57 Chrysler Imperial brake light issue

[GasWorksGarage]

we have a 57 Imperial with no brake lights. running light and turn signals work although the right signal flashes faster than the left but all the bulbs work.

there is power into the brake light switch and when you hit the peddle there is power coming out.

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks in advance. 

[keiser31]

Sounds like bulbs to me.

[dalef62]

Trace the wire coming out of the switch.  If you have turn signals the bulbs are good (unless they are using different bulbs).  I bet the wire is broke somewhere between the switch and the turn signal switch.

 

[edinmass]

Check the grounds...........

[Bhigdog]

Turn signal switch...........Bob

[certjeff1]

Looking at a wiring diagram the brake light switch sends power to the turn signal switch and then out to the brake lights. Almost all manufacturers do it this way. It keeps the front turn lights separate so they don't turn one when the brakes are applied. I would say turn signal switch.

[GasWorksGarage]

Bob,

 

how does the turn signal switch effect the brake lights?

 

Thanks.

[Bloo]

On any car that shares the bulbs between brake and turn signal (that would be 99.9% of American antiques with factory turn signals), the brake light circuit goes through the turn signal switch after the brake light switch.

 

All of the suggestions in this thread so far are good.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[JACK M]

5 hours ago, GasWorksGarage said:

Bob,

 

how does the turn signal switch effect the brake lights?

 

Thanks.

As mentioned above. The turn signal switch separates the rear and front turn signals into two circuits.

Front for turn and indicator, then rear for turn and brake as it further separates right and left brake lights..

[JACK M]

Bloo answered as I was typing. I am sure you get the gist by now.

This all goes out the window if there are separate brake lights from the turn lights in the rear like many newer cars are.

 

I will add, CHECK GROUNDS FIRST THING !!!!!!!

Edited November 22, 2019 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

7 hours ago, GasWorksGarage said:

Bob,

 

how does the turn signal switch effect the brake lights?

 

Thanks.

 

Explained above by others. Basically the 12V power supply exits the brake switch and goes to the turn signal switch where all the PFM happens. Follow the 12V's from the brake switch to the turn switch. If it enters and exits the switch to L & R rear brakes, keep following it until you find where it's interrupted. Since both rears are not working the turn switch is the most likely culprit. With luck it's an iffy connector but i'd guess not...........Bob

[trini]

In some applications the assemblies  had there own individual ground. Remove and clean. Another place to look is the flasher unit.. All the other advice is on track.

[GasWorksGarage]

On 11/22/2019 at 8:42 AM, certjeff1 said:

 

 

thanks all

 

[GasWorksGarage]

well I took the turn signal switch out. Its a rocker switch that only has 2 wires on it. 

[Frank DuVal]

That does not make sense. Unless it grounds a wire to make a turn signal??????? 

[GasWorksGarage]

here is a pic.

[Bhigdog]

That's not the turn signal switch........bob

[Guest]

Turn signal switch is under the steering wheel, looks like this.

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[Bloo]

Apparently it uses a relay to perform the functions usually done by the turn signal switch.

 

 

You'll need to find where it is to test. A wiring diagram is going to be a necessity at this point. How does the cancel function work? There must be a switch or contact of some kind in the steering column to unlatch the relay.

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[m-mman]

57 to 60(?) Imperials do NOT have a stalk/lever on the steering column for the turn signals. 

1957 uses a rocker switch mounted on the dash next to the steering column 

1958+ uses a pivoted flipper switch to select R and L.  (and a little button in the middle to stop the flashing)

The canceling mechanism remains in the steering column but it affects the relay. 

 

Yeah, really strange. Perhaps they thought that the ergonomics of a switch on the dash might be better ????

As I remember Chrysler returned to the lever for 1961. 

[Bhigdog]

5 minutes ago, m-mman said:

57 to 60(?) Imperials do NOT have a stalk/lever on the steering column for the turn signals. 

1957 uses a rocker switch mounted on the dash next to the steering column 

1958+ uses a pivoted flipper switch to select R and L.  (and a little button in the middle to stop the flashing)

The canceling mechanism remains in the steering column but it affects the relay. 

