Dropping oil pan on '41 Super

[neil morse]

Being home with a lot of time on my hands, I've been looking around for things to do on my car.  I have never removed the oil pan to see what kind of sludge is in there and check on the oil pump, so thought this would be a good time for the job.  But when I look under the engine, I can't see how to reach the bolts that hold the pan at the very front.  I'm sure there's a way, but I need some assistance to figure it out.  Anyone out there who has dropped the pan on a '41 who can help me?  Thanks in advance.

 

Neil

[Morgan Wright]

I had a '40 and I know what you mean. I tried that myself on it, and after looking up at some of those bolts in the front, and how impossible it looked to get them out, I realized that it would be much harder to get them back in. No combination of wrench extensions could do it.

 

So, I decided that would be a job for when the engine was out, and changed the oil a whole lot of times.

[Jim Nelson]

I have a '38-46s' and its a bit tighter up front but you can do it.    You are supposed to be able to remove the pan.    I removed my lower shields on both sides.   This gives you room.   My opinion is that if you can not reach the front pan screws,  you might have to loosen the front motor mount bolts so you can raise the engine.    I did not have to do anything out of the ordinary.    If necessary,  use  a wooden spacer under the harmonic balancer to keep it raised.    Early in my time of Buick ownership,  I had pulled my pan several times for several check's.   (Checking / cleaning oil pump screen,   cleaning the pan bottom,  checking rod  and main bearing clearances).      My first time,  I disconnected  the tie rod to allow for ease of dropping the pan.   Later,  I learned how to drop the pan without disconnecting anything else.    I have the 248 engine so the big engine guys may have some different issues.     I bought several oil pan gaskets,  water pump gaskets,  and especially the valve cover gaskets.    JMHO.     I now have a '35-58'   and I have several gasket sets for that car.    (Pan, valve cover, water pump, etc.....   This allows me to get into the engine as necessary to keep it running in good condition.   I drive my Buick's.....

[Jim Nelson]

Also,  your engine needs to be 'just high enough' so you can replace the fan belt.   If your motor mounts are old and tired to the point you can not do that,  you might have to loosen the front mounts to do that.   (time to replace them ? ).    While you are 'down there',   you might replace your belt.   I highly recommend a 'COG' style belt.   My '38-46s' uses an "Industrial" v-belt.   It is a "BX"  belt ( 5/8" wide ).   You might have the "A" belt which is only 1/2" wide (top width , 'AX' version).    The cog style runs cooler than the regular v-belt.    I keep a spare belt in a 'gallon' sized zip lock bag in my spare parts box in the trunk.  (JIC).    

[neil morse]

Thanks for the help, Jim.  Someone else also suggested the idea of loosening the front motor mounts and raising up the engine a bit.  I will check it out.  I have the 248 engine as well.

 

I had the fan belt off last year when I put on a new water pump and I just re-used the belt that was on it.  I don't remember what type it was, but I will check that out also. 

[Matt Harwood]

Jacking up the front end a bit is pretty standard procedure. Not a bad idea to think about doing the motor mounts, but it's also easy enough to do that you don't necessarily have to tackle it all at once. You only need a little clearance, so you should be able to get the engine up and out of the way. I've always done it by using a hoist to pull it up from above (if you're working on the oil pan, you don't have much to use for a jacking surface) but you can probably jack it up from below, insert a couple of blocks of wood under the motor mounts (don't use the balancer, please!) and lay it back down while you work, then do the reverse when it's time to put it back together. That way you can still access the pan.

 

If you change the belt, don't use the cog style that the usual suppliers sell. NOISY. I put a new Gates belt with the teeth on my Limited and it goes Wrrrrrssszzzz wrrrrrssssszzz wwwrrrrssszzz every time I rev the engine or accelerate. It sounds like I have a supercharger bolted on there or something. In fact, I just got a replacement belt that I found from an industrial supplier that has none of the teeth, and I'm going to install it and see what happens tonight.

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Matt,   The water pump fan makes more noise.   I sold v-belts  amongst other power transmission devices,  for more than 18 years.    The cog belt runs cooler and therefore can last longer.    Also,  the cog belt is also known as "raw edge style".    This also makes it more flexible when passing over a pulley.   If you are using an alternator you are using a small pulley which needs the more flexible belt for better contact.    I am using an alternator, that is painted black,  so it is less obvious to discerning eye.    JMHO ....

