Anybody in New York/New England familiar with this Cadillac V16?

[Matt Harwood]

I have a sort-of client I've been working with for a few months who is looking for a 1930-31 Cadillac. He found this 1930 Cadillac V16 club sedan on his own and is heading up to look at it on Saturday, but he's not very familiar with the cars. He likes them, but has never had an old car before. I've tried to give him some guidance, and this is a big leap ahead of where I expected him to go. However, it also appears to be a lovely car with a lot of expensive work already done. It's a lot of car for a first-timer but if it's a good one, he'll probably be OK, especially if he can get it below asking price (it sounds like he can).

 

I can't go look at it for him just for logistical reasons, but I was wondering if anyone in the Long Island or even the New England area is familiar with this car? Something like this just can't stay off the radar. I do think the price is within reason for a V16 club sedan in this condition if everything else is right. Things that have given me red flags in talking to the seller is 1) he's not really interested in the car, even though he rebuilt the engine. 2) It's apparently running on an electric fuel pump rather than the twin vacuum tanks that should be fueling it. 3) It has THREE Optima batteries and he says he gets 20 cranks out of them, then they're dead. (I can probably DRIVE my '29 around on the starter/battery for half an hour). And 4) they say it has insert bearings, which can be good but can also be a red flag.

 

My client/friend is worried about the colors being non-authentic, but I don't find them objectionable. No photos of the interior, but on a V16, the mechanicals really are the important part.

 

Does anyone know this car or have experience with it? I'd sure appreciate your feedback. Thanks!

 

 

http://www.nepclassiccars.com/1930cadillacv16.htm

[John_S_in_Penna]

I don't know this car, but have a couple of observations.

The seller, who is asking $295,000 on his website

for this sedan with an older restoration, says that the colors

are "right out of the Nature's Studio Cadillac catalog."

I have that catalogue, and it was produced in late 1927 

for 1928 model Cadillacs and LaSalles.  I don't know that

there is such a catalog for 1930 models.

 

That fender color, sort of a raspberry maroon, looks too

bright and garish.  Matt, I question that color too.

 

And if, as the dealer claims, "this amazing car was completely

restored with fine [sic] of the finest restorations I have ever seen,"

should it have the electrical problem you mention?

 

Just because your client has the money, doesn't mean

he should jump into a car like this.  New swimmers should

start at the shallow end.

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

2 minutes ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

I don't know this car, but have a couple of observations.

The seller, who is asking $295,000 on his website

for this sedan with an older restoration, says that the colors

are "right out of the Nature's Studio Cadillac catalog."

I have that catalogue, and it was produced in late 1927 

for 1928 model Cadillacs and LaSalles.  I don't know that

there is such a catalog for 1930 models.

 

That fender color, sort of a raspberry maroon, looks too

bright and garish.  Matt, I question that color too.

 

And if, as the dealer claims, "this amazing car was completely

restored with fine [sic] of the finest restorations I have ever seen,"

should it have the electrical problem you mention?

 

Just because your client has the money, doesn't mean

he should jump into a car like this.  New swimmers should

start at the shallow end.

 

 

Agreed on all points, but he's jumping in and swimming with or without me. I at least want to make sure he's going in the right direction. If I can't check the car myself, hopefully someone has at least some knowledge of it.

 

I'm not necessarily looking for opinions on the car or the colors or the price, that's all for the buyer to decide, but if it's a known car that comes from a good collection or has a reputation for being cranky, I'd like to know.

[edinmass]

 I’ll be in New England until Saturday.  PM me the location your phone number and his.

[mercer09]

when considering colors, a v-16 most likely could have been custom ordered in any color.

 

just making a point............

[edinmass]

45 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

when considering colors, a v-16 most likely could have been custom ordered in any color.

 

just making a point............

 

 

Yes, you could order anything you wanted, but almost everyone with money had better taste than to pick the colors on this car. The correct question to ask is why is this car such a nice older restoration, and yet it needed another half asxed engine overhaul. 300k for a club sedan that has soo many red flags...............I think I would keep looking for something that will hold its value in the future, and has better provenance. Just saying........Ed

[John_Mereness]

Matt, I too find the colors fine on it - metallic may be a touch aggressive verses a pearl, but that is where the legend of metallic paint starts. .

