6v Battery - poor starting issues.

[Nicole F]

1 minute ago, rocketraider said:

And if ya REALLY want to go hardcore, a battery terminal puller!

 

 

I had to replace my 1975 vintage puller last year when it basically fell apart. I'd had it since auto tech school. The instructor, Mr Comer, noticed us using hammers, screwdrivers, pry bars, big pliers etc to remove stubborn battery terminals and got the Cornwell Tools jobber to bring enough pullers for all his first-year students.

 

He was a good man and mentor. Hundreds of his former students attended his funeral.

That’s a cool gadget! And a very cool teacher. 

[Lahti35]

You can never have too many grounds!

 

I find so many electrical issues in old cars to be due to corrosion, especially if the body is involved in the current pathway. 

The above example is grounding the body and bed of my truck to the frame. I always clean off the spot of any rust and sand the area to bare metal, apply a little electrical grease to keep moisture out of the connection and then tighten down. It's the same with me for little or big cables/wires/connectors. 

[rocketraider]

I've bought scads of those braided steel and copper ground straps at swap meets. Never know when one will be needed.

 

Some GM cars will actually weld a shifter cable or heater control cable to its outer sheath if the ground strap from engine block to firewall is missing. The body component becomes the ground path.

 

Ground it, then ground it again!⚡ Saved us a lot of grief in the powerplant industry. It'll do the same for your old cars.

[Bhigdog]

Sort of a hijack......but...... When I was kid all the gas delivery trucks used to have a chain dragging under truck. My father said it was to dissipate static electricity. I haven't seen that in years although I seem to remember them using a rubber strap instead of chain for awhile. When we would get our airplanes refueled every fuel truck had a reel with light weight cables and big alligator clips. the first thing the refueler would do was ground the truck and bond the truck and plane. ..........bob

[Nicole F]

Update! The battery finally measured as fully charged on the tender. I left it off over night and she turned over this evening perfectly! Will keep an eye on it but I think it was just a drained battery - much have been that way when we got her. I think the many suggestions to better ground the cable is a really good idea. So I will look into doing that!

 

In other news, I think I’m finally getting the hang of driving her! The gears are so touchy and it’s easy to grind when trying to shift from 3rd to 2nd… my husband who has a class A license suggested to give her a bit of gas with the clutch in to get the rpm’s up to the proper spot and then shift down (that’s what they have to do in the big rigs)… and it works great. Smooth as silk! Any other suggestions to make sure I’m not putting any undue pressure on the clutch or transmission are greatly appreciated! I’m hoping these old cars are a bit forgiving while I learn their ways! And question… sometimes when starting out of the garage, she doesn’t want to go into reverse or 1st, even after going back and forth from 2nd and 3rd. So I finally had to just go for it and it grinded a little before going into gear. How do I avoid that? 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Nicole F (see edit history)

[Oldtech]

Sounds like the clutch is draggy. You may need to adjust the "free Travel" on the pedal. If it has too much motion before you feel it make pressure on the clutch it should be adjusted, 3/4 to an inch is typical.  OR... it may just need to be driven. 

[Nicole F]

6 minutes ago, Oldtech said:

Sounds like the clutch is draggy. You may need to adjust the "free Travel" on the pedal. If it has too much motion before you feel it make pressure on the clutch it should be adjusted, 3/4 to an inch is typical.  OR... it may just need to be driven. 

The driving part I can do! I’ll also add that to the list of questions for the mechanic in July. 

[WPVT]

I would emphasize the point previously made by Trimacar. The ground cable should be run directly to a bolt on the starter housing. Otherwise you are depending on the current making its way to the frame, from the frame to the engine block, and from the block to the starter. This was OK when the car was new, but after this many years thing get rusty and greasy and it's no longer a very good connection. 

If you get a new battery, replace the cables with heavier gauge, and reroute the ground cable to bolt directly to the starter housing, you'll never have to worry about jump starts. Heavier cables aren't necessarily available from your local auto parts store, but there are many vendors who custom make them. 

A 6 volt vehicle isn't by nature unreliable. It just isn't as forgiving about poor connections as a 12 volt system. 