[Jim Nelson]

Neil,   Did you use SS bolts on the water pump?.     Its one of those things not mentioned but the first time you pull an old pump that won't allow you to remove the regular bolts will you say - - ya, the solution is - - -

[Matt Harwood]

Not to hijack Neil's thread but perhaps this is useful for him and others reading so I'll do it anyway. Ordinarily I'd agree with you, Jim, and I certainly respect your expertise. However, I embarked on a full replacement of the water pump and radiator of my '41 Limited because I thought the noise I was hearing was the water pump bearing failing. It was a loud grinding, scratching, squeaking sound that was exactly like, well, a bearing failure. I sandblasted my water pump fan and pulley and had them powdercoated and reinstalled everything with a new pump and toothed Gates belt I bought from Bob's Automobilia. And the moment I started it, I heard this weird whirring sound and assumed that my new water pump was also broken. I posted this video on my '41 Limited restoration thread and one smart reader said it was probably belt noise. So I removed the new belt and installed my old one and guess what? The old belt sounded EXACTLY the way it did before when I thought the pump was going bad. It was ALL BELT NOISE.

 

Now, that old belt was showing signs of fatigue so I reinstalled the new one, and at that point it made a whirring sound very much like the sound of the Vortech supercharger I used to have on my 5.0 Mustang. It was by far the loudest sound on the car.  Listen:

 

 

That's all fan belt noise, not fan noise, not water pump noise. I also tried a belt from another '41 Buick I have sitting in the shop which is obviously the same Gates belt from Bob's and it was pretty new, so I tried that one. Same whirring sound. It is 100% the belt, no doubt about it.

 

I'm testing a new smooth belt tonight and I'll report back regarding its sound levels. I'm not worried about heat in this particular application--this engine doesn't spin fast enough or have large enough loads on it to worry about that.

[Jim Nelson]

Hi Matt,   Well I guess my old ears have not been blessed.   I guess as long as its quiet with the hood closed,  I guess I classified it an normal engine  noise.    20+ years hanging around turbine engines can create zero results in the 3-5 khz  freq. band.   Getting old sucks - - -      

[neil morse]

59 minutes ago, Jim Nelson said:

Neil,   Did you use SS bolts on the water pump?.     Its one of those things not mentioned but the first time you pull an old pump that won't allow you to remove the regular bolts will you say - - ya, the solution is - - -

 

I did not use SS bolts, nor did I have any trouble removing the old ones -- but I will take your advice if I ever have to do another water pump!

[Guest]

Just curious.  My '53 specials both had holes in the cross member to allow a socket and extension for the previously hidden cap screws.  Does anyone know when GM smartened up?

Edited April 16, 2020 by Guest (see edit history)

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Neil:

 

I had the same issue on my 1940 248 but have removed it 3 times now so I know the tricks:

 

1. Put the car up on ramps. Also jack up the frame a bit on ea side and put jack stands in. You want max amount of height under the car. Use plenty of chocks and be safe! It is best to use a creeper and go in head first.

2. Set the engine so that cyl 1 and 2 are about the half way point. This places the crank throws appx parallel to the ground.

3. Drain the oil and pull out the dipstick so you don't get poked in the eye!

4. Remove the pan bolts on the back side between the pan and lower clutch housing. If it's been a while since any cleaning has been done on the pan it will probably be a mess back there.

5. Remove the 4 front pan bolts. There will be 4 holes in the crossmember to accomplish this.

6. The tricky part. The next 2 bolts towards the rear on each side are tough to do because of the crossmember. I found it worked well using 1/4 inch drive socket and universal to get enough angle and purchase on it. Mag inserts help as well.

7. Remove the remainder of the bolts, pry the pan loose, and lower and pull to the rear to clear the crossmember and throws. You have to kind of thread it around the oil pump and screen as well. I found it best to have my head at the rear of the engine so I could wrestle it towards me and out on the left side. You will likely come out filthy so be prepared.

8. Pound out the pan dimples while it's out.

9. Reverse order to reinstall! Heh. You want to keep the pan gasket from moving around. I use Permatex #2. Use a torque wrench set to 10 lb ft in order not to re-dimple the pan.

