Use Of Premium Fuel

[55Bfred1752]

The owners manual for my recently acquired 1955 Buick with the 322 cu. in. engine recommends the use of premium fuel. How do the octane ratings of fuel sold today compare to the octane  ratings in 1955? What octane fuel should I use in my Buick?

[Beemon]

Use 87 until it knocks, then use 91.

[EmTee]

I'd use ethanol-free, whatever the octane.  In my area the ethanol-free is typically 91.

[packick]

I do the same as EmTee and use ethanol-free in all of my old cars.  I think it is 90 octane in our area.  I use it because ethanol will destroy your fuel pump (and possibly other components) unless they are made to resist the ethanol fuel effects.  I had to replace the fuel pumps in 3 of the 4 vintage cars I own before I switched to ethanol-free gas.  And in one of my old cars. the baffles (if that's what you call them) in the see-through fuel filter had actually come apart and was floating around in the filter's casing.  We have also had problems with our small farm equipment too (i.e., weed whackers, ATVs etc.).  

 

By the way, there is an app you can download on your Smart Phone called "Pure Gas" which will tell you the closest ethanol-free gas stations nearest to you.  This is great to have when you are touring in your old car and want to keep using ethanol-free gas.

Edited October 28, 2018 by packick (see edit history)

[Beemon]

I am too poor to afford ethanol free gas, so I always buy ethanol. ?

[JFranklin]

3 minutes ago, Beemon said:

I am too poor to afford ethanol free gas, so I always buy ethanol. ?

So how will you afford to replace the damage it might cause?

[Bloo]

Good question, but if you are going to actually drive the car, it has to be able to run on whatever is at the pump at any little one horse town you might be in when you need more gas. Here in WA, and probably in the rest of the US, that means 10% ethanol.

 

It does do damage, there is no question about that. I suspect, however, that "pure" gasoline is a myth, and if there is no ethanol, there are other additives, and who knows what those might or might not do?

 

I have had surprisingly little trouble with the 36 Pontiac. Since rebuilding the fuel pump with an "ethanol resistant" diaphragm, getting rid of the electric fuel pump, returning the fuel line routing to stock, and repairing the heat riser, my fuel delivery problems have evaporated.

 

It did have some boiling carburetor symptoms one particular day during our couple of weeks of ~106-108F weather this summer, when the coolant was also near the boiling point. It never stopped running. I currently have a "taxicab" metering rod in it (2 steps lean), and haven't lost any power. I suspect I could go leaner.

 

Ethanol corrodes anything it comes in contact with. I will soon have to pull out the fuel sending unit I rebuilt a year or two ago, as the (original 1936) corks have apparently sunk. I plated the sending unit then with zinc to slow down the corrosion. I have a feeling it is going to be a godawful mess again when I pull it out. Time will tell.

[Joseph P. Indusi]

While we are on the topic of gasoline I am interested to know if there is any definitive information regarding the claim, by some, that the 10% ethanol in the fuel causes our old engines to run hotter than they would on straight gasoline?

Joe, BCA 33493

[Beemon]

7 hours ago, JFranklin said:

So how will you afford to replace the damage it might cause?

 

I have yet to see damage in any of my cars that run on ethanol.

[JFranklin]

When they began adding ethanol to gasoline I lost 1 electric and 2 mechanical fuel pumps, and a gas line on a different car. Ethanol attacks terneplate so gas tanks will see degradation over time.

[auburnseeker]

Ask any small engine shop or marina technician.  You will get an ear full.  Ask the Carb guy on this website.  Ethanol free is available all over the place,  you just have to look for it.  The moisture and short shelf life associated with it,  besides the adverse affects of the alcohol part of ethanol on rubber components in the fuel system and actual corrosion they can cause in potmetal things like carbs is where the problem comes in.  

Many people have reported that running ethanol fuel has resulted in a 10 percent drop in fuel efficiency as well,  which is exactly the difference in cost between real fuel and corn.  I'm surprised the greenies really approve of it,  because it actually is nothing more than watering down fuel so you have to use more.  From people who want to conserve so much you think they would be the ones against it most. 

[55Bfred1752]

All the responses I received regarding the use of premium fuel in my 1955 Buick Super are appreciated. The consensus supports the use of ethanol free fuel for the older cars. If it is available with an octane rating of 90 that may also be sufficient to answer the use of the premium fuel question. Many Thanks. !!!

55Bfred1752

[Frank DuVal]

5 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

 Ethanol free is available all over the place,

 Not in the four counties of Virginia next to DC. where millions of people live. I have to drive to the next county to get ethanol free. Not too bad, count on an hour round trip to get fuel for generators and lawn equipment, so I get a lot each time. and hope it does not go stale before I use it.

