ELECTRICAL ISSUES WITH 65 (AGAIN)

[jframe]

Apparently it's time for my yearly electrical issues with my 65.  Noticed my Vintage Air just kept shutting down the other day, went from blowing hot air to nothing. No power to it at all. Come to find out, these units don't like voltage spikes. Checked the battery, alternator, and horn relay with voltmeter, and it showed 17 volts and climbing. Unplugged the regulator, which is a solid state that is less than a year old, and voltage started dropping and the heater kicks back on. Went to Autozone, swapped the regulator, which is less than a year old, and hooked everything back up. For a while it was good, then heater shuts down again, and same issue. Seems odd to get 2 bad regulators in a row; I just think something else is going on. Don't want to drive it for fear of blowing up the battery.  Any ideas on what to check next or route to take? Is it at all possible that if the alternator itself was bad, it would exhibit these symptoms? The regulator grounds well to the inside of the fender, and also has a ground wire running from it to the battery post. I swear, I love this car, but about every year at this time, it loves to throw me a curveball. 

[65VerdeGS]

Hi Mark,

 

I would check whether your alternator is charging properly.  I'm no electrical expert, but found this inexpensive Harbor Freight battery tester to be a useful tool for diagnosing battery condition, and charging system operation.  Just hook it up to your battery terminals and watch the needle with the engine idling.  It will show the output voltage of the alternator (should be between 13 and 14.5 volts), giving you an idea of whether it is under or over-charging the battery.  Another mode allows you to use a switch to load test the battery with the engine off. 

[jframe]

3 minutes ago, 65VerdeGS said:

Hi Mark,

 

I would check whether your alternator is charging properly.  I'm no electrical expert, but found this inexpensive Harbor Freight battery tester to be a useful tool for diagnosing battery condition, and charging system operation.  Just hook it up to your battery terminals and watch the needle with the engine idling.  It will show the output voltage of the alternator (should be between 13 and 14.5 volts), giving you an idea of whether it is under or over-charging the battery.  Another mode allows you to use a switch to load test the battery with the engine off. 

Guy at Advance Auto used this yesterday testing it, and it blew it all the way to the right, lol. Hard for me to believe that the regulator I swapped for yesterday is doing the exact same thing, but I suppose anything is possible.

[arnulfo de l.a.]

Something seems way off . The voltage should go up not down when regulator is disconnected, unless i misunderstood something. The regulator is what keeps the voltage at a useable level.  14 v. Max in most cases. It does not produce voltage which is what you are implying when you stated that the voltage went down after you disconnect the regulator. You should consider taking your car to a professional auto electric shop. Electricity is not very forgiving when it comes to making mistakes. Good luck.

[jframe]

34 minutes ago, arnulfo de l.a. said:

Something seems way off . The voltage should go up not down when regulator is disconnected, unless i misunderstood something. The regulator is what keeps the voltage at a useable level.  14 v. Max in most cases. It does not produce voltage which is what you are implying when you stated that the voltage went down after you disconnect the regulator. You should consider taking your car to a professional auto electric shop. Electricity is not very forgiving when it comes to making mistakes. Good luck.

I agree. What actually dropped when I unplugged the regulator was battery voltage. I just measured it with a voltmeter across the battery posts. Not sure if that was the correct way or not. 

[Bloo]

Battery voltage should drop when regulator is unplugged. That's normal. It sounds like a regulator problem to me.

 

The regulator powers the alternator field to make the alternator charge. The battery voltage "sample" comes from the battery, probably via the starter post, through a small wire to pin 3  on the regulator.

 

It just about has to be the regulator. Here are 3 things you could check to eliminate some edge cases:

 

1) On the wiring harness plug, unplugged, check for voltage from pin 3 (+) to the regulator's ground (-). This is the sample of battery voltage used for regulation decisions, and should match battery voltage very, very closely.

 

2) Is there any chance the regulator plug could be on upside down? You should find battery voltage on pin 3 of the plug with nothing running. When you find the one terminal that has battery voltage with everything shut off (as in #2 above), make sure it is going to pin 3.