 

BTW I cannot raise the engine easily. I have rear motormounts on both of my cars so those would have to be undone as well. So the above was accomplished in normal configuration.

 

Cheers Dave

Edited April 17, 2020 by Daves1940Buick56S (see edit history)

[Kestrel]

Neil,

 

Did you look for any access holes in the frame's cross members ? My '51 Super straight 8 has 4 holes in the forward cross members, 2 per side, to allow access to the 4 forward pan bolts. I used a socket and extension like Daves1940 Buick5 described above. You can't see the bolts but can feel the socket grab 'em.

[neil morse]

This is all very helpful -- thank you.  I will go down and check tomorrow for the access holes in the cross member.  I must have just missed them because I didn't expect them to be there. 

[neil morse]

Yup -- the holes are there as you can see in this photo.  As I said, I missed them because I just wasn't looking for them.  Thanks again for the help.  I will follow Dave's step-by-step approach.

 

[neil morse]

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

 

 

Thanks again for the help.  I followed Dave's suggestions.  The only problem I had was that the bottom of the pump was catching on the front baffle in the pan, and there was no way that I could get the pan off with the pump in place. (The tie rod kept the pan from dropping low enough.)  So I just removed the pump and that freed up the pan.

 

 

[Jim Nelson]

Interesting how much "junk" was found in the bottom of your oil pan....   I found at least that amount.      Mine had around 20+ year of sludge after it had been rebuilt back in 1989 ish.....   check your gear to housing clearances as that will help bring your oil pressure up in a good range.  "More is better and to much is enough 
- - -  

[Justinlb]

Looks like I'm just copying what you do with your car Neil. 

I had low oil pressure, it might be the half inch thick sludge in the pan.

also Dave's instructions were spot on, it was very easy to get the pan off.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Justinlb (see edit history)

[NailheadBob]

I love all the instructions here, great job by Dave and Neal. I have done some repairs on a 1941  Super 56S, BUT not the oil pan gasket.

 

Would these oil pan gasket alignment tools work, they are plastic, they screw in place and hold the gasket to engine, then you slide oil pan over them, and it lines up oil pan with gasket and with your other hand you can start  the remainder of bolts, they will hold up oil pan a little bit as the center of tool is larger spring loaded in the center and then just unscrew the alignment tools? Fel-Pro gaskets  makes them item # ES-72863, and Dorman also makes them item # 45722, they have 2 sizes.

 

ALSO would you be able to remove one of the tie rod end by using a tie rod end puller so it would not damage the end or the boot and save pulling the oil pump off?

 

Just some thoughts

 

Bob

 

EDIT: Any suggestions or comments, positive or negative feedback to me, I would welcome, than you in advance. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by NailheadBob
update (see edit history)

[Robert Engle]

I had the problem of collapsed front engine mounts on my 32 56S.  There are no holes in the crossmember in 32.  I raised the motor and got the pan off.  When it goes back together, the front two bolts will be and 1/8 in shorter  to accommodate  removal.

 

These oil pans had a generous sump to allow crud to settle out of the oil and not be circulated through the bearings.  Non detergent oils were the problem.   Modern oil will not get this build up of crud.   

 

Bob Engle

[neil morse]

6 hours ago, Justinlb said:

Looks like I'm just copying what you do with your car Neil. 

I had low oil pressure, it might be the half inch thick sludge in the pan.

also Dave's instructions were spot on, it was very easy to get the pan off.

 

Hi Justin:

 

Yes, you're following me down the same trail, for sure.  I don't know whether you saw that I have a lot more details about my oil pan/oil pump job on my thread in the "Me and My Buick" forum.  If you click on the arrow in the upper right hand corner of the link below, it will take you to the beginning of the discussion in my thread.  Good luck, and don't hesitate to send me a PM if I can be of any assistance to you!

 

 

[neil morse]

4 hours ago, NailheadBob said:

I love all the instructions here, great job by Dave and Neal. I have done some repairs on a 1941  Super 56S, BUT not the oil pan gasket.

 

Would these oil pan gasket alignment tools work, they are plastic, they snap in place and  hold the gasket to engine, then you slide oil pan over them, and it lines up oil pan with gasket and with your other hand you can start  the remainder of bolts, they will hold up oil pan a little bit as the center of tool is larger spring loaded in the center and then just pop out the alignment tools? Fel-Pro gaskets  makes them item # ES-72863, and Dorman also makes them item # 45722, they have 2 sizes.

