Oil (Groan)

[Dan_T]

Apologies if this subject causes a groan amongst you all, but I am trying to find some info about the recommended oil to use in my 1927 Buick Master Six (128" Tourer)? As these cars are pretty rare in the UK there aren't many people that know much about them on this side of the pond. I can't find any info in the Buick Reference book that came with the car and I have only owned her a few months as I bought her from auction in November, so was unable to ask the previous owner what he had been using.

 

I was thinking about using an SAE 40 oil (not sure if you have the same ratings for oil in the US) and she will be run in the summer months mostly witha temperature range of about 8ºC - 28ºC (45ºF - 85ºF).

 

The car was originally an Australian car and only came into the UK about 10 years ago, but a lovely old thing and I am very much looking forward to putting some miles on her.

 

Many thanks in advance, regards, Dan

[JFranklin]

If the engine is clean just use your favorite brand 10-30 or 10-40 oil. If it is not clean, be nice to it and clean it out and then use these oils. These cars when new used a light oil.

Edited January 18, 2018 by JFranklin (see edit history)

[J.H.Boland]

This topic has been beaten to death over the years. Since there are almost no modern auto oils still using zinc, which is required on pre 1980's engines,most of the guys here in Ontario are using Rotella 15W40 diesel oil.It works fine,is readily available,and can be bought on sale at times through auto parts stores.If you want to run the car in cold weather with it though,you might have to light a fire under the oil pan !

Sweet car !

 

Jim

[37_Roadmaster_C]

I would recomend a quality oil recomended for diesel engines, in a viscosity appropriate for the temperature. I am not sure what brands are available in the UK. The zinc issue is basicly handled with a diesel oil. The worst oil you can buy today is much better than the best available in the 20's.  I mainly replied to this post just to say, "Beautiful Car". Have fun...

[Hubert_25-25]

I think your car looks great. Thanks for including the picture.  Congratulations.  I also agree with the Rotella T 15W40 diesel oil.  Hugh

[Spinneyhill]

Firstly, search the Technical forum above. There is a request such as this about once a month.

 

Secondly, the aim of oil is to lubricate, which minimises wear as well. Most wear occurs on cold start, so you should use an oil with a low first number (before the W).  Think of the W as Winter = cold. Almost engines have been designed for about SAE 30 oil so you should use something like a 5W-30. These numbers refer to viscosity so a higher number means a "thicker" oil that is harder to pump. You want something that is very easy to pump on cold start, hence the low number before the W.

 

As said above, the amount of zinc in oil is reducing over time. To get maximum zinc, use a diesel oil of CI-4 (or CJ-4) rating. These are basically tractor oils. The zinc may aid your flat tappets, although they do not work hard so it is debatable if you need a lot of zinc.

 

To learn a bit about viscosity and zinc, read Richard Widman's paper about it at http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html.

 

Thirdly, if you really want to minimise wear, use a synthetic oil. Wear tests show that ANY synthetic oil is better at minimising wear than ALL mineral oils. And you don't really need to worry about zinc in these oils, so just buy a high API-rated SAE 5W-30. If the engine is very worn, use a 5W-40, and I mean very worn, not just a little bit.

 

Lastly, my story. On the basis of my reading after questions such as yours a few years ago, I changed from a 20W-50 to 5W-30 oil for my 1930 Dodge 8. The overall oil pressure is much more stable.

[C Carl]

 Welcome to AACA forums , Dan ! Is Amsoil available over there ? If so the answer is simple and unequivocal. Amsoil Z-Rod has been formulated specifically for YOUR car. Please look it up. The right amount of zinc and phosphorus , and the best corrosion protection during the inevitable lay up periods. I have no affiliation whatsoever with Amsoil. I just use the best lubricants I can get. You must also use Synthetic grease.

 

My my arthritis is bothering me , so I would like to refer you to something I just wrote on this subject down below in Dodge & Dodge Brothers under CHRYSLER PRODUCTS. The title of the topic is "Multi vis vs. oil pressure?".

 

if you do not know the maintenance history on this old car , you should drop the pan and totally clean out the basement and oil pump pickup. Check your bearings by pulling two rod caps and one main cap (rear ? I don't know what is the most vulnerable main bearing on these cars. Someone may chime in). Examine carefully , and measure or Plastigage your clearances. If all good , zip it back up. If the bearings show a little scuffing and pitting , and are near the limits , you might have to check all the bearings. My 1927 Cadillac was so clean , and the first Rod bearing was perfect , so I skipped the next step and put it back together. It continues to run flawlessly after 3500 miles of subsequent driving , much of which was cruise speed in temps in the 90s , and over 100 at times. This car , and yours , are very strong vehicles. Hmmmm............. I just realized you do not know my car. To further welcome you here , in gratitude for your including a pic of your old beauty , I think you will enjoy a couple pics of mine. The other guys and gals have seen these pics too many times , and already know it is an unrestored original. Particularly as this is a General Motors cousin , of the same year , to your Buick , I am sure this will encourage you to tour your new love !    - Carl 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by C Carl
Spelling (see edit history)

[ols car dog]

Spinneyhill ,

can you elaborate on your reason for switching from 20-50 oil to5-w 30oil.I find it to be an interesting topic.