 

But for semi-daily driver collector cars? Not an easy task to get ethanol free unless the trip involves going south.

 

Octane requirements vary also due to height at the driving location. I am near sea level, so if the car calls for premium, then usually that means 92/3. On older stuff that was rated 50 years ago, then I will try less and see if it pings.

[avgwarhawk]

22 hours ago, JFranklin said:

So how will you afford to replace the damage it might cause?

 

I have not detected any damage to mechanical items or rubber products with the use of ethanol gas.   I'm not saying ethanol can not cause problems.  I have not experienced any.  Including vapor lock on the 54 and 60.  

 

For the premium fuel question.  1960 401 ruins premium.  1954 264 runs the lower octane.     

[avgwarhawk]

5 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

  Ethanol free is available all over the place,  you just have to look for it.   

 

No, it is not available in my area or any place remotely close to me.    

 

[KongaMan]

No ethanol free gas anywhere near me, either.

 

I did run an unscientific survey on this, though, on a recent cross country trip.  I bought pure gas when available, although it was priced about 20% higher than regular 10% ethanol.  First, that seemed a healthy premium for the extra 10%.  Second, I noticed no increase in MPG or performance.

 

YMMV. 

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

No ethanol free gas anywhere near me, either.

 

I did run an unscientific survey on this, though, on a recent cross country trip.  I bought pure gas when available, although it was priced about 20% higher than regular 10% ethanol.  First, that seemed a healthy premium for the extra 10%.  Second, I noticed no increase in MPG or performance.

 

YMMV. 

I've heard the opposite from many people.  I know my wife's 91 Vw Cabrio pings like mad with ethanol in it,  even 93 octane.  But 91 nonethanol and it's gone.   Stihl Power products say right on them to use nonethanol fuel.  There has to be something behind it from an engineering standpoint that is proven or they wouldn't care.  Could be the warranties they have to honor.   When available,  why take the chance.  I have a friend that is an engineer and ethanol has a lower boiling point than pure fuel so it will cause vapor lock,  just maybe not on every car.  

I do know shelf life seems to be alot better for nonethanol.  I have some power tools I use once a year and maybe even once every few years.  They will fire right up and the gas smells like the day I put it in the tank. Not so much with ethanol.  Makes sense,  vegetables rot. 

Ethanol free fuel is usually easier to find as well if you are near a recreational water area.  Some marinas have on shore pumps. 

Use what you want,  just don't complain when stuff craps out prematurely because of the ethanol you used.   

I know I see a difference when I use anything ethanol.  I have even resorting to filling up at the only station in town with a dedicated pump for nonethanol.  Think about it,  when filling especially small cans,  you get all the gas in the hose before what you selected on those pumps that do all the different kinds of gas out of the same hose.  No sense in paying for 2 gallons of nonethanol if you are only get 1 or less and the rest of whatever crap the other guy (probably 87 octane ethanol) put in his tank. 

[JFranklin]

1 hour ago, KongaMan said:

No ethanol free gas anywhere near me, either.

 

I did run an unscientific survey on this, though, on a recent cross country trip.  I bought pure gas when available, although it was priced about 20% higher than regular 10% ethanol.  First, that seemed a healthy premium for the extra 10%.  Second, I noticed no increase in MPG or performance.

 

YMMV. 

They most just be putting a label on their regular ethanol and stealing from the public!

[JFranklin]

3 hours ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

No, it is not available in my area or any place remotely close to me.    

 

 

Where do you live? maybe we can find you some. Are there any lakes where boaters by supplies?

[KongaMan]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

Stihl Power products say right on them to use nonethanol fuel.  There has to be something behind it from an engineering standpoint that is proven or they wouldn't care.

 

Maybe Stihl can start selling non-ethanol gas at their dealers, because otherwise there is no pure gas available within 150 miles of me.  BTW, I run 10% in my Stihl equipment as a matter of course (not that I have any choice).  It's a rare day when I don't run at least one of them, and they run fine.

 

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

I have some power tools I use once a year and maybe even once every few years.  They will fire right up and the gas smells like the day I put it in the tank. Not so much with ethanol.  Makes sense,  vegetables rot.  

 

Oil comes from plants, too.  

 

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

Use what you want,  just don't complain when stuff craps out prematurely because of the ethanol you used. 