 

3) Is there any chance the alternator plug could be on upside down? After making sure the regulator plug is on right side up, and that battery voltage goes to regulator pin 3 check to see that the wire from "F" (field) on the regulator is going to "F" on the alternator.

 

Two bad regulators wouldn't surprise me that much. Especially electronic ones. Do you have an old used electromechanical regulator laying around? If you do, I would try it.

 

Good luck and let us know what you find.

 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[arnulfo de l.a.]

I stand corrected by Bloo. I forgot that field excitation is provided by the regulator so as he stated.My apologies for the bad info.  

[jframe]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

Battery voltage should drop when regulator is unplugged. That's normal. It sounds like a regulator problem to me.

 

The regulator powers the alternator field to make the alternator charge. The battery voltage "sample" comes from the battery, probably via the starter post, through a small wire to pin 3  on the regulator.

 

It just about has to be the regulator. Here are 3 things you could check to eliminate some edge cases:

 

1) On the wiring harness plug, unplugged, check for voltage from pin 3 (+) to the regulator's ground (-). This is the sample of battery voltage used for regulation decisions, and should match battery voltage very, very closely.

 

2) Is there any chance the regulator plug could be on upside down? You should find battery voltage on pin 3 of the plug with nothing running. When you find the one terminal that has battery voltage with everything shut off (as in #2 above), make sure it is going to pin 3.

 

3) Is there any chance the alternator plug could be on upside down? After making sure the regulator plug is on right side up, and that battery voltage goes to regulator pin 3 check to see that the wire from "F" (field) on the regulator is going to "F" on the alternator.

 

Two bad regulators wouldn't surprise me that much. Especially electronic ones. Do you have an old used electromechanical regulator laying around? If you do, I would try it.

 

Good luck and let us know what you find.

 

 

 

All great ideas I may have to try. I put the car in the garage last night. Took a chance today and bought a new regulator from Oreillys. Came home tonight and battery was dead as a doornail. Had to use my jumpbox to get it fired. Put on the Oreilly regulator and voltage seemed fine. Is it possible the other regulator really WAS defective, and could have caused a draw on the battery overnight and kiĺled it? The Oreilly one measured in the 14 range across the board at the alternator, battery, and horn relay once I got the car started, and even with a full load of radio, bright lights, and a/c unit, only dropped into the 13's.

[Bloo]

That sounds better. Check it again after the battery is charged back up, because you can't tell a lot when the battery is low.

[1965rivgs]

10 hours ago, jframe said:

All great ideas I may have to try. I put the car in the garage last night. Took a chance today and bought a new regulator from Oreillys. Came home tonight and battery was dead as a doornail. Had to use my jumpbox to get it fired. Put on the Oreilly regulator and voltage seemed fine. Is it possible the other regulator really WAS defective, and could have caused a draw on the battery overnight and kiĺled it? The Oreilly one measured in the 14 range across the board at the alternator, battery, and horn relay once I got the car started, and even with a full load of radio, bright lights, and a/c unit, only dropped into the 13's.

Mark,

  How old is your battery??

Tom Mooney

[jframe]

4 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Mark,

  How old is your battery??

Tom Mooney

That may be the kicker. It's a Group 27 from Oreillys out of an Armada that came in the dealership awhile back. It was only six months old in the Armada, and the customer swore it was bad. We tested it, and it came back good, but she insisted on buying a new one from us. Who am I to turn down a sale, lol. So, the battery that was in the Riv then was giving issues, so old Mark pulled the switcheroo, got the customer's old battery out of the core bin, and turned mine in. Well, she could have been RIGHT.

[1965rivgs]

13 minutes ago, jframe said:

That may be the kicker. It's a Group 27 from Oreillys out of an Armada that came in the dealership awhile back. It was only six months old in the Armada, and the customer swore it was bad. We tested it, and it came back good, but she insisted on buying a new one from us. Who am I to turn down a sale, lol. So, the battery that was in the Riv then was giving issues, so old Mark pulled the switcheroo, got the customer's old battery out of the core bin, and turned mine in. Well, she could have been RIGHT.