 

Yeah, really strange. Perhaps they thought that the ergonomics of a switch on the dash might be better ????

As I remember Chrysler returned to the lever for 1961. 

 

That, and there is a relay, and a cancelling switch. I'm officially in way over my head boys. I'm out...............Bob

[Bloo]

Yeah, we really need more information to continue. In the mean time imagine this: Two latch relays inside the magic box, one for right and one for left. A switch in the steering column that is normally "on", but goes "off" once or twice in the rotation of the wheel.

 

1) 12v goes to the switch in the column, and then on to the coils of the latch relays. To engage a signal, the dash switch, a momentary switch, grounds the coil of one of the latch relays, pulling it in. When the relay pulls in, it engages a contact that keeps the coil grounded, so the relay stays in when the dash button is released.

 

2) When the steering wheel is turned, power is interrupted to the entire system, and the latch relay releases. EDIT: The switch might interrupt the latch contact's path to ground rather than the 12v supply. Either would work.

 

The contacts in the latch relays, other than the extra one that holds the relay in, are just the same as the contacts in a normal column switch. It should work about like this:

 

1) 12v is supplied to a flasher, "flashed" power goes on from there to the relay assembly.

 

2) 12v is supplied to a brake light switch and switched power goes on from there to the relay assembly.

 

3) The two (or more) rear brake/signal bulbs are normally connected to the brake light switch when the signals are off.

 

4) When you turn a signal on, one set of contacts connects a front signal bulb to the flasher

 

5) Also when you turn a signal on, another set of contacts disconnects a rear bulb from the brake light switch and connects it to the flasher.

 

What you just read is entirely a wild guess based on the picture of the switch and relay. Don't put too much stock in it, although I'll bet it isn't far off. Further troubleshooting is gonna take a wiring diagram and a multimeter. I'm sure we can figure this out. Funny, I have driven Imperials with the switch on the dash, and never really gave any thought to how it worked until now.

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[m-mman]

Here is the the wiring diagram

[GasWorksGarage]

Here is what I have thus far,

 

When I turn on the right signal it stays on as normal until the steering wheel is moved then it cancels. When I rock the switch for the left signal it will not stay on I have to hold the switch in the left position. So I believe that the switch under the steering wheel is bad at least. I have to find the relay and test it. I want to thank all for your input. and thanks to m-mman for the diagram. 

Keep the info flowing.....

[Bloo]

I would check the relay first. The cancel switch might affect both sides. In any event you can test the cancel switch from the relay location. let us know what you find.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history)

[GasWorksGarage]

On 11/21/2019 at 2:38 PM, keiser31 said:

Sounds like bulbs to me.

 

bulbs are fine

Edited November 26, 2019 by GasWorksGarage
add text (see edit history)

[GasWorksGarage]

How in the #$%&*# does this panel come off?

[keiser31]

I would imagine there are clips behind the material. Try a flat blade screwdriver and pry a LITTLE.

[c49er]

Slides out of the metal retainer groove next to the wind lace. Pull it Towards the front of the car. The kick panel is very rigid and it's packed tight in the lower A pillar area with the cables and E-brake. Just did some on a 300C.

[GasWorksGarage]

any leads on where to find a self cancelling turn signal switch the bolts to the lower side of the steering column? 

 

Thanks in advance.

[JACK M]

The aftermarkets I have seen that will cancel will have a small rubber wheel that rides on the steering wheel.

I have never used one of those, however I have installed aftermarket switches.

Then I drive around with the turn signal on.

I have toyed with the idea of one of those buzzers or chime thingies that can be found under the dash of later cars at the wrecking yard. (you know, those warning devices if you leave the lights on etc.).

I have mocked one up with a tool made from same that I use for checking for voltage. But never did make a permanent one.

 

[JACK M]

Also I have a street rod with an electronic canceling. These are easy to find and work well.

[GasWorksGarage]

Thanks all, I cleaned up the old one and soldered the wires back on and I am up and running. 

 

Thanks to all for the help