ELECTRICAL ISSUES WITH 65 (AGAIN)

[jframe]

7 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

Any chance it could be screwed up where all those connections come together? Usually an extra wire  on the battery post on a GM car. Could someone have replaced the terminal with one of those horrible replacements that clamp on with 2 bolts? Maybe connected the body/regulator ground with a crimp? Maybe acid-eaten up inside the clamp?

 

 

The battery cables are less than a year old and the ground wire I made myself. All the connections are clean that I can see. Everything just keeps coming back to the regulator now.

[jframe]

8 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

  If I understand your posts, you purchased and installed the latest regulator and operated the car with a suspected defective battery? I mentioned in my previous post that trying to constantly charge a defective battery that wont accept the charge forces the charging system components into a continuos duty cycle that they were not intended to maintain for an extended period of time. Modern high output alternators will generate so much heat from continuos full output that they will expand and lock up. That`s why one should never jump start a completely dead battery and rely on charging system operation to restore a full, thorough charge. The old alternators are more forgiving but the later models are not. When employed as a fleet mechanic, our company`s policy was to change out a dead battery for a fresh one, never jump start and abuse the charging system. It wasnt easy to bite the bullet and change out 3 or 4 batteries when it was possible to do a quick jump start and wave goodbye, but hard to argue with a policy that was established on 80 or 90 years of experience/statistical data.

  It`s not a surprise to me that continuosly trying to charge a defective battery would take out three regulators...if it took out the first, why not the second and third?

  There could very well be wiring/connection issues after 60 years or some other cause for your problem, hard to diagnose through the internet, but just some random observations....good luck!

Tom

I actually never drove the car with the battery that died. I had the latest regulator on it, and used my jump box to jump it off and get it started. At idle everything seemed fine volt wise, and I shut it down and bought a new battery the next day and put it in. Now, the day after that, I drove it to work with the new battery and regulator, and got the same old song and dance that has been going on since square one. I agree about trying to charge a defective battery; it's a waste of time, and hard on electrical components. Of course, that battery had been in the car for a couple of months and cranking fine for that time, but I imagine it still could have been wreaking havoc with the electrical system, and I didn't realize it until I really needed my heater the other day, and it started shutting down, which is what caused me to get the voltmeter out and do some checking.

[jframe]

Ok, ordered an electromechanical regulator from Lectric Limited. Car has been sitting 3 or 4 days. Opened the door to get something out of it and no interior lights. Checked battery with meter and the brand new battery in the car is as dead as a hammer. The mystery deepens.

Edited January 30, 2022 by jframe (see edit history)

[jframe]

Did what I believe is called a draw test with my test light. Unhooked the negative cable and put my test light between it and the negative post. Light came on, so I start pulling fuses (broke 3 getting them out, naturally) and the light never went out. Disconnected battery wire off the post of the alternator, and light stayed on. Hooked it back up, then disconnected the voltage regulator plug, and the test light went out. I think I may have at least found the circuit that's causing the drain. Had my new battery on trickle charge for a couple of days, just hoping I haven't ruined it.

[telriv]

Mark,

 

     Use your wiring diagram to check the wires on the regulator plug to make sure somehow someway during a servicing or cleaning they weren't installed in the wrong locations.

    I had a '63 one time that drove me nuts for a period of time. Turns out two wires were placed in the wrong locations causing all the problems.

 

Just another thought.

 

Tom T.

[jframe]

30 minutes ago, telriv said:

Mark,

 

     Use your wiring diagram to check the wires on the regulator plug to make sure somehow someway during a servicing or cleaning they weren't installed in the wrong locations.

    I had a '63 one time that drove me nuts for a period of time. Turns out two wires were placed in the wrong locations causing all the problems.

 

Just another thought.

 

Tom T.

The blue wire goes to F on the regulator, the white exciter wire is right next to it. The alternator plug can only go one way; it's been plugged up for a year. The red wire on the regulator plug showed exact same voltage as the battery when I tested it the other day, which was before the new battery turned up dead. The brown wire to the light in the dash is all the way to the right on the regulator. All placement looks correct according to the chassis manual. I'll take any suggestion I can get though; all much appreciated.

[Bloo]

I just went outside and looked at my truck, which has the same first generation "Delcotron" system as an early Riviera.

 

1) If you were holding a regulator in your hand, with the cover can toward you and the pins pointing down toward the ground, going from left to right the pins are  F, 2, 3, 4. The wires connected to them are BLUE (F), WHITE (2), RED (3), and BROWN(or maybe black) (4). 