 The battery is the heart of the electrical system. One must always be assured the battery is good before condemning any other component in the system.  If a battery is bad, it presents resistance to the charging system and the system will compensate by attempting to continue to put charge back into that battery. Folks that fail to properly service a car by ignoring battery replacement often eventually pay the price by replacing other components in the charging system because the components have been overburdened by attempting to constantly charge a battery that wont accept the charge.

  I learned this guideline as a young mechanic. Part of our in-service for a new truck was to check systems, wheel lug nut torque, U bolt torque, etc...I was in-servicing a brand new Mack truck which was factory equipped with 4 batteries. I noticed the charging system voltage was high and proceeded to inspect for ground wires, painted connections, etc... eventually isolating each of the charging system components and could condemn nothing. As a last resort, I replaced all four batteries and the charging system voltage stabilized at a normal and expected level. In spite of loading and voltage drop testing each of the new original batteries, one of them presented resistance to charging and prompted a high voltage charging level. The batteries were NEW...but who knows, maybe due to rough handling or poor manufacturing one of the internal plates may have been partially shorted making the battery unfit for service.

  From your description it sounds like you should buy a NEW and fresh battery....and hope that it`s good!

Tom

[jframe]

Tom, thanks for the tip. Always appreciate your advice. Problem here is that it's tough to find anyone in Northwest Alabama who will even TOUCH this car, much less fix it. These days, if it's not OBD 3 or better, these young guys are lost. So I've tried to do as much as I can myself, and have learned a lot from you guys and experience along the way. Always have to tell people; I'm a parts guy, not a tech.

[60FlatTop]

Most of my cars are Group 27, even the German was. Or 24's.

 

I have been using what Interstate calls their blems for well over 20 years. The current price is $45 exchange at the distribution centers. I try to keep 2 of each on hand. Early in the Fall I thought I had a bad ground cable on my '60 Electra but it turned out to be the battery, haven't replaced it in my stash yet. I call the center from time to time to see if they have blems on hand. I will do that soon.

 

[jframe]

6 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Most of my cars are Group 27, even the German was. Or 24's.

 

I have been using what Interstate calls their blems for well over 20 years. The current price is $45 exchange at the distribution centers. I try to keep 2 of each on hand. Early in the Fall I thought I had a bad ground cable on my '60 Electra but it turned out to be the battery, haven't replaced it in my stash yet. I call the center from time to time to see if they have blems on hand. I will do that soon.

 

I get a pretty good deal on Interstates here at the dealership, since I'm parts manager. They DO say Nissan on them, but a sticker is easy to remove lol

[RivNut]

Look for Group 27F batteries.  That will put the positive post closest the the radiator (as it came from the factory) but puts the post on the back of the battery so that you don't have to run the cable between the caps.  A dealer service bulletin came out in 1963 advising technicians to route the positive cable between the battery and the hold down post so that it would not rub against the four note horn and cause a short.  Not a bad idea anyway.  

 

Here's an illustration from the factory chassis manual.

 

[jframe]

6 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Look for Group 27F batteries.  That will put the positive post closest the the radiator (as it came from the factory) but puts the post on the back of the battery so that you don't have to run the cable between the caps.  A dealer service bulletin came out in 1963 advising technicians to route the positive cable between the battery and the hold down post so that it would not rub against the four note horn and cause a short.  Not a bad idea anyway.  

 

Here's an illustration from the factory chassis manual.

 

Yup, that is the one I use. Mine has the horns, so I route the cable down behind the hold down bolt so it doesn't come in contact.

[Seafoam65]

I use the 24F battery which allows me to use a tar top battery topper which looks like the original battery top on a 65.

You can't buy a tar top battery topper to fit a 27 series battery. Regarding the voltage regulator, I have found the old style mechanical

regulators to be way more reliable than the electronic ones. I've seen tons of the electronic ones be bad right out of the box. When

they are bad they always overcharge.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[Riviera63]

I would like to add an experience I had with my battery this last year. Periodically I would go to start the Riviera and it would crank for a couple of seconds and then go dead or it would just be dead. I had the battery checked and it tested good. I finally replaced the ignition switch and it seemed to solve the problem. I took a trip to Missouri for a BCA event, no problems. I stopped at my mothers on the way back which is just an hour away from where I live. I went out to the Riviera to go home and it was as dead as a door nail. Ran and got a new battery. It fired right up and no problems since. I related this experience to the mechanic that works on my car. He said that they have had several times where the battery was the problem even though the battery "tested good". This may not be the problem here. but, I found it to be an interesting problem/solution that we might want to tuck away in the memory banks.