[keithb7]

When the engine is running, car is sitting & not rolling, with the clutch-in gears are stationary too. When you attempt to slide a gear into first or reverse the gears may not be aligned quite enough to easily slide together and mesh. This is not abnormal. If you let the clutch out while the transmission is in neutral, you can get the transmission countershaft spinning. The car won't move as it is in neutral. Push the clutch back in, the countershaft will slowdown now and within a few seconds it will stop turning again. Good chance when it stops the two gears will align and you can slide 1/st or reverse into place. After doing this multiple times you will develop a good feel for it. You'll know how long the countershaft needs before it comes to a stop. The grinding noise is when the sliding gear attached to the shift lever is being shoved in to the spinning countershaft. Allow a little more time, so parts can align. 

[Grimy]

As @keithb7 says.  And because you have synchromesh on (only) 2nd and 3rd, you may find it helpful to just start to move into 2nd gear (you'll feel it), then move the lever to first or reverse.

 

And PLEASE verify the level of gear oil in the transmission and differential very soon.  GL-4 gear oil is the proper type for your car.

[keithb7]

Speaking of ground straps.  Saw this one at work today! 
 

 

[nsbrassnut]

Hi Nicole

 

Congratulations on acquiring your old Ford. Properly tuned and adjusted it should start and stop just fine.

 

Here is a bit of a windy discussion. But I wanted to pass along a bit of what I have been taught and learned about checking out older 6v systems.

 

There have been several good suggestions so far. But they are a bit spread out. What I would recommend is preparing an inspection and check list of all the items that should be considered, inspected, tested and adjusted along the way.

 

Some of the old Motor manuals and Ford manual will include servicing inspection/trouble shooting lists that are similar and provide good information as well.

 

If you do not know the prior history and use of your Ford then its often a good assumption to assume that much was not done recently, well or correctly. A detailed inspection and service of key items at the start can save a lot of grief later on down the road.

 

Here is a check list that I would use for a new to me car that I don’t know the previous history of and that showed similar symptoms. The electrical system needs to be in good condition for it to be easy to start. The starting and ignition system will use every bit of 500 plus amps on a 6V system when starting out cold. An old mechanic demonstrated that to me once using a clamp on voltmeter around the starter cable. My eyes popped when I saw the amperage that was going through it.

 

Electrical Checks

 

1)      Replace the 6V battery

a.       If you don’t know the history of the car and battery, just go ahead and replace it.

b.       6V batteries can be recharged and show “full” charge but still have little or no capacity for cranking. And if the car has not been used or serviced correctly the battery is likely damaged.

c.       Low-cost item that can be a big help replaced new.

d.       Be sure to check the water level in the battery regularly. The older charging systems tend to overcharge and slowed dry out the battery.

 

2)      Inspect and likely replace the batter to solenoid and solenoid to starter (or to starter depending on the make)

a.       6V cables need to be extra heavy gauge. Typically, 0 gauge, which is about ½ inch in diameter on the outside. If its not a heavy cable, replace it.

b.       Modern smaller 12V cables will not work.

c.       If you can’t find them at a good auto parts store, try getting some welding cable of the right size and bolt on ends from the auto shop and make your own. Some auto shops can make new heavy cables to order if you can find one.

d.       New properly sized cables will help a lot.

 

3)      Inspect and likely replace the ground straps

a.       Check the Ford manual. There may be more than one ground strap.

b.       Usually for many cars there is one from the battery to frame and another from the frame to the engine (around the clutch housing or back of the transmission).

c.       I’m not familiar with the Ford details, the manual should help by showing where the ground straps are. Sometimes the are actually on the firewall then back to the battery or frame, but this is less common.

 

4)      Disconnect and clean all the battery and cable connections.

a.       They need to be clean and tight to provide good electrical connections.

b.       You may even need to sand away paint or rust to get clean metal and good connections for the ground straps.

c.       As others noted earlier, at least one of the battery cable terminals looks like it needs to be replaced.

 

5)      Look for small flip top oilers on the starter and put a few drops of engine oil (new and clean) in each oiler.

a.       They are on most 30s-40s cars and likely also on the Ford.