 

2) Imagine you were standing in front of the the alternator, with the pulley toward you and the plug on the back at 12 o clock. You cannot see the plug directly because it is pointing away from you, but it is at the top of the case. The big binding post for the charge wire is to the right of the plug from your view.. When the wiring harness connects, BLUE goes to your LEFT and WHITE to your RIGHT.

 

Please double check.

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[jframe]

22 minutes ago, Bloo said:

I just went outside and looked at my truck, which has the same first generation "Delcotron" system as an early Riviera.

 

1) If you were holding a regulator in your hand, with the cover can toward you and the pins pointing down toward the ground, going from left to right the pins are  F, 2, 3, 4. The wires connected to them are BLUE (F), WHITE (2), RED (3), and BROWN(or maybe black) (4). 

 

2) Imagine you were standing in front of the the alternator, with the pulley toward you and the plug on the back at 12 o clock. You cannot see the plug directly because it is pointing away from you, but it is at the top of the case. The big binding post for the charge wire is to the right of the plug from your view.. When the wiring harness connects, BLUE goes to your LEFT and WHITE to your RIGHT.

 

Please double check.

 

 

I will look tonight. The regulator sounds dead on what I have. The replacement alternator I bought last year wasn't clocked correctly, so the plug is at 6 oclock, right in front of the damn control arm shaft. I may have to take it loose just to get it out and see, but at this point, I'm willing to try anything. I might add that the wiring on this car under the hood has not been butchered, and is mostly stock and still wrapped in what looks like factory tape.

[Bloo]

What I meant by that is not so much the clocking, but if you were looking at the alternator if it were off of the car. If the pulley were toward you and the plug were at the top, white would be on the right.

 

Let us know what you find out. Verifying this even if it is unlikely to be wrong is a good start.

 

I gather it charges at the correct voltage now but drains the battery overnight? is that right?

[jframe]

6 minutes ago, Bloo said:

What I meant by that is not so much the clocking, but if you were looking at the alternator if it were off of the car. If the pulley were toward you and the plug were at the top, white would be on the right.

 

Let us know what you find out. Verifying this even if it is unlikely to be wrong is a good start.

 

I gather it charges at the correct voltage now but drains the battery overnight? is that right?

Nope. Started it last night and the alternator is still blowing away about 17 volts. 16.9 or so at the battery and horn relay. I see your point about the plug, and since it's at 6 oclock instead of 12, the blue wire should be on my LEFT if I'm facing the alternator in the car, still mounted.

[Bloo]

White on the right with the plug at 12:00, rotate the whole mess to the left half a turn (in your head), white will be on the left, and blue on the right with the plug at 6:00.

 

This is YOUR right, with you standing in front of the car facing the pulley.

 

I realize you can't actually see it from that angle. If you were looking at the back of the alternator it would reverse again.....

[Seafoam65]

My guess at this point is that your recently installed alternator is defective.......very unusual problem for them

to overcharge but I have seen the 60's Delcotrons do this on a couple of  occasions...... 

 

[Bloo]

That's true, but unless I have missed something in this thread, unplugging the regulator makes this alternator stop charging. Given that little piece of information, I keep trying to come up with a scenario where it could be the alternator's fault, but I can't. If the field was being energized from a fault inside the alternator, unplugging the regulator should make no difference.

 

[jframe]

When I hooked up the test light in series with the negative battery cable and negative post and unplugged the regulator WITH EVERYTHING OFF AND DOORS ALL SHUT, the light went out. Would that mean that the regulator circuit was the one with the draw?

[Bloo]

Maybe, but not necessarily.

 

For whatever reason, I think it is the alternator field that is drawing the current. It should be off. The regulator should turn it off. This theory also explains the overcharging, because the field would be on all the time, leaving no way for the regulator to control the field.

 

This screams of crossed wires. It it turns out there are no crossed wires, we will probably have to get both plugs off, and check every wire for continuity and shorts. There aren't many wires. The circuit diagram for the Delcotron is online. I'll go find it if it turns out we need it.

 

 

 

[EmTee]

Could the field winding be shorted to the case somewhere?  Or could the BAT be shorted to the field somehow?  The symptom is essentially full voltage to the field no matter what -- and that situation persists with the ignition off (killing the battery).  Weird because apparently removing the BAT wire didn't remove the short.  Given this is regulator #3 (or I lost count...) if it were mine I'd crack the alternator open and have a look inside.  (And when I was finished I'd re-clock the connections to be where they belong).

[Bloo]

 

[jframe]

Here is my alternator plug at 6 oclock and my regulator plugged in. Battery was dead again even on.ky maintainer. Jumped off after a minute with the jumpbox and ran. Voltage settled down in the 14's at idle but when revved up and held, it jimped to 16-17 pretty quick. Fixin to put a bullet in the old girl.

