like I knew how to drive this car and that it would only take a few times and I'd be right back where I was all those years ago. That got thrown right out the window. The slight pause that I was used to between 1st and 2nd and 2nd and 3rd is totally gone. I start out in 1st and get the car moving, push the clutch pedal down and shove it right into 2nd gear. Do the same thing going into 3rd gear. There is no gear clash and a smooth shift is the result. The only thing that really causes a slight problem is the backward shift pattern that Buick used. A person really needs to be mindful of this and then it becomes business as usual to drive the car. I was very pleased with the way the car ran right down the road today given the fact that the thermometer was pushing 100 degrees here. Hopefully when it does cool down it might run even better - we will certainly find out when that happens. With the front end being nice and tight it runs right down the road without all of the back and forth on the steering wheel. The car really is a pleasure to drive and I look forward to every time I take it out. And Ed, by no means is the car completely sorted out. I expect to be messing with it for some time to come to get it anywhere near close to done. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Terry, If you read the manual, that is exactly how they tell you to shift. No messing around with double clutching. The coarse pitch of the gears and such makes it possible and easy. You just have to get the hang of it. Quickly really means quickly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 (edited) 56 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said: Terry, If you read the manual, that is exactly how they tell you to shift. No messing around with double clutching. The coarse pitch of the gears and such makes it possible and easy. You just have to get the hang of it. Quickly really means quickly. Today almost everyone tries to over rev an engine when shifting. You only need first gear to get going on a hill. Small displacement cars need first to get rolling………find second as soon as possible……..drive the torque of the car…….don’t wind it out. My 17 White in Florida never uses first since it’s so flat. 98 percent of the time you should be driving your pre war car in direct or third……….also, downshifting them is a bad idea for normal driving……time yourself at stop lights as to arrive when green if at all possible…….these cars were made when stopping was literally not that common at any intersection. Every time I get into a new car I always try and adapt to it…….quickly……..the problem isn’t the car……it’s the operator. Edited July 24, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history) 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 Don, You said it much better than I did. I started out trying to drive the car like I remembered I did. That just does not work anymore! No Way No How. I got it down now and there doesn't seem to be any problems. It's all good now. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 If the shift timing is that different, you probably have heavier oil in the transmission than you did then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 Bloo, When I cleaned out the transmission case and went back in with the 600w gear oil I also added 2 tablespoons of #2 Flake Graphite. There is the possibility that the new gear oil is heavier than what came out. I am thinking at this point that the new leather clutch cone lining probably has a lot to do with what is going on now. Getting more and more miles on the car is going to tell me a lot about what I don't know right now. All that I can say right now is that I have learned just how to drive and shift and keep things from clashing and this is a very good thing. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 Edinmass hit the nail on the head. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 29 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said: Bloo, When I cleaned out the transmission case and went back in with the 600w gear oil I also added 2 tablespoons of #2 Flake Graphite. There is the possibility that the new gear oil is heavier than what came out. I am thinking at this point that the new leather clutch cone lining probably has a lot to do with what is going on now. Getting more and more miles on the car is going to tell me a lot about what I don't know right now. All that I can say right now is that I have learned just how to drive and shift and keep things from clashing and this is a very good thing. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Actually, 600W thickens with age; after 20 years or so, it seems to be half again as thick as when fresh out of the container. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 24, 2022 Share Posted July 24, 2022 (edited) Terry what sort of trouble are you having with the cone clutch? When you described it as "smooth" I almost commented "there must be something wrong with it", but I would have been kidding. Cone clutches are famous for being so grabby they are almost impossible to drive, and the one in my 1913 Studebaker lives up to the reputation. It gets regularly treated with neatsfoot oil. That makes it almost driveable. The lubricant in the Studebaker's sliding gear transmission is some godawful glop that approximates a type reputedly used in the brass era (1500 weight?). It was mixed up in the late 70s from some recipe published in the HCCA gazette. Due to the drag of that lubricant (I think) you almost cant shift fast enough. By shifting fast enough, I do not refer to engine speed and shifting early as @edinmass was (he is right), but getting from one gear to the next, as in @DonMicheletti's post. Back in the 70s before the heavy glop, the Studebaker had SAE90 in it and since reading your post I am trying to remember if the shift timing was drastically different but I think it was. The SAE90 leaked out very quickly as the Studebaker's transmission apparently has no seals, and in any event was not intended for oil that light. Downshifting would probably be easier with lighter oil, I think. Maybe one of these days I will test that. I believe you mentioned a clutch brake. I was under the impression that those exist to help a driver deal with the drag of a multiple-disc wet clutch. You really need it in that case. How do you use that with a cone clutch? Edited July 24, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 24, 2022 Author Share Posted July 24, 2022 Bloo, I'm not really having any trouble with the clutch. It is me just learning how to drive this car all over again. Here is what I have learned and learned very well so far. To shift the transmission into 1st, or low gear, the vehicle must be at a dead standstill. Slips right into gear with no problems. Taking off in low gear you only need to go about 50 feet. As Don says quickly means really quick - no gear clash whatsoever. Moving in 2nd gear a person repeats the shifting process to go to 3rd gear. Again, no gear clash whatsoever. I'm finding out that if I'm a bit hesitant on getting off the clutch pedal it will shudder a little bit. Otherwise all the shifts are smooth and non eventful. As of this afternoon we have 65 miles on the odometer, and that's just since last Friday. The next matter is to get the seepage from the sight gauge on the dashboard stopped. If no one has ever told you this, then let me be the first to enlighten everybody on here. ONE NEVER GETS IN A HURRY DRIVING ONE OF THESE AUTOMOBILES. Take your time and enjoy the scenery going by. It will get you there and you will arrive in style. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 7 hours ago, Bloo said: I believe you mentioned a clutch brake. I was under the impression that those exist to help a driver deal with the drag of a multiple-disc wet clutch. You really need it in that case. How do you use that with a cone clutch? Bloo, my 1918 and 1925 Pierces have clutch brakes; the 1918 has a cone clutch done in Kevlar by previous owner and I like it (many hate Kevlar) and the 1925 Series 80 has a single conventional disc. It seems to me that the value of the clutch brake is to minimize clash when placing the car in gear, usually 1st or reverse, at rest with the engine running. The clutch stops spinning, and so does the transmission input shaft that is splined to it, facilitating the smooth movement of the square-cut gears. In both of these cars, the clutch brake is engaged by pushing the clutch pedal all the way down to the toeboard. The engagement point is adjustable, more easily on the 1918. You do NOT want the clutch brake to operate when you're underway, so it takes some practice, at least for me, to get in the habit of pushing the clutch about one inch shy of the toeboard when going to 2nd, 3rd, (and for the 1918), 4th. Remembering becomes automatic when driving the car on a tour, for example; the embarrassment comes when I drive it for the first time after a few weeks of driving other iron. BTW, the Kevlar clutch is very smooth, if a tad abrupt, in forward motion; the customary grabbing only occurs in reverse on my car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) It was noticed by one of the sharp eyed, Pre-War Buick enthusiasts that in the one video that we posted showing the dashboard of the '16 that the ammeter was showing 18-20 charging amps. That is a bit on the high output side for running in the daytime. I spoke with Rex Curtiss and asked him about this. He told me that it wouldn't hurt the Starter/Generator but that it could be a little hard on the battery. With that said I decided to set the third brush back to a charge rate of around 10-12 amps. This is still enough to run the lights when driving the car with the lights on and still put a little back into the battery. I have included the Delco Instruction Sheet for setting the charging rate on the '16's Starter/Generator. I hope that this might be of help to anyone with the Model 70 Delco Unit. When we scanned these pages we had them all oriented in the left to right reading position. Do not know why Page #2 went the way it did. Hopefully the reader can do something about that to make it easier to read. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Edited July 28, 2022 by Terry Wiegand ADDITIONAL INFORMATION (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 If anyone out there can correct the #2 photo to read right, I sure would appreciate it (Larry Schramm - are you out there my man?!) Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 Neil, Thank you very much for helping to correct this situation. It seems like everyone is more computer savvy than I am. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 Good to have instructions on the starter motor generator brushes. Printed and saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 28, 2022 Author Share Posted July 28, 2022 The Delco Starter/Generator Units changed with each model year change on Buick automobiles. The Starter/Generator Unit used on Buick Models 44, 45, 47, 49, and 50 for 1918 was a #117. What I scanned and posted here is specifically for the 1916/1917 Buicks. This is still good information for the early Buick enthusiasts to have access to. The Delco #117 unit was also used on Models 34, 35, and the E-4 Truck. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 You are correct: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckfmtexas Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) Terry, congrats on the car being finished and drivable. As a new owner of a 1921 Model 45 I have gone back and read your threads from the beginning and learned an incredible amount of knowledge from you and the other folks who have shared their knowledge about Buicks this old. I have to get the steering column back in mine after I had it rebuilt and when I installed it there was something backward as you turned the steering shaft to the right and the wheels turned to the left and vice versa. I sent it back to the rebuilder and I need to get in back in and be sure it all works right. Then I can begin driving the car and enjoying it as you are with yours. You have created a wonderful story from start through today and I know there is more to come. Great work and keep the updates coming. Chuck Nixon Fort Worth Edited July 29, 2022 by chuckfmtexas (see edit history) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 29, 2022 Author Share Posted July 29, 2022 Chuck, Thank You for the kind words and encouragement. You are right, just because the car is running well and drivable doesn't mean the story ends here. As it has been pointed out to me, I will be messing with this car for quite some time to come. There is a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction on my part in watching that engine come to life after the starter pedal is pushed. I am reasonably certain that the rebuilder of your steering gear got the half nuts in backward. Nothing damaging, but it will have to come apart again to be corrected. I'm taking the car to East Moline next month to get its 100 year medallion from the AACA and then the Red Flag Tour is coming up the last weekend in September. Please keep this thought in mind - I do not have all the answers and I have had some fantastic help all along the way. This is what has made this restoration so much fun and so rewarding at this point. As one friend has told me several times -"keep it between the ditches". Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) There’s an important lesson to learn here………cars can and often are very difficult slogs…….doing the engine twice, insane and unpredictable problems……….but if you keep your head about you, and keep moving forward…..you eventually get to the end. The reward is ten times better than most people realize. Jumping in a 110 year old car that functions as new, and is reliable brings a joy to one’s heart that is impossible to describe unless you have experienced it……I have, many times. It never gets old…….from a Model,T to a Model J great cars done well are a pure joy……….all that’s left is…….”Drive it like you stole it!” Edited July 30, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 We are getting the car ready to take over to Douglas Photographic's Studio on Saturday. Ric and I talked about what we want to do with the car image-wise when we have it on the turntable. We both feel that it would really be nice to get photos with ALL of the side curtains in place. As is shown in this photo, the middle set is in place and we will put the front ones in once we have the car where we want it. Barbara brought up a very interesting question while we were working with these. She wondered about back in the day when these cars were new and driven daily, HOW did people get in and out of this car when it was raining a pretty good clip? She said that her question was just about the front seat passengers. Then she went on to ask about the back seat passengers. She asked about how the fasteners were turned on the outside once the person(s) were inside the car? Beats the daylights outta me. Maybe somebody on here could enlighten us both. I really had not thought about this until she started asking the questions and we were putting them in place. Bill Krause out in New Jersey lent us the original curtains from his 1916 D-45 to use as visual patterns when Gary was making our new ones. I am now wondering just how things were done back in the day. This should be an enlightening discussion. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted August 3, 2022 Author Share Posted August 3, 2022 I put 8 miles on the car this morning and checked out the work that I did the last few days. I set the third brush on the generator back to where it is charging at 10 amps. I feel a lot more comfortable with this rate. This should protect the battery from an overcharged condition. I also took the sight gauge on the dash apart and cleaned everything so as to be free from any oil residue. I then used this EZ TURN sealer on each piece when it went back together. I am here to tell the whole world that this stuff works!! No more seepage or fitting leaks. I am also here to say that when using this stuff you will get it on your hands. I should have used the Nitrile gloves (I got in a hurry) to keep the fingers free of this goo, but I didn't and I am here to tell everyone that it is a nightmare to get off of your hands. Gasoline won't touch it, Kerosene, Acetone, and Turpentine is useless. It took about an hour with water as hot as I could stand, Lava Soap, and a small piece of ScotchBrite to finally get my hands cleaned up and free from this gooey stuff. All that I can say is if you have an oil seepage issue, this is what you want - just don't get it on your skin anywhere. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 3, 2022 Share Posted August 3, 2022 HOW did people get in and out of this car when it was raining a pretty good clip? Simple in 1916 people were still hard as nails, and didn't cry about being hot, cold, or wet. Simply put.....we are spoiled and soft today. Car looks great. Be sure to get photos without the spare tire cover on it.........looks good, but looks better with no cover in my humble opinion. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted August 3, 2022 Share Posted August 3, 2022 (edited) 21 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said: I put 8 miles on the car this morning and checked out the work that I did the last few days. I set the third brush on the generator back to where it is charging at 10 amps. I feel a lot more comfortable with this rate. This should protect the battery from an overcharged condition. I also took the sight gauge on the dash apart and cleaned everything so as to be free from any oil residue. I then used this EZ TURN sealer on each piece when it went back together. I am here to tell the whole world that this stuff works!! No more seepage or fitting leaks. I am also here to say that when using this stuff you will get it on your hands. I should have used the Nitrile gloves (I got in a hurry) to keep the fingers free of this goo, but I didn't and I am here to tell everyone that it is a nightmare to get off of your hands. Gasoline won't touch it, Kerosene, Acetone, and Turpentine is useless. It took about an hour with water as hot as I could stand, Lava Soap, and a small piece of ScotchBrite to finally get my hands cleaned up and free from this gooey stuff. All that I can say is if you have an oil seepage issue, this is what you want - just don't get it on your skin anywhere. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 The lowest I can get my 1923 starter/generator output set to is 10 amps at cruising speed. No complaints, Jason Smith of AER rebuilt it and did a wonderful job. http://www.aerrebuild.com This 10 amps was still too much and caused me battery issues on day long tours. You may be okay for shorter trips and then the vehicle sitting. My solution on tour is to run the spot light which I updated with a 6V halogen lantern bulb. It draws 8 amps, is super bright, I now have a day time running light for safety and my net charge is a battery friendly 2 amps. Edited August 4, 2022 by Brian_Heil (see edit history) 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted August 3, 2022 Share Posted August 3, 2022 A long time ago my dad toild me about running with headlights on to not overcharge the battery. I didnt really understand that until I had my '31 Buick with the third brush and I adjusted it high to accomodate the headlights being on....and burned out the generator. On my '18 Buick I have it set it as low as possible (I never drive at night with it). I really dont care about the battery, I can get one of those easily. However NAPA is just plum out of starter / generator parts! I dont want to torch that. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted August 3, 2022 Author Share Posted August 3, 2022 I have the third brush set at the lowest possible position and I am still running 10 amps. This is almost half of what it had been. Like Brian, I could run the spotlight and tell everyone that it's my daytime running light. The next time I drive the car I will try that and see what the ammeter shows. Ed, Thanks for the compliments on the car. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted August 3, 2022 Share Posted August 3, 2022 Just change out the shunt, and knock the amperage down..........I'm guessing it has one........do you have a diagram of the generator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted August 6, 2022 Author Share Posted August 6, 2022 We had the Buick in Wichita early this morning at Douglas Photographic. It was agreed by everyone to get this done early in the day to try and avoid the 106 degree temperature that hit us this afternoon. Ric did his usual magic with the camera and shot a nice video at the end. We told him to take his time in putting everything together and that there was no hurry. What you are looking at here is just a small portion of the photos that were taken. The ol' gal sets up pretty well when everything is taken into account. Hope you enjoy the pics. Terry and Barbara Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Members #947918 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted August 7, 2022 Share Posted August 7, 2022 Nice - pretty fancy photographic setup. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 There have been several private email messages asking why we are doing this at this particular time. It is really quite simple. The car has around 80 miles on it right now and the engine is still relatively clean. We know that when the miles start adding up this car is going to do what all Buicks of this era were really good at - they will slobber, ooze, leak, drip, and find a whole host of other ways to become covered in oil and grease. We simply wanted to give the readers on the forum a pretty good idea of what this car would have looked like on the day that the new owner drove away from the dealer and headed down that dirt road to wherever home was. We will do our best to keep it as clean as we can along with driving it as much as possible. The car will be in East Moline on Thursday morning and that will be its official coming out for the world to see as they say. This has been a long time coming and our family is extremely happy with the way things turned out. If anyone from here on the forum should happen to be at East Moline, please stop by and say hello. I'm sure a good conversation about all things Buick will be had. Terry and Barbara Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Members #947918 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 Enjoy East Moline, Terry. Hope it is a smidgen cooler than TX. The CAR is fantastic. Through all the troubles, you stuck it out. Not sure I could have done so. CONGRATULATIONS! Ben 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted August 8, 2022 Share Posted August 8, 2022 On 8/6/2022 at 5:00 PM, DonMicheletti said: Nice - pretty fancy photographic setup. We call that a "Fancy-Schmancie" set-up! Terry has spared no expense with this car... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 Mark, please be careful with how you say things like that about this old Buick. There are folks out there who will equate this restoration with the 'trailer queens' like so many of the BCA 'trophy hunter' members lust after. It is true that we have some dollars tied up with the engine rebuild, some sheet metal work, and Gary Martin's beautiful upholstery and top work. These are things that I could not do myself. I did just about all of the machine work that was done on this car myself. I will be the first one to tell any and everyone that there were no corners cut anywhere with this car. I am a perfectionist and it has to be right. With that said there are no apologies due for anything. I am going to have it judged just one time and then it's drive the wheels off. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFDPete Posted August 9, 2022 Share Posted August 9, 2022 (edited) The car looks great Terry. A superb effort on your part to get the car finished for the show and getting there to earn your AACA 100 year award. I look forward seeing you and the car. Well done. Edited August 9, 2022 by IFDPete (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted August 10, 2022 Share Posted August 10, 2022 (edited) On 8/8/2022 at 11:04 AM, Terry Wiegand said: Mark, please be careful with how you say things like that about this old Buick. Terry, I was commenting on the fancy photos, not the car. Edited August 10, 2022 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted August 15, 2022 Author Share Posted August 15, 2022 I'm back home from the meet and it really was a great get together. There were a lot of folks there asking a lot of questions about all of the cars. I got to meet some of the people that frequent the forums and a good time was enjoyed by everyone. I was pleasantly surprised that the Buick won an award. Less than 30 days since the car was driven the first time in over 46 years and it brings home a really nice trophy. It really makes a person forget all the times of laying on the floor underneath it while getting it all together. I now want to get the miles on it so that the break-in oil can be changed out before the Red Flag Tour. The AACA President gave the 100 Year Medallion to me on Saturday. The thing that really had me baffled was the questions about the car. People were absolutely amazed about the wind wings on this car. Forget about the engine and the beautiful upholstery and top - they wanted to know all about those wind wings and the story behind them. Who woulda thunk? Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas AACA Life Member #947918 14 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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