 

Also, nicely accessorized all be it if you pull out an accessory brochure the heron and the Dual Pilot Ray are 1931 (in 1930 they offered a single 8" standard Pilot Ray and a Goddess), but the sidemount =mirrors are fine in the more plain style (31 had the script mirrors) and the tire covers are fine too for a 1930, all be it they would have a emblem/badge.  I do not think stainless spokes are in either 1930 or 31 accessory brochure, but obviously they were commonplace so there was a way to order them. 

 

The backside of the bumpers would be painted when the car was new (in this case I would say maroon).

 

Exhaust should have fishtails - repros available Pete Saunders and also David Gano.

 

If not aware there is the V-16 survivors site:  https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/V6srv30.htm 

 

I do not know how successful someone will be running a V-16 on an electric pump - at least they would have to gave really low pressure as I bet 1.5 pounds is a lot. 

[alsancle]

I love club sedans and this is a nice car.   I wanted to bash the colors but after staring at them for a bit I guess they are not that bad.

 

Price all in should be under 200k with the car running.   If it was really 300,  then that awesome blue 3 window coupe would be much smarter.

[Davlet]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

I love club sedans and this is a nice car.   I wanted to bash the colors but after staring at them for a bit I guess they are not that bad.

 

Price all in should be under 200k with the car running.   If it was really 300,  then that awesome blue 3 window coupe would be much smarter.

 

Very niceone for much less and still V16

 

http://dshappyclassiccars.com/index.php/cars-for-sale/1930-cadillac-v-16-imperial-sedan-4330/

[mercer09]

Looks like Shappy is getting ready to retire. The Duesenberg is now for sale and a lot of price drops. Cokers Thomas only 375K?  that was 550k last year.

 

Is mkt going soft?

[alsancle]

10 hours ago, Davlet said:

 

Very niceone for much less and still V16

 

http://dshappyclassiccars.com/index.php/cars-for-sale/1930-cadillac-v-16-imperial-sedan-4330/

 

Limo vs club sedan Dav.   The club is much better.

[Matt Harwood]

Isn't that Dick Schappy looking at it (center)?

 

Ed, I'll send you a PM. Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

[Tom Laferriere]

For 300K, I have 1930 Cadillac V-16 All Weather Phaeton your client should consider.  

[Joe in Canada]

18 hours ago, Davlet said:

 

Very niceone for much less and still V16

 

http://dshappyclassiccars.com/index.php/cars-for-sale/1930-cadillac-v-16-imperial-sedan-4330/

You have to be very carful on who you deal with.

[John_Mereness]

By the way, Tom Laferriere just sold a very nice original V-16 Club Sedan (like sold it last week).

Edited March 29, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Add'l by the way, I have always enjoyed my conversations with Dick Shappy and he has helped me out of a bind or two (or three plus for that matter). 

[John_Mereness]

On 3/26/2019 at 8:34 PM, alsancle said:

I love club sedans and this is a nice car.   I wanted to bash the colors but after staring at them for a bit I guess they are not that bad.

 

Price all in should be under 200k with the car running.   If it was really 300,  then that awesome blue 3 window coupe would be much smarter.

Prices are somewhat across the board, but I think 200-300K to not be out of line for a really well done car (especially if it was a decent car from day one). 

 

Also, a well done car will have significant investment in replacing die cast trim alone, plus such as hubcaps and ...

 

The advantage to of a Club Sedan is that you get an adjustable front seat - a blessing in most early 30's cars.

 

It is referenced on this page - a 4361-S:

https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/V6srv30a-sambeat.htm

[John_Mereness]

Kind of interesting when you read the comments how many of us commenting like an original/unrestored car, though there is a flip side of the coin and plenty of people do not want unrestored cars and really do seek restored cars.  There also seems to be a division between people wanting a well restored car and a truly well restored car (aka one that drives, everything works, and...)  And, there is another group that wants restored and will not touch it unless well restored and aka one that drives, everything works, and...) and car was a nearly perfect original car to begin with pre-restoration.  