 

Bill

[Seafoam65]

19 minutes ago, Riviera63 said:

I would like to add an experience I had with my battery this last year. Periodically I would go to start the Riviera and it would crank for a couple of seconds and then go dead or it would just be dead. I had the battery checked and it tested good. I finally replaced the ignition switch and it seemed to solve the problem. I took a trip to Missouri for a BCA event, no problems. I stopped at my mothers on the way back which is just an hour away from where I live. I went out to the Riviera to go home and it was as dead as a door nail. Ran and got a new battery. It fired right up and no problems since. I related this experience to the mechanic that works on my car. He said that they have had several times where the battery was the problem even though the battery "tested good". This may not be the problem here. but, I found it to be an interesting problem/solution that we might want to tuck away in the memory banks.

 

Bill

I have seen this   a few times....what happens is that the connection at the battery post inside the battery

is corroded and losing contact. A battery that does this is dangerous because you can get an internal spark at the bad post

connection that can lead to an explosion.

[jframe]

Well, got a new hot battery along with the Oreilly regulator and it fired right up and did a steady 14.6 volts at idle and everything seemed to work. Really need to get it out and drive it but now I discovered a pinhole in the water line to my refrigerator in the house that has been soaking my kitchen floor and didnt even realize it. I just cant get ahead lol.

[Riviera63]

5 hours ago, jframe said:

Well, got a new hot battery along with the Oreilly regulator and it fired right up and did a steady 14.6 volts at idle and everything seemed to work. Really need to get it out and drive it but now I discovered a pinhole in the water line to my refrigerator in the house that has been soaking my kitchen floor and didnt even realize it. I just cant get ahead lol.

Believe it or not I can relate to that as well. We have very acidic water which requires us to have an acid neutralizer. However, the pipes from the well to the neutralizer will spring pinhole leaks from time to time that have gone unnoticed creating a mess. Had another one yesterday that I caught in the early stages. Piece of rubber and a hose clamp until the plumber gets here this morning. We've had enough of that. Having them switch that section all over to PEX. 

 

Bill

[jframe]

Back to square one. New battery, new regulator, heater still shutting down. Does it when I give it gas and the rpm's come up. When I brake and they drop, the heater powers back up. I'm at a loss, and the worst part is, no one in my little area of the world that will even look at it. Time to do some research.

[EmTee]

Have you talked to anyone at Vintage Air about this?  One thing to check would be connections to the HVAC controller; particularly the ground connection(s).  Do you have any installation documentation or a schematic for the system that you can use for troubleshooting?  The symptom makes me think there could be a problem with the reference level the solid state control is trying to use.

[Bloo]

How is the charging (battery) voltage doing now? Check it with a full battery and the engine running faster than just idle.

 

Still 14.6?

[jframe]

I do have a wiring diagram I pulled off their website. What I can do to is disconnect the Vintage system at the horn relay and the ground wire off and perform the same test. If I raise rpm and don't have a voltage spike, then I'll know it's a Vintage Air issue. If it still has the voltage rising, I'll know it's a car issue. I'm about ready to get a priest.

[jframe]

2 minutes ago, Bloo said:

How is the charging (battery) voltage doing now? Check it with a full battery and the engine running faster than just idle.

 

Still 14.6?

I did just now at work. Faster you rev it, the more it climbs. Got to 17 volts and I let off the gas. Heater comes back on. 

[EmTee]

Hmmmm...  Might be time to locate a decent mechanical VR as Bloo suggested.

[BulldogDriver]

Guess I’ll jump in now. Vintage Air system would not cause any of the symptoms but would diffidently be effected by the charging systems problems.
 

You have eliminated all of the charging systems components other than wiring and the alternator.  doesn’t sound like a wiring problem other than grounding so just by process of elimination time to consider the alternator.  Now would be a good time to look at using a “single” wire unit, S10 or 12 which have been around for ever and are readily available. You can even keep the external regulator in place if you are look to be original with appearance. Being you have a Vintage Air AC I’m thinking that may not be that big of an issue. How to do the conversion is on the ROA website and here on the forum. 
 