 

ALSO would you be able to remove one of the tie rod end by using a tie rod end puller so it would not damage the end or the boot and save pulling the oil pump off?

 

Just some thoughts

 

Bob

Hi Bob:

 

I looked up the plastic alignment tools you are talking about because I couldn't quite visualize what they looked like.  Here's a link to what I found:

 

https://www.drivparts.com/part-details.html?brand_code=BCWV&part_number=ES 72863&part_name={2}

 

They seem like a really helpful idea -- I wish I had known about them.  I ended up using a few long bolts to hold the pan in place and aligned while I got a bunch of the other bolts started.  I held the gasket in place with thread -- not the easiest thing I've ever done, but it worked.

 

If you look at my thread by clicking on the link I posted above, you will see that I didn't have to remove the tie rod to get the pan back on with the oil pump in place.  By jacking the body up and turning the front wheels all the way to one side, I was able to achieve the necessary clearance so I could slide the pan back on with the oil pump in place.

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by neil morse (see edit history)

[EmTee]

To hold gaskets in difficult spots I have tied a piece thread through a few of the bolt holes (along with some Permatex #2) to keep the gasket aligned with the pan.  The thread won't interfere with the gasket or the bolt.

[Lawrence Helfand]

I dropped my pan a few month ago on my 41 Century. There are holes in the cross member to access bolts with basic socket extensions. You do not need to jack up the motor. You will find lots of crud buildup and I suggest not touching anything but the pan and changing the oil pump pickup unless you can thoroughly clean it which is difficult. It will likely be clogged with sludge. Changing the pickup is just removing a cotter pin. The pan flange is usually distorted and will require some flattening between holes. I used a high tack gasket sealer and dropped all the bolts in the holes while it set up to eliminate any alignment issues. After cleaning the mating block surface I brushed on a coat of high tack and re assembled cleaned pan. It is tempting to start scrapping away all the crud on the block walls and crank but you will invite debris clogging oil galleys. The biggest gain was the increase in oil pressure especially at low rpm attributable to easier flowing oil pickup. In regards to engine mounts nothing made my drive train smoother then installing new motor and transmission mounts. Any vibration I was experiencing disappeared. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 6/19/2022 at 8:27 AM, EmTee said:

To hold gaskets in difficult spots I have tied a piece thread through a few of the bolt holes (along with some Permatex #2) to keep the gasket aligned with the pan.  The thread won't interfere with the gasket or the bolt.

 

  Yes!  Dad taught this to me back in about 1950 or so.

 

  Ben

[Justinlb]

On 6/18/2022 at 11:54 PM, neil morse said:

Hi Justin:

 

Yes, you're following me down the same trail, for sure.  I don't know whether you saw that I have a lot more details about my oil pan/oil pump job on my thread in the "Me and My Buick" forum.  If you click on the arrow in the upper right hand corner of the link below, it will take you to the beginning of the discussion in my thread.  Good luck, and don't hesitate to send me a PM if I can be of any assistance to you!

 

 

Thanks Neil that was a lot of useful information in there, I ended up lapping both pump body and plate and got it within the manuals specs. my plate was actually warped, but a lot of sanding took care of it.
now im getting around 10-20 psi idling and 30-45 psi driving with the engine hot. Opposed to 0-5 idling and 10 driving.

On 6/19/2022 at 8:27 AM, EmTee said:

To hold gaskets in difficult spots I have tied a piece thread through a few of the bolt holes (along with some Permatex #2) to keep the gasket aligned with the pan.  The thread won't interfere with the gasket or the bolt.

Thread worked great for aligning the gasket. I wish I knew about this earlier in life, it would have saved me a lot of swearing.

[EmTee]

5 hours ago, Justinlb said:

Thread worked great for aligning the gasket.

Glad it worked out for you.  The only problem I have is my fingers aren't as nimble as they once were, which makes handling the thread more fun...

[Victor W]

When I dropped the pan on my 40 Special the gasket was held in place with fine copper wire through each bolt hole. Not sure if that was a factory trick or (more likely) an old mechanic's trick. 

 

I just used a little Permatex like others in a couple spots to hold the gasket while putting the pan back up in p!ace.