 

Ned Herman use to recommend buying the best original car that money will buy and then restoring it doing whatever it takes to turn it back into a new car (a lot of fantastic original cars became restored, but even 40-50-60 years later if fortunate to get one of his restorations they are really extraordinary). 

[alsancle]

I have an open mind but there is nothing worse than a Poorly restored car.   A nicely restored car but with poor color choices may be ok,  but sometimes the poor color choice is the tip of the iceberg.

 

And we all know the phrase "full restoration" has a meaning as wide as the grand canyon.

 

Also,  I won't touch a car that isn't "right".   That means body swaps, engine swaps, etc just aren't interesting to me.  Full history is usually a requirement too.

[Tom Laferriere]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

By the way, Tom Lefarriere just sold a very nice original V-16 Club Sedan (like sold it last week).

Yes, 3 weeks ago.  Great car!  Best running and driving V-16 I ever drove.  Nice when they are all original.  

[John_Mereness]

I recorded Chasing Classic Cars the other evening and he did an episode with a 1931 Packard 840 Roadster and discussed it being 70's colors and not particularly to today's taste.  He spoke about it not selling at prior auction so he changed the colors to black.  When I looked at the earlier photos though I instantaneously disliked the tan top, the light/throttle cluster in the steering wheel was broken (it is right in your face), dirty carpets, a color and look of leather that was marginal, and a couple of missing screws and ... - I would say he came close in his first upgrade via darker painted wires and blackwalls, but "aesthetics "and "freshness" perhaps are reasons it fell a little short for the money (ex. a black top would have made a huge difference).  And, I am very cautious of  Scottsdale Auction venues as a strategy for these type of cars. 

 

 

.  

Edited March 29, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

I saw the Optima batteries mentioned.  Most people do not understand grounding.  When I do a starter, I generally tell people to forget any cosmetics (I will handle and I usually do case prep-work prior too) as I want metal to metal contact all the way from end to end on the starter, as well as through engine and ...  I will always remember a panic call a few days before a Concours of "the starter will not work" to arrive at their home and find they had 100 point painted all the pieces prior to assembly - my reply was to go disappear for a while and ...  -  I TOOK A KNIFE TO THE WHOLE THING.  I also think Optima's to not be ideally suited for continuous starting to get a fresh restored car tuned/de-bugged or for people that start a car up every 5 minutes to drive it nowhere matched to many people not knowing how to properly charge them or knowing and yet thinking they can cheat the system. 

[Matt Harwood]

Well, I shared my advice with the fellow, as well as summarizing the opinions here for him:

 

A V16 Cadillac is A LOT of car for anyone, and borderline too much for a first-timer. It is both expensive to buy and expensive to own, and the purchase check will only be the first of several (maybe many) large checks to be written. Club sedan is desirable, colors manageable, make sure interior is good. This particular car is not known, which is a little concerning, but not unreasonable since many cars are just squirreled away and never shown. On the other hand, it may indicate a car that is not sufficiently roadworthy to be trusted and/or a car that is so wrong that it has just been kept out of sight. Seller is a Packard restorer of some note, but does expertise with Packards mean expertise with Cadillac V16s? I don't know. Showing pictures of a disassembled engine doesn't mean it was properly rebuilt. Red flags include the fuel pump, the multiple Optimas, and the fact that he throws around the word "perfect" way too much, which suggests some naivety at best and deception at worst. There are multiple easy-to-spot "flaws" on the car which, while not critical, are noteworthy and possibly expensive to fix. If you are dead-set on a 1930-31 Cadillac, my professional advice is to start with a V8 car at 1/4 the price and decide if you like it. If you want to move up to a V16 later, it's easy. Starting with a V16 means you're in with a big up-front cost and if the car is wrong, it will be VERY expensive to fix and/or sell. If you really want a V16, there are others available that are better vetted and either more desirable or less expensive. If it's a good car, it's a win. If not, you'll regret it for a long, long time. Bottom line: if you can afford to drop $250,000 at the craps table on a single roll of the dice, then go for it because that's exactly what buying an unknown V16 is going to be like.

 

I have not heard back from him yet. He's slated to fly there tomorrow (Saturday) so we'll see what happens and I'll let you guys know. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

 

[John_Mereness]

Matt, that is good advice, though I would tell you a V-16 purchase was all about passion in 1930 and still is today (if the fellow wants one then he should get one).  