[EmTee]

2 hours ago, Bloo said:

For whatever reason, I think it is the alternator field that is drawing the current. It should be off. The regulator should turn it off.

Can't argue with that schematic.  What about a partially shorted field winding?  Could that overload the solid-state regulator and explain the 3 'bad' SS regulators?  Again, if the wiring is correct I'd be tempted to check the field winding in the alternator.  Is there a resistance spec for the field coil?

[Bloo]

That all looks right to me, except the white wire turned yellow somehow before it got to the alternator. That looks a little weird but I see nothing crossed up.

 

OK then, check the following, Regulator unplugged, engine off:

 

1) Red wire should be 12V hot, no other wires hot. (if you find anything else hot, stop here)

2) Turn ignition on. Brown wire should be hot now also. No other wires hot.

3) Ground the brown wire. GEN light on dash should come on. Unground it.

 

Regulator is still unplugged. Unplug the alternator plug.

 

4) Check wires at alternator plug for voltage (to ground).

     Neither should be hot. (if you find a hot one, stop here)

 

Turn the ignition back off.

 

5) Check continuity of blue wire from regulator plug to alternator plug.

     It should have continuity.

6) Check continuity from blue wire (either end) to ground.

     Should not have continuity to ground.

7) Check continuity from white wire at regulator plug to yellow(!) at alternator plug.        Should have continuity

8 ) Check continuity from white wire to ground.

     Should not have continuity to ground.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Bloo]

21 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Can't argue with that schematic.  What about a partially shorted field winding?  Could that overload the solid-state regulator and explain the 3 'bad' SS regulators?  Again, if the wiring is correct I'd be tempted to check the field winding in the alternator.  Is there a resistance spec for the field coil?

 

If you look at that schematic it is not difficult to imagine how flipping either plug might cause his exact symptoms, but that isn't it. They are connected correctly in the pictures. I'm close to stumped, and think it has to be wiring.

 

Not sure about the field resistance. If I remember correctly most 12 volt alternator field coils draw about 2.2-2.5 amps. I guess about 6.7 ohms.

 

If he can unplug the regulator and at make it stop charging, it just about has to have 12V coming from the field wire.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[telriv]

Bad/shorted diodes likely in the alternator.

 

Tom T.

[jframe]

Bloo, I know that wire looks yellow, but I had my little flashlight on it when I took the picture. It's white. Like you, I am close to stumped, and the bad part is, I am an absolute amateur when it comes to checking electrical issues, but if nothing else comes out of this, I've learned a lot. My mechanical regulator should be here tomorrow evening, and I'm going to try it and see what happens. If no go there, I think I'm going to bypass the whole mess and go to a 10si internal regulated alternator. If THAT doesn't work, I'm going to have to try to find help locally, which is bad, because nobody around here wants to work on old cars. If they can't laptop it, they aren't interested. I'm going to try the suggestions you posted above as well, and see what happens there. Hopefully, I'll know more by this weekend. Thanks a ton to all of you for all the suggestions and help; I will keep posting if I find anything out.

[steelman]

Reclocking an alternator is not hard. Remove the four screws from the back. DO NOT separate the two halves. Hold them together and gently rotate the back 180 degrees. Reinstall the screws. Now you alternator is clocked correctly. If you separate the two halves, you will have to reinstall the brushes, as they are spring loaded against the armature and will pop out when you pull the back off. If that happens, there are two brushes to reload. There is an alignment hole through the rear case so you can put a paperclip through the outside of the case holding the brushes and springs behind it. Reassemble and pull out the paperclip to release the brushes back against the armature. This can be done on the car, but removing it is easier, especially if you are going to inspect it. 
If you exchange this alternator for a new one, be sure to reclock it before you install it.

[EmTee]

37 minutes ago, jframe said:

If no go there, I think I'm going to bypass the whole mess and go to a 10si internal regulated alternator.

I think that's overkill - like Bloo stated above, it has to be either a wiring issue or possibly an internal alternator problem.  If the mechanical VR doesn't solve the problem and the wiring checks out, I'd replace the alternator with another original-style unit.

 

If there's an auto parts store that can test your alternator by itself I'd think that would be a good thing to do.  It's not a slam-dunk, but they'd certainly be able to rule-out a diode/rectifier failure.

