Mattml430 Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 So I’m about to remove the engine in my 27 and balance it. Its a D series engine, and doesn’t smoke or burn oil. Runs really nicely but just has a bad vibration at certain rpm. Is there any tips or tricks you can advise my on tackling this job. Pulled many engines apart but not an old dodge to balance it. Appreciate any help in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hchris Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 If you find the answer let us know, there are thousands world wide who would love to hear the answer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I agree. I remember my '24 touring best of all (I now own my fifth early DB, the first "fast four", which is somewhat of a misnomer), ran great and down the road all day long about 40 miles per hour. Push it to 45 and your teeth would be chattering. So, it would be interesting to know what the "certain rpm" is on your car, if it's equivalent to below 40 miles per hour, then you may have an issue, if it's equivalent to anything faster, then it's normal, it's a Dodge Brothers thing.... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cutler Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Balancing is pretty much straight forward....a good electronic scale and an organized sheet of paper listing each components weight, i.e. pistons, wrist pins, connecting rods, rings...effectively all moving parts in the piston cylinder. Take all the weight totals and connect counterweights onto the crankshaft, rotate it with the flywheel on, and see where it stops, assuming you go with a static balance method...drill press the crank until you get the weight to be balanced...the longer the crankshaft (4 cylinders versus 8 cylinders) the more you would want to use dynamic balancing versus static. If you do go with static, in your home shop, you will get most of the up and down shaking out....but if you want the side to side shaking out you will need to get a dynamic balance done...most home shops do not have the equipment to do this. I oversimplified it (intentionally did not write about reciprocating weights and rotating weights), but this is the basic premise. Also, I'm assuming the counterbalance on the '24 is internal on the crank, like the '38... Be sure your flywheel is going to be the final unit when reassembly occurs, some folks figure out later they want to replace the flywheel, after the balance, .... Another good option to do, if you going to spend the money on a balance, then go ahead and do a moly coat (Molybdenum Disulfide), this will reduce wear and friction and is extra protection if oil pressure is ever lost...Another area some folks overlook is the drive shaft and U-joints, balance them while installed...Basically, look at anything spinning in the driveline and consider balancing it (Pulleys, etc) (Disclaimer - For the experts on the forum, I know I left off a lot, and there are many ways to achieve the same results, other than the above description) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) Here is a bit of information for you. https://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/how-to-blueprint-engines-balancing-guide/ But first, everything must be spotlessly clean! Edited February 17, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Roth Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 7 hours ago, trimacar said: I remember my '24 touring best of all (I now own my fifth early DB, the first "fast four", which is somewhat of a misnomer), ran great and down the road all day long about 40 miles per hour. Push it to 45 and your teeth would be chattering. I recall almost buying yoour '24 Touring. In retrospect it could have been a fun entry-level choice, but just didn't have the "pizzaz" I was looking for. The day you pulled it out of the shed there was a nick in a rear fender (from the shed door tapping it?), and what you described as a stuck valve. It was certainly a decent car. Thankfully we later got the '27 Chevy roadster and '17 Franklin 9-A Touring, as well as the '58 Bel-air. On a 1994 trip for our 25th anniversary & 4-cylinder Vintage Chevy Club week at Yellowstone National Park, we overnighted in Jackson Hole, and a DB Club officer offered me a trade straight-up for his beautifully restored '14 DB Touring which had been the cover car for their magazine. I have wondered "what might have been" for that first-year DB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Dodges are famous for stuck valves, I believe, if they sit for any time. My touring and coupe both had that problem. You should have traded for that '14, later Dodges are prevalent, the very early DB is highly sought after and one of the only fours that bring good bucks. The touring had a so-so paint job, too. The Franklin was a solid car, out of the ten car collection I'd bought in North Louisiana. Wonder where it is now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Thanks fellas that’s all very helpful. I understand these old girls have a vibration at certain rev ranges but mine is terrible through most of it. I was going to balance everything myself except the crank , flywheel and front gear. I was going to send that away to a old fella near me. I’ll read all the info on that site and learn a bit more about. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefit Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Please heal me. All these years I was informed the unit on the front of the crankshaft was called a harmonic damper to help with torsional forces of the crankshaft and was not to balance . Many of the external balance was done on the flywheel / flex plate.. The 4 cylinder used a crankshaft that had the the throws in a flat plane each throw had a throw 180 " from the other using the other throw as a counterbalance . Please help me understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) There is much more to balancing an engine than you could really put into a post here. What you do also depends on the number of cylinders. This is generic information (not specific to Dodge Brothers). On a four cylinder: 1) Make all four pistons weigh the same. 2) Make an attachment to measure the weight of the rod ends separately. Maybe hang the rod level with one end tied to a string hung from the ceiling, and the other end on a scale. 3) Make all the rod large ends match in weight, make all the rod small ends match in weight. 4) Send the crank out for balancing, or at least get it checked. There probably wont be much to do unless the crank has counterweights. Counterweights on a four don't help as much as you might think for vibration. They do make life a lot less stressful for the crankshaft and bearings. 5) Get the flywheel and clutch parts spin balanced, preferably separate from each other, so that parts can be disassembled or replaced in the future without screwing up the balance. Get the crank pulley balanced, too. 6) You may hear of "bobweights" used in crank balancing. They are not used on inline fours. One thing to keep in mind, fours are "inherently balanced" to some degree. As one pair of pistons is moving one way, the other pair is doing the opposite. Unfortunately, due to the relative positions of the pistons and the geometry of the crank and rods, a piston is not always moving at the same speed as it's "opposite" piston that is going the other direction. This difference means the vibration does not completely cancel. There is really no way to "balance" this leftover vibration out by simply "balancing" the engine (to get rid of it you need another shaft with weights on it turning at double the speed of the crankshaft. It has been done, but decades later). Many early cars had the engine attached directly to the frame. You are going to feel it. Lighter pistons might help, but wont make it go away. Edited February 18, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 hours ago, Mikefit said: Please heal me. All these years I was informed the unit on the front of the crankshaft was called a harmonic damper to help with torsional forces of the crankshaft and was not to balance . Many of the external balance was done on the flywheel / flex plate.. The 4 cylinder used a crankshaft that had the the throws in a flat plane each throw had a throw 180 " from the other using the other throw as a counterbalance . Please help me understand. These engines don’t have a harmonic balancer. You can see here in the photo it’s a chain sprocket and timing gear. I’m not 100% but I think someone told me the D engine had the 5 main bearings is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefit Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 BLoo that was what I was referring too you made a good point and explained much better than I did. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichBad Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Hi Matt, that reminds me - I was meaning to take a drive to you in my Dodge - would be interesting to compare (and I've got to drop that rubber off). I've had mine completely balanced - crank, flywheel, clutch rods etc and there are still some decent vibes at certain revs. I seem to remember you ruled out all the obvious 'easy' things to check (fan etc). Before you get the engine out may be worth checking the clutch - with the gearbox and clutch removed you can still start and run the engine. Could also check the fly wheel bolts at the same time and that the fly wheel is located correctly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 Thanks for all that detail Bloo it’s all great help in tackling this. What you have said is what I was planning to do. Other than doing a view things separately, which make good sense. I will I’ll do that Rich when I’m pulling it apart. I’ll drop the box and clutch off first and run it. The vibration is the same even when free reving it so that’s a good idea. I should shoot down to your place and go for a drive with you and compare. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 Pulled all the front off my car yesterday so I’m hoping to have the engine out and dismantled today if all goes well. I’m hoping that it is all unbalanced and nothing else is wrong. I’ll post back results once I’ve weighed it all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) Got the engine out and pulled the crank and found I need new bearings. They are original DB bearing caps. So not sure if they are originals or not. Who would know. The head is coming off slowly, it’s soaking in penetrating fluid at the moment. One end has come up about 1/8” so I’ll let it soak overnight and try again. I’ll have to wait until I get it off to find out more. Crank mains are 1.748” Big ends are 1.622” does anyone know if they are original sizes? the crank looks to be in great condition. Edited March 9, 2019 by Mattml430 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 I apologize if I'm hijacking Mattml430's thread, but it seems like I've "always heard" that non-counterweighted crankshafts, like in our DBs, can't be balanced with the entire reciprocating assembly. But I'm not an expert on engine balancing, and I can't remember what the exact reason was, so is that correct? If it is not correct, could somebody explain to me why what I have "always heard" is wrong? Thanks a lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichBad Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 2 hours ago, 22touring said: I apologize if I'm hijacking Mattml430's thread, but it seems like I've "always heard" that non-counterweighted crankshafts, like in our DBs, can't be balanced with the entire reciprocating assembly. But I'm not an expert on engine balancing, and I can't remember what the exact reason was, so is that correct? If it is not correct, could somebody explain to me why what I have "always heard" is wrong? Thanks a lot. 4 cylinder 180degree crank shouldn’t be a problem to balance - and to be honest the fhlywheel is going to soak up a lot on these old girls. Had mine balanced no issues. When you get to non opposing inertia e.g ‘v’s, parallel twins etc (like the old motorbikes) then it’s harder and you have to go with a balance factor to suit the engine/frame/rev range and can never be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, 22touring said: I apologize if I'm hijacking Mattml430's thread, but it seems like I've "always heard" that non-counterweighted crankshafts, like in our DBs, can't be balanced with the entire reciprocating assembly. But I'm not an expert on engine balancing, and I can't remember what the exact reason was, so is that correct? If it is not correct, could somebody explain to me why what I have "always heard" is wrong? Thanks a lot. Doesn't matter if it is counterweighted or not, inline four is what makes the difference. The crank is balanced only to itself. One without counterweights is unlikely to be very far out of balance anyway. Pistons and rods are matched to each other. Edited March 10, 2019 by Bloo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 10, 2019 Author Share Posted March 10, 2019 The head hung on until the the last thread of the studs but finally let go this afternoon. It’s all in pretty good condition other than the top compression ring in number 1 & 2 pistons were broken. I haven’t had a chance to clean it all up yet but will give it all a steam clean tomorrow. I stuck each piston and rod without the end cap on the scales and 3 of them were within about 4 grams roughly which surprised me how close they were, and the other was about 15 grams lighter. I understand I have to do it all a lot more accurately than than but really just wanted to see if there was any huge differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 10, 2019 Author Share Posted March 10, 2019 Pistons & Rings. 1& 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texacola Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 The broken ring may have been the cause of you vibration. I once broke about one inch of the land between two rings that caused a vibration and one heck of a rap at all rpm's. From the sound and vibration I thought I blew a piston. Amazingly it didn't even scour the cylinder wall. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Texacola said: The broken ring may have been the cause of you vibration. I once broke about one inch of the land between two rings that caused a vibration and one heck of a rap at all rpm's. From the sound and vibration I thought I blew a piston. Amazingly it didn't even scour the cylinder wall. Bill Thanks Bill I have also today found 2 cracks in the block that a pretty bad. One in cylinder 2 exhaust valve seat and the other in cylinder 3 exhaust valve seat both sides and across into the cylinder wall. So will need another D block. Edited March 11, 2019 by Mattml430 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 11, 2019 Author Share Posted March 11, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 12, 2019 Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) Wow that's bad luck. You said it was running fine other than the vibration? No telling what surprises lurk under the hood of mine! I better not look.... Did you use magnaflux, penetrant, or just find these with the naked eye? Edited March 12, 2019 by MikeC5 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 12, 2019 Author Share Posted March 12, 2019 6 hours ago, MikeC5 said: Wow that's bad luck. You said it was running fine other than the vibration? No