 

That being said, my rule of thumb I tell anyone is to set aside an extra 10K for issues and with the more unusual stuff (like the RR PI) I would set aside 50K.  I would say if for example buying a Duesenberg I would plan on maybe 150K.  And, sometimes a car eats that and more and sometimes you never have trouble in the slightest.  Hopefully, your buyer has been around the block at least once to recognize a decent enough car when he looks it over and drives it (but no matter how savvy though he should still plan on surprises).  

 

I always tell the story of the first Auburn - a 1935 851 Supercharged Phaeton that dad bought with one of his salesman - we took it out on an AACA tour for an entire weekend and it performed flawlessly (yes, flawlessly).   When delivered the throw-out bearing had gone bad and there was a note on seat that a new one was in the way from Stan Gilliland and a check for $500.00 to install. When the fellow got into the car to install he determined someone had driven over a 55 Gallon barrel or "off a cliff" and that with all the frame damage (it was actually well repaired) it really should have another frame sourced/replaced.  Well, a high point car then gets shredded to get a frame put under it and .. - a year later and X amount of money, plus a lot of pain. Upon completion, we drove it around the block and everyone said fabulous and it was put up for sale the next weekend.  I use to see it at Auburn and the fellow said it was an exceptional car. 

 

The last V-16 engine I arranged was quoted at 1K a hole (16K) for a straight forward rebuild, another 10K if I wanted 100 point, and another 6K plus more if I wanted 100 - 100 point (ie over the top), plus manifold repair and porcelain on top of that. It had a NOS distributor cap already on it.  And I had to take engine out of car and they were including a stand, running it for a couple days, and delivering it for my installation.   I think the end result was 18K, plus 6K in detailing, plus a couple more thousand to get it back in (manifolds were repaired for around 2K and porcelain left for another day). 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

That being said, my rule of thumb I tell anyone is to set aside an extra 10K for issues and with the more unusual stuff (like the RR PI) I would set aside 50K.  I would say if for example buying a Duesenberg I would plan on maybe 150K.  And, sometimes a car eats that and more and sometimes you never have trouble in the slightest.  Hopefully, your buyer has been around the block at least once to recognize a decent enough car when he looks it over and drives it (but no matter how savvy though he should still plan on surprises). 

 

This is good advice.  We can probably create a set aside table for different chassis:

 

1.  Model A Ford:  2k

2. Straight 8 Buick  8k

3. Straight 8 Packard 10k

4.  PI  50k

5. Model J 150k

6.  540k  200k

7.  J12 Hisso 300k

[neil morse]

Matt, I think you are giving your friend/client very good advice.  I would have added to your list of red flags (but maybe that's just me) the grammatical errors and typos in the copy on the seller's website.  Okay -- some people might think I'm compulsive about correct writing and spelling, but if you're in a field where attention to detail is the hallmark, for God's sake pay some attention to what you write on your website!  "... fine of the finest restorations I've ever seen," come on.  I know you would never be guilty of that because you obviously proof read everything you write meticulously.  

[chistech]

3 hours ago, neil morse said:

Matt, I think you are giving your friend/client very good advice.  I would have added to your list of red flags (but maybe that's just me) the grammatical errors and typos in the copy on the seller's website.  Okay -- some people might think I'm compulsive about correct writing and spelling, but if you're in a field where attention to detail is the hallmark, for God's sake pay some attention to what you write on your website!  "... fine of the finest restorations I've ever seen," come on.  I know you would never be guilty of that because you obviously proof read everything you write meticulously.  

There was just a 31’ DB sedan on bring a trailer were the seller was a dealer and tried to come over as experienced. He called the restoration on the Dodge as a correct one yet it was easy to see, while the car looked nice, that it was very far from correct. It was loaded with Phillips screws everywhere, a velourish looking interior with very incorrect ornately stitched panels, home made running board trim out of aluminum angle, modern hose clamps, and a nicely routed, but way too modern, copper piped heater setup. That was just the very obvious. I totally agree, when someone is looking to spend a very large sum of money on a car, the cheapest investment it to seek qualified advice.

Edited March 30, 2019 by chistech (see edit history)