 

6)      Check to see if the car still has the correct voltage regulator installed

a.       Originally there should be one on the firewall (I think). The manual and the wiring diagram in the manual will help locate it.

b.       It may have been removed when the alternator was installed and if so, the charging circuit may not work correctly.

c.       Regulators also can go bad resulting in poor charging or over charging of the battery. Both result in battery damage over time.

d.       A 6V alternator can be fine. They are often installed to provide more electrical output for accessories. But some install them when the generator and/or voltage regulator are defective and they don’t know how to recognize the problem and fix it. They also need to be wired up correctly to work properly and not damage the battery or electrics.

e.       Overcharging of the battery will “cook” it by eventually causing all the water to boil out of the battery which results in damage.

f.        If anything in the wiring looks different than what is in the manual, seek help. Modified wiring can cause a lot of issues and also be difficult to sort out.

 

7)      Starting system tests to consider

a.       Get a good portable volt meter (or muti meter) than can read 3 to 10 volts.

                                                               i.            Check the initial voltage on the battery terminal with everything off. Is should be in the range of 6.4 to 6.8V or slightly higher.

b.       Check in the manual which wire is the “hot” wire that provides power to the distributor which will show battery voltage when the ignition is on, but everything else is off.

c.       Check the voltage at various locations when the starter is engaged (and hopefully turning)

                                                               i.            Battery voltage should not drop below 5.5 to 5 volts.

                                                             ii.            Voltage at the starter terminal (or as close as you can measure to the actual starter) should be at about 5 volts give or take a bit.

                                                           iii.            Voltage at the distributor should also be 5 volts plus minus.

d.       If any of these tests “fail” then the electrical circuit wires, cables and connections need to be inspected and repair or replaced as necessary.

e.       Many miss testing the voltage at the distributor during engine cranking. Low voltage here even when the engine is otherwise spinning well, can result is difficult starting.

                                                               i.            Sometimes a related symptom is that the car tends to start just as the starter is turn off. This is a sign of low voltage at the distributor that suddenly improves when the starter stops and voltage improves enough to provide a good spark.

f.        If all the above doesn’t make an improvement. Something to try.

                                                               i.            Removal all the spark plugs.

                                                             ii.            Engage the starter. The engine should spin as fast as a modern car with all the spark plugs out.

                                                           iii.            If it doesn’t the starter may need to be removed and tested and/or rebuilt.

 

😎      When the engine is running. Check the charging circuit.

a.       The amp meter on the dash should show charging. The manual will provide guidance on what the amperage reading should be, but I would look for 4 to 6 amps at warm idle, 10 to 15 driving down the road.

b.       A working voltage regulator will drop the charging current to the battery once it gets recharged.

c.       If you can measure it, voltage at the battery terminals when charging is usually in the 6.5 to 7.0 volts (plus minus).

 

9)      Since it has been running recently the timing should be reasonable. But it would be good to get help with checking the timing as well as all the above items.

a.       If I remember correctly, those Fords have the distributor at the front of the engine down by the lower fan pully. A difficult spot to access and work on. If you suspect issues there, ask for someone who knows 46-48 Ford ignition system for help.

Fuel System

 

1)      Hard starting can also be a fuel supply issue.

2)      Usually if the fuel is getting to the carburetor, it will be “wet” inside after spinning the engine for a bit, especially if the choke was on.

3)      To check this, you have to take the air cleaner off and look down the carburetor throats.

4)      If the carburetor is full of gas, pulling on the accelerator linkage should result in some gas being sprayed down into the throats as well.

5)      If the carburetor is bone dry inside and the engine has been turning over well. Then it could have a fuel supply issue which would send you down another check list.

 

The above suggestions are not all that you could check out. Just those I can remember right off. The Ford and Motor manuals should provide a lot of additional information and suggestions of what to check.

 

A few comments on the brakes. This era uses what is know as “single circuit” hydraulic brakes. Which when in good condition are just find. The down side is that if there is a failure in a brake line or brake hose, then the brakes for all 4 wheels are gone, which is not fun.

 

If not done already, when you can get someone to go under the car (or put it carefully on a lift) and inspect every inch of the steel brake lines. If you find copper lines, they are not original and are much softer and can fail. If they are heavily rusted, have them replaced. When I first got my ’36 Packard and did a pre-drive garage inspection. Just pushing down hard on the brake pedal resulted in an old line bursting right in the garage.