Ray

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, jframe said:

I did just now at work. Faster you rev it, the more it climbs. Got to 17 volts and I let off the gas. Heater comes back on. 

 

That's too much. It is temperature dependent to some extent, but when your car was built it probably ran about 14.2 volts. In 1975(?) GM started using "maintenance free" batteries, and the plate chemistry is a little different, it likes a little harder charge, and can tolerate a little harder charge. They jacked the regulator voltage up to something more like 14.7. Almost immediately the aftermarket parts for GM followed suit. This change occurred at Ford and Chrysler too, but several years later. Replacement parts for GM have been at 14.7 volts for so long now that you will almost never see 14.2 volts anymore on a GM car with an alternator, even if it was built years before the change.

 

I expect to see about 14.7v on your car even though it is a 65. Modern batteries are fine with this, all modern cars charge this hard more or less, and it makes for brighter headlights.

 

17 volts is NOT ok. That will ruin your battery. It may make it swell up like a football and/or explode if you drive far enough. I am not kidding. One of my daily drivers, a Chrysler product, had a stuck regulator and got up to 17 or 18 volts back in the late 80s. The sides of the battery were bulging out about 2 inches and it was hissing loudly. That's hydrogen gas, BTW. Fortunately it didn't explode, but I have seen the aftermath of two that did explode and you would not believe the mess.

 

System voltage on a 12 volt car should never ever under any conditions go over 15 volts.

 

I am unfamiliar with your aftermarket AC, but my suspicion is it is shutting off to protect itself from burnout. The fact that it still works at all at this point is a very good sign.

 

You need to get the charging system under control. Don't worry about the AC yet. It sounds like it survived, lets hope it did. I recall that unplugging the regulator makes it stop charging altogether, as it should. Is that still true and can you double check?

 

Several posts back I posted how to verify that the plugs on the regulator and alternator are on right side up, and how to verify that the "sense" voltage is present at the regulator. If you have not already done this you should.

 

The regulator cannot cut back unless it "sees" the voltage get above it's regulation voltage (probably 14.7V) on it's sense wire. As for the regulator and alternator plugs, I don't think you could get them on wrong as originally built by GM, but 50 plus years later there's usually a lot of broken plastic. It would be easy to get this wrong on my truck, and it has exactly the same charging system you do.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

You need to try a mechanical regulator.

[jframe]

15 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

You need to try a mechanical regulator.

I am starting to think so. Measured at terminal 3 on the regulator, and showed 13 volts, same as the battery. The regulator and alternator do not appear to be plugged in upside down; think the alternator will only go one way anyway. Unhooled the a/c sytem completely and it still overcharged when engine was revved, so the Vintage Air is fine. Lectric Limited still sells an electromechanical regulator for 70 bucks, and I'm about ready to try it. Either that, or convert to a 10si internally regulated alternator and get an adapter harness from Speedway Motors that lets you use your original connector

[Bloo]

And if you unplug the regulator, it still stops charging, right?

 

Since it has the sense voltage on pin 3 (that was with the engine off and key off, right?), and the alternator plug is not broken and somehow reversed, I am having trouble imagining that it could be anything but the regulator. I have seen a lot of short-lived rubbish electronic "upgrade" regulators in my life, but even so I am having a hard time believing you got 3 bad ones in a row that don't work at all.

 

It is sure looking like you did get 3 bad ones. Too bad you don't have an old mechanical one laying around to try. The mechanical one on my truck is a NAPA/Echlin and it was old and dirty when I first got the truck. I think that was 1987. It still works and I've never had to do anything to it.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[EmTee]

I see this on Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/313575998935?fits=Submodel%3ABase|Year%3A1965|Engine+-+Liter_Display%3A7.0L|Model%3ARiviera|Make%3ABuick|Trim%3ABase|Engine%3A7.0L+6966CC+425Cu.+In.+V8+GAS+OHV+Naturally+Aspirated&epid=220232311&hash=item49029605d7:g:7FYAAOSwxqFhbx5L

 

I think it's a mechanical one, but you'd need to confirm with the seller.