Again, it's not a matter of want in these parts.  Even if it were, I'd likely still be time and money ahead to, say, replace a fuel pump rather than going out of my way and spending a premium for pure gas.  Think about it: at $.30 a gallon difference, that's $6 for a 20 gallon tank.   The fuel pump is $20-25.  If I can get through 4 tanks of gas without rotting out the diaphragm, I'm money ahead.  As it sits, it's been 20 years since I replaced the fuel pump.  Even if I get bit now, one could still make the case that the prevention would have been worse than the cure.

[auburnseeker]

Until you have to replace the fuel tank and carburetor, then the car is laid up for repairs as well,  probably in the middle of the season when you really want to be using it as well.  

8 minutes ago, KongaMan said:

Oil comes from plants, too.  

 

Yeah but those plants fermented millions of years ago.  They weren't just juiced from fresh corn.  They finished rotting long before the car was a gleam in an inventors eye.

I never figured out how much the difference was between using crappy and real fuel.  I guess I just don't drive enough miles a year to be concerned with an extra 20 to 100 in fuel cost.  I guess it's kind of the same philosophy with well I can buy the cheapest oil on the shelf or the stuff I know is right and it won't make a big difference until it does.  I know every repair I have ever done,  started out as a little job and ended up as a major overhaul of the system and associated parts before I was done (because I figured it was the right way to be done),  often costing much more than that say 20 to 30 dollar fuel pump cost.  Besides a tow back to the shop to fix it unless I have a spare in the trunk.  I have decided for all my short 100 mile or less drives,  I carry few tools and really no parts.  It's much easier to call the hook if i have to and pay the bill so I can fix it right at home in my shop on my time,  rather than on the side of a busy narrow road while cars are screaming by and people keep stopping to tell me looks like you broke down.  

That's the good thing with living here in the USA.  we can each do it our own way.

 

[KongaMan]

2 minutes ago, auburnseeker said:

I never figured out how much the difference was between using crappy and real fuel.  I guess I just don't drive enough miles a year to be concerned with an extra 20 to 100 in fuel cost.  I guess it's kind of the same philosophy with well I can buy the cheapest oil on the shelf or the stuff I know is right and it won't make a big difference until it does.

 

But that's not the true calculation. Back at the ancestral manse, I can get real gas.  But it's 10 miles away, which would mean a 20 mile trip to fill up.  That's a gallon and a half of gas right there.  OTOH, there's a Marathon station on the corner two blocks away.  An apples to apples comparison would be if the Marathon station sold real gas and I was too cheap to buy it.  As it is, there's a whole 'nother level of time and cost to consider.

 

Generally speaking, I don't cheap out on things. I'd rather do it right than do it over.  However, there's also a point at which you have take your ROI into account.  And in this case, it's not clear that the juice is worth the squeeze.

[carbking]

 This was a recent topic on a different old car forum, below is my response:

Here in central Missouri, we have, at the pumps:

Regular - 87 AKI octane, with 10 percent ethanol

Regular+ - 88 AKI octane, mixture of Regular 87 (10 percent), and Premium 93 AKI (90 percent)

Premium - 93 AKI octane, no ethanol

I thought that the lower grades had no ethanol, but the statements on the pumps were misleading, so I asked.

According to the refiner, the premium gas is basically available for the older collector cars (many that do not need premium). The 87, with ethanol, is available for those that want cheap.

As far as is the ethanol "cleaner" than non-ethanol, the newest EPA studies, which according to the internet aren't that new, but were politically pigeon-holed for several years, clearly show that the E-10 is dirtier than E-0.

Our grandchildren will curse this generation for using ethanol because of the pollution it causes.

I finally gave up and started using E-10 in most of my carbureted engines. Most of the small engines do not have sufficient compression to take advantage of the octane in the premium (non-ethanol) fuel.

I use more fuel, but still cheaper as the E-10 is about $1.25/gallon cheaper than the E-0.

So far, the only GOOD thing I have found (other than cheap) about the E-10, is my John Deere (fuel injected) L & G starts sputtering if I try to mow in sunshine when the ambient is 90 degrees F. or higher when using E-10. It runs fine on E-0 at ambient above 100 degrees F.

"Honey, I have to come in for awhile, the mower is giving me problems in the heat", I'll finish the yard when it cools off"!

Maybe if we go to E15, the mower will quite at 85 degrees instead of 90

Locally, when E-85 came out, there were a number of stations selling it. Today, because of the total lack of demand, I do not know of a station within a 50 mile radius that sells E-85.

Your liquid-cooled carbureted vehicles can have the carburetors recalibrated to use E-10 or E-15. Your mileage will decrease. Your power (on an engine designed for pump gasoline) will also decrease. Air-cooled engines can be a different story!