 

The brake hoses, one to each front wheel and one at the rear axle should look good and have no visible cracks or heavy rust on the end fittings. If not, get them replaced.

 

There should be no visible leaks of brake flued at any of the line and/or hose connections. If you see fluid, get the system serviced.

 

Ideally the car should also be put up on a hoist or jack stands and the wheels removed to inspect the condition of the brake cylinders and brake shoes. They should be dry (often dirty, but dry) and not show signs of fluid leaks, bare rivets in the lining or thin or separating brake lining.

 

When properly serviced and adjusted the 4-wheel hydraulic brakes will stop straight, smooth and fast.

 

Best of luck with the old Ford. A lot of us think that the convertible model is one of the most fun ones to have.

 

Jeff

Nova Scotia

Canada

[Nicole F]

Thank you so much Jeff!! This is an incredible amount of information (I have saved it for future reference). Thank you for taking the time to write all of this! So helpful! 

I also purchased these books (as others recommended). So hoping to be able to be better at understanding all of this. 
 

I have an appointment with a classic car mechanic in July 5th and I will have them do a complete brake inspection. I would love to keep the original brakes. 
 

Thank you again! 
 

Nicole

[dodge28]

Looking at the picture  I see an obvious problem. Those battery cable terminals are tightened to the max.There is no space left. Contact between cable terminal and battery post is poor. On the surface it looks fine but it is not. You should replace those cables. Make your own using brass terminals and solder the cables . Use # 1 welding  cable. They are flexible. Also check the engine to chassis ground. Charge the battery fully.  Start car. After a few minutes when engine is warm turn on all lights. and acesaries.  THE ENGINE REV WILL DROP IF GENERATOR IS CHARGING. TURN OFF ALL SWITCHES AND THE ENGINE WILL SPEED UP. The next step is to charge the battery and disconnect the ground cable overnight. It must keep the charge. If not the battery is bad. CLEAN,TIGHT AND CORRECT BATTERY CABLE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN 6V systems

[dodge28]

I see from the picture the battery cable is tied to the water hose . The hose is colapsing at that point. What a poor place to strap a cable. Always keep cables away from hoses and gas lines. Also check the electrolyte level

[JFranklin]

With a cable that closes up all the way, I take it off the battery and use a hacksaw to open more clearance. I tighten the nut until the clamp is closed and run the sawblade down the slit. You can do it more than once to make the clamp close tighter on the battery post.

[Professor]

When it becomes time to replace your battery, I would recommend switching to 6V Optima batteries, running two in parallel.  No more acid to worry about, and they will give you 1,600 Cold Cranking Amps and 2,000 Cranking Amps.  Also, Amazon has a battery cover designed to cover two 6V Optima batteries and look like an original tar-top battery.  The battery cover may not be right for your car, but you will kiss any battery problems away with dual Optimas.

 

The downside is that they are expensive.  This said, I use Optima batteries on all my vehicles and my oldest Optima battery is 13 years old an still runs perfectly.  In my experience, Optima batteries give you way more for your money than any lead-acid battery.

 

Joe

[chief5]

I would have charged the battery really good and use jump cables to connect to a proper ground on the engine block - just for testing and try to start.

 

[zepher]

The sticker on the battery indicates it was made in Jan of this year.

Unless someone has really abused the battery, it should be fine once properly charged.

[Frank DuVal]

On 5/31/2022 at 2:43 PM, nsbrassnut said:

If you can measure it, voltage at the battery terminals when charging is usually in the 6.5 to 7.0 volts (plus minus)

In the 6 volt system, it can be as high as 7.5 volts at about 1500 RPM to keep it starting reliably in short trip use. 6.5 will not charge a 6 volt battery much. Not too bad if one drives 100 miles every time they start the car....  7.0 volts at around 1500 RPM will be OK usually.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[Bloo]

And 7.4-7.6 volts (at room temperature) is typical, checked with a charged battery. Most run about 7.5. There is leeway of a tenth or two to compensate for driving habits. This is because generators barely charge or don't charge at idle, so the amount of charge time can vary quite a bit depending on how the car gets used. The normal factory voltage setting will be in the service manual.