[jframe]

Put on the regulator from Lectric Limited. No more overcharging; it was in the 14's as far as readings at the battery and horn relay. Alternator seemed to be charging normally as well. Amp light was on at idle; but I'd rev it and it would go out. After car warmed up it seemed like battery voltage would drop some then when it would go over 14 when I revved it lamp would go out. I hooked my maintainer back up and shut the car off after it ran about 20 minutes. The maintainer said "charging 75%", so I wonder if the light was coming on because the battery is not fully up. Anyway, left the maintainer trickle charging it, and the cables and regulator are hooked up, so we'll see if it still has a draw and pulls it down overnight.

[EmTee]

Fingers crossed! 

 

Once the battery is fully charged, check your belt tension and test voltage again with the headlights on.

[jframe]

Well, this morning the amp.light was on at idle and when revved up, it went out. Voltage was under 14 at idle, and came up with revs. Frustrated, I pulled the alternator and took it to Oreilly's to test. Checks out good. In the process of reclocking, you guessed it, the brushes flew out on him. He gets it back together, and I put it back on. This time, 12.5 across the board, so I figure the guy jacked the alternator up putting the brushes back in. Took it back to a different Oreilly's, actually closer to me, and told them what it was doing. Really frustrated now, I swapped it for an internally regulated unit from a 78 Camaro. I have the American Autowire jumper kit that plugs into the exiating harness and other end into the alternator. Used there jumper plug to plug into the regulator harness and hòoked everything else up. This one is clocked at 9 oclock rather than three, so it was a bit more cramped plugging it all up, but I got it done and crossed my fingers, and said a little prayer to the Buick angels. Fired up and runs 14.6 or so across the board and not much less with the lights on bright. Not calling fixed yet, but no amp light and voltage seemed normal. Went and filled up with gas and got some fuses and all seemed normal. Time will tell. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and suggestions; it was all a major help. Got to get my radio back funtioning now; it was fuse tapped into the fuse block, and I can't seem to get those fuses back snapped in place with the tap around the end of them without breaking the fuse. Good idea, I suppose, but they are ridiculously tight snapping into place.

Edited February 5, 2022 by jframe (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

If your alternator was an O'reilly's unit, it would not be surprising for it to be defective out of the box. I had to quit selling

their alternators and starters about 7 years ago because it got to the point that all of them were bad right out of the box.

I switched over to Advance Auto Parts alternators and starters and I only get about 1 out of 50 that gives me any problems.

The other parts that are no good at O'reilly's, whom I use for most things are their rack and pinions (100 per cent of them leak

after one year), their drive axles(100 per cent of them have torn boots in a year's time)their brake master cylinders(high defective rate)

and their brake pads(all of their ceramic pads squeal, and  all you can buy is ceramic on late model applications. I use Advance Auto Parts on

drive axles and rack and pinions with no comebacks whatsoever. I use Centric brake pads with no issues at all from a local supplier.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[jframe]

3 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

If your alternator was an O'reilly's unit, it would not be surprising for it to be defective out of the box. I had to quit selling

their alternators and starters about 7 years ago because it got to the point that all of them were bad right out of the box.

I switched over to Advance Auto Parts alternators and starters and I only get about 1 out of 50 that gives me any problems.

Yep, I have had a few thru the shop in the past with same issues. At the time, I had the old external regulator one off, and just asked the guy if I could trade for a 10si internal regulator. Gladly paid the 7 dollar price difference just to see if it made a difference in the car. Sure enough, hooked it all up, and my problem vanished. I really think there may be a draw in the old voltage regulator harness, but all of that is bypassed now. Sort of lost my fanny buying that mechanical regulator from Lectric Limited, but it's still on the car, and I'm going to swap over my old, original cover so it looks correct. Tucked the jumped regulator plug into the fender out of the way. If this alternator turns out to be junk in the future, I'm either going to do like you did and try Advance's, or find somewhere that sells genuine AC-Delco units. So far, so good; drove it to work today with no issues; heater works fine. Also, it's cranked right up the past two days on 25 degree mornings, so I am thinking the draw is gone. 

[telriv]

Even AC-Delco aren't that good today. More Chinesium. Doesn't seem to be anything left as it's mostly ALL junk.

One of the ONLY ways is to find a competent re-builder & let him take a crack at it. Sometimes even then it's a crap shoot.

 

Tom T.

[Chasander]

Bought a AC Delco and it charged at 17 Volts. Get an original NOS there adjustable. 

[jframe]

2 hours ago, Chasander said:

Bought a AC Delco and it charged at 17 Volts. Get an original NOS there adjustable. 

I thought Lectric Limited's would be adjustable. The cover is on with screws and comes off. It has points, but no adjusting screw like the original. Changing to an internal regulated alternator is probably what I should have done from the beginning, and saved a lot of money, time, and frustration. I think one of the biggest problems was in the regulator harness itself.