 

Your BEST insurance to DELAY, not stop, the long term effects of ethanol on the carburetor body, is to NEVER allow the ethanol-laced fuel to stay in the vehicle for more than 6 weeks. Drive more, have more fun!

Jon

[carbking]

And the original poster asked about which fuel to use.

 

The link is to a short article on octane ratings:

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Octane.htm

 

If one will use one's favorite search engine, and search for RON MON AKI one can find charts which approximate octane ratings in the different systems for the same fuel.

 

Jon.

[Frank DuVal]

Wow, that's weird. 87 is the low octane here, as we are near sea level (compared to the Rockies....), but the mid grade is 89. And we have premium of either 92 or 93 octane. Al E10. Missouri only jumps one octane point from regular to mid grade, and then offers nothing in E10  for all the premium vehicles still being sold to the high end market? The premium E10 runs about 60 cents more than regular. My Park Avenue Ultras need premium to get the horsepower out of them, knock sensors really work!?

 

Within 60 miles or so the highest non ethanol I see on pure-gas.org is 90 octane, not even enough for driving a Corvair in the summer around here, except for the low horsepower 80s and 95s.

 

BTW, Stihl dealers DO sell non-ethanol fuel at their dealers. In one gallon cans on the shelf with the oil already in it. `$20.........?  It would only take $200 to put 10 gallons in the car.

Or you can get it in quarts at several places for 6-8 dollars.

 

"Pure" gasoline goes bad. Some of it goes bad quick. I have seen this over the last 50 years........  The smell is terrible. Hard shellac type sediment in carburetor bowls. This is why they made Stabil years ago! They are celebrating their 60th anniversary.?

[Beemon]

You know, I do recall an algae reef growing in my float bowls.

[avgwarhawk]

14 hours ago, JFranklin said:

Where do you live? maybe we can find you some. Are there any lakes where boaters by supplies?

Eastern shore of MD is the closest and not worth the trip as I will burn up the full tank driving home from the station. 

[auburnseeker]

1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said:

Eastern shore of MD is the closest and not worth the trip as I will burn up the full tank driving home from the station. 

Well vote accordingly in your future elections and maybe it will be available again,  everywhere. 

[avgwarhawk]

2 hours ago, auburnseeker said:

Well vote accordingly in your future elections and maybe it will be available again,  everywhere. 

 

In and around the Baltimore/DC area...the likelihood of bringing back non-ethanol gas for cars is zero to none!    

Edited October 30, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

So, I did a cursory look again for non-ethanol in my area.  There is plenty on the eastern short of MD(runs the farm equipment in this highly utilized agricultural area).   These places are much to far to logically go fill the tank and arrive home on E!  There are also non-ethanol pumps for the marinas around the Chesapeake Bay.  These of course are on the water servicing boats.   Our land yachts will not make way to these pumps.   Then I found Sunoco in my neighborhood that sells non-ethanol fuels for race cars.   95 octane(the lowest offered)  $75.00 for 5 gallons.  Gulp.......        

Edited October 30, 2018 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

34 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

In and around the Baltimore/DC area...the likelihood of bringing back non-ethanol gas for cars is zero to none!    

 

Ditto for the left coast.  The locals pols are more likely to further restrict gas than to expand availability.

[carbking]

Frank - the farmers that sell it are smart enough not to use it

 

No demand, no supply!

 

Jon.

[buick man]

… small craft airplanes sit on the tarmac for long durations and not are air cooled either.  Marine engines sit for long periods of time a well.  Go to your local municipal airport and get 4 5-gallon gerry cans full of the 100 or 110 octane leaded or local marina and get pure unleaded non-OH fuel and use that fuel when storing the vehicle … or use it to "cut" into your regular gas mix during the summer R-OH or pure non R-OH gas sold by your local pump jokey. 

About a 10% mix ratio and your factory compression/spark advance pinking and R-OH percolation problems should cease or be minimal at best.  Also keep in mind that one cannot add anything in any ratio to R-OH fuel to keep it from what it does best, namely sucking up the moisture out of the atmosphere or from acting as a corrosive low pH solvent on rubber, plastic, epoxy, urethanes, enamels, tin metals and porous metals. 

[dmfconsult]

We are blessed up here on the west coast (north of the border), every Chevron carries Ethanol free 94 octane fuel marketed as “supreme plus”. It’s even on its own hose. A little more pricey, about $1 gallon more, but given the Buick’s don’t get used much, I don’t mind the extra few bucks a tank. 

 

Edited November 5, 2018 by dmfconsult (see edit history)