telling what surprises lurk under the hood of mine! I better not look.... Did you use magnaflux, penetrant, or just find these with the naked eye? It is bad luck but if that’s the worst after 90 odd years we should be grateful. They were pretty much visible after I gave it a steam clean. I just went over them with a small fine wire wheel. It ran really well other than the vibration , never blew any smoke. Always started well a definitely didn’t run hot at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Interesting. I hope you are able to source a good block without too much trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 13, 2019 Author Share Posted March 13, 2019 6 hours ago, MikeC5 said: Interesting. I hope you are able to source a good block without too much trouble. Looks like Bob might of found me won which is fantastic. He’s having a look at it for me on the weekend. 👍🏻👍🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 21, 2019 Author Share Posted March 21, 2019 So I’ve ended up with a fast four engine to rebuild. Few chassis adjustments to make it work but I hope it will be better overall. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted March 21, 2019 Share Posted March 21, 2019 If your old engine was not a fast four you better check the mounting before you spend a nickle on this one. I am sure I was told the fast four has a different mounting system and will not fit a chassis not designed for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 22, 2019 Author Share Posted March 22, 2019 On 3/21/2019 at 10:54 PM, nearchoclatetown said: If your old engine was not a fast four you better check the mounting before you spend a nickle on this one. I am sure I was told the fast four has a different mounting system and will not fit a chassis not designed for it. Yes you’re correct, I have to modify the front mount to make it work. I’m using my bell housing back. I’m going to drop the bare block in today to see how it goes so I’ll let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted March 23, 2019 Author Share Posted March 23, 2019 Made some front mounting brackets as close to original as I could. The engine fits in very nicely. I’ll havd to modify the bottom radiator outlet to get it under the timing gear housing but other than that it’s pretty good. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted March 23, 2019 Share Posted March 23, 2019 Glad it's going to work out for you. Hope this engine is OK for you so you can get back on the road. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted April 12, 2019 Author Share Posted April 12, 2019 Picked up another complete engine today. This one still had oil in it and turned over reasonably well with a bit of compression. It has everything on it except the starter and Carby. So I’ll pull it apart on Sunday when I get home and see what it’s like. I might even see if it will fire up after a clean up. Hoping to make one good one out of the 2 I have. Nice little 1900km round trip to get it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Mattml430 said: Nice little 1900km round trip to get it. LoL! You would fall off New Zealand if you drove 950 km in any direction! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 (edited) So we got up early this morning and were home by 7:00am. I ended up with quite a few parts so I had basically the front of a car in the back of my car. I pulled the engine down today and to my surprise it’s in really good condition inside it. It all came apart so easily, a small tap with the rubber hammer and the head came off. The mice and wasps had made a home or two in the manifold but that was about the worst of it. All the bearings so far are in really great condition. I’ll measure the bore tomorrow and check how much wear in it. I’m thinking I might just clean this engine up and put it back together and use it in the car until I get the other one all rebuilt. Edited April 13, 2019 by Mattml430 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichBad Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Looks nice and clean and original. That should come up a treat! thats a long drive! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted April 13, 2019 Author Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 hour ago, RichBad said: Looks nice and clean and original. That should come up a treat! thats a long drive! Yes mate it cleaned up very nicely. That’s after a single degrease. Ended up with a full set of springs , a front axle and wheels. Pretty sure it’s been rebuilt at some stage in its life. Some small marks on the crank where it’s been sitting with out being turned for years but I think they will emery off. Will pull the crank out tomorrow hopefully. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattml430 Posted April 15, 2019 Author Share Posted April 15, 2019 After a complete pull down the engine is in pretty good shape all round. All I’m going to do is hone the bore, new set of rings in it and lap the valves. I will check everything is balanced before reassembling it all. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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