[jframe]

49 minutes ago, Bloo said:

And if you unplug the regulator, it still stops charging, right?

 

Since it has the sense voltage on pin 3 (that was with the engine off and key off, right?), and the alternator plug is not broken and somehow reversed, I am having trouble imagining that it could be anything but the regulator. I have seen a lot of short-lived rubbish electronic "upgrade" regulators in my life, but even so I am having a hard time believing you got 3 bad ones in a row that don't work at all.

 

It is sure looking like you did get 3 bad ones. Too bad you don't have an old mechanical one laying around to try. The mechanical one on my truck is a NAPA/Echlin and it was old and dirty when I first got the truck. I think that was 1987. It still works and I've never had to do anything to it.

 

 

Engine was off and key was off. I actually didnt start it with it unplugged, but I am relatiely certain the result would have been the same.

Edited January 28, 2022 by jframe (see edit history)

[BulldogDriver]

And as I haven’t seen this mentioned, have you verified you have a Good ground to the regulator?

 

Ray

[Bloo]

59 minutes ago, jframe said:

Engine was off and key was off. I actually didnt start it with it unplugged, but I am relatiely certain the result would have been the same.

 

I agree. The whole key off thing was to be sure you didn't get fooled by the wrong wire. Its the only one hot with everything off. So, that's not it.

 

If it keeps charging with the regulator unplugged, there could be a problem in the alternator itself, or the wiring.

 

If it stops charging with the regulator unplugged, as it should by design,  it has to be a regulator problem.  I'm sorry to keep harping on this detail because I know you said several posts back:

 

On 1/24/2022 at 3:45 PM, jframe said:

What actually dropped when I unplugged the regulator was battery voltage. I just measured it with a voltmeter across the battery posts.

 

And yeah, that is what it should do, just exactly what it did. It stops charging (and the battery voltage goes down). I just can't get my head around 3 bad regulators. I feel like we have to be missing something, but there is nothing else left to miss. It has to be the regulator.

 

14 minutes ago, BulldogDriver said:

And as I haven’t seen this mentioned, have you verified you have a Good ground to the regulator?

 

Ray

 

I keep mulling that over too. That could sure do it, but In the original post it is mentioned that the regulator is grounded.

 

On 1/24/2022 at 8:39 AM, jframe said:

The regulator grounds well to the inside of the fender, and also has a ground wire running from it to the battery post.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[jframe]

I am thinking that Ill order the Lectric Limited mechanical regulator tomorrow. Got nothing to lose, and it is what the car was designed to run with in the first place.

[Bloo]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:39 AM, jframe said:

The regulator grounds well to the inside of the fender, and also has a ground wire running from it to the battery post.

 

Any chance it could be screwed up where all those connections come together? Usually an extra wire  on the battery post on a GM car. Could someone have replaced the terminal with one of those horrible replacements that clamp on with 2 bolts? Maybe connected the body/regulator ground with a crimp? Maybe acid-eaten up inside the clamp?

 

 

[1965rivgs]

  If I understand your posts, you purchased and installed the latest regulator and operated the car with a suspected defective battery? I mentioned in my previous post that trying to constantly charge a defective battery that wont accept the charge forces the charging system components into a continuos duty cycle that they were not intended to maintain for an extended period of time. Modern high output alternators will generate so much heat from continuos full output that they will expand and lock up. That`s why one should never jump start a completely dead battery and rely on charging system operation to restore a full, thorough charge. The old alternators are more forgiving but the later models are not. When employed as a fleet mechanic, our company`s policy was to change out a dead battery for a fresh one, never jump start and abuse the charging system. It wasnt easy to bite the bullet and change out 3 or 4 batteries when it was possible to do a quick jump start and wave goodbye, but hard to argue with a policy that was established on 80 or 90 years of experience/statistical data.

  It`s not a surprise to me that continuosly trying to charge a defective battery would take out three regulators...if it took out the first, why not the second and third?

  There could very well be wiring/connection issues after 60 years or some other cause for your problem, hard to diagnose through the internet, but just some random observations....good luck!

Tom

Edited January 28, 2022 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)