 

Ken

[Terry Stock]

http://penriteclassicoils.co.uk/

has these recommendations:

http://www.datateck.com.au/Lube/PenritePre1970/

Drill down to Buick and then select Master 6.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Terry Stock (see edit history)

[C Carl]

What is the term I am grasping for , Terry ? Re : Penrite recommendations ? Poppycock. Please , all ,; take Dr. Spinneyhill's advice and read Richard Widman's 33 page paper. You will then know enough about motor oil to make your own decision. I have read it twice , and it is time to do so again. FULL synthetic , preferably Amsoil , which has properties beyond its nominal viscosity rating. Widman , at least at the time of his paper , is not affiliated with Amsoil either. And yes , I do know Southerners who run heavy Penrite dinosaur lard. I wouldn't. I do use their steering gear lube. Again , READ WIDMAN !     - CC

[27donb]

6 hours ago, Dan_T said:

Apologies if this subject causes a groan amongst you all, but I am trying to find some info about the recommended oil to use in my 1927 Buick Master Six (128" Tourer)? As these cars are pretty rare in the UK there aren't many people that know much about them on this side of the pond. I can't find any info in the Buick Reference book that came with the car and I have only owned her a few months as I bought her from auction in November, so was unable to ask the previous owner what he had been using.

 

I was thinking about using an SAE 40 oil (not sure if you have the same ratings for oil in the US) and she will be run in the summer months mostly witha temperature range of about 8ºC - 28ºC (45ºF - 85ºF).

 

The car was originally an Australian car and only came into the UK about 10 years ago, but a lovely old thing and I am very much looking forward to putting some miles on her.

 

Many thanks in advance, regards, Dan

 

Dan, 

 

Beautiful car!  Could you please post more pictures of it? 

 

We love pictures! 

[raydurr]

My 1929 Master gets 15W-40 diesel oil plus a can of STP.  My engine in far from new or fresh. Engines with wear don't mind heavier oils. If not using a multi viscosity oil I would use SAE 40. I am not sure how important zinc is with my roller cam followers. I would supplement with zinc to be safe for sure. Theres my 2 cents worth.

[Spinneyhill]

raydurr, the STP is a waste of money. You are just adding a viscosifier to increase the viscosity of the oil. Why? Engines don't "mind" anything: they wear if the oil is not appropriate. How do you know? Early overhaul.

 

12 hours ago, ols car dog said:

Spinneyhill ,

can you elaborate on your reason for switching from 20-50 oil to5-w 30oil.I find it to be an interesting topic.

 

Ken

Simple. 20W-50 is too viscous! Read Widman's paper. I had variable oil pressure, very high on startup and some noise on startup. With 5W, startup is quiet. Oil pressure is almost the same at startup and after warm running. I often turn it over for a few seconds with the ignition off before starting, especially if it has sat a while, just to pump a bit of oil around.

 

10 hours ago, C Carl said:

Penrite recommendations ? Poppycock.

Exactly. They would have me running 20W-60! It is an engine, not a gearbox! I am astounded that Penrite told my friend to use that near-grease in his MG TD!

 

I hope this makes sense. I am tired so probably a bit terse and full of typos. Sorry.

[C Carl]

Yes , and I used the link Terry provided. Penrite recommends a mineral 25W/70 , "very low detergent" oil for the engine in my 1927 Cadillac. That oil would not flow sufficiently at speed to cool the bearings. I would be interested to have them explain themselves. At this point , I consider "three strikes" , they are out. STRIKE ONE : Non Synthetic. STRIKE TWO : Very low detergent. STRIKE THREE : Viscosity puts it out of the operating envelope. They must have a position to justify this. I still do believe they have a good steering box lubricant , but I am going to look around.    - Carl 

[Spinneyhill]

5 hours ago, C Carl said:

I still do believe they have a good steering box lubricant , but I am going to look around.

 

Yes, but now they don't label it as "Steering Box Lube". They call it semi-fluid grease, which it is. Look for NLGI 00 grease formulated for applications with high contact pressure wiping motions.

[Spinneyhill]

With reference to "recommendations" such as those from Penrite, I think the oil companies, to some degree, say what they think the questioner might want or be expecting to hear. It is widely "known", mainly fallaciously, that early engines have higher internal clearances.

 

I am also a bit upset that The Filling Station continue to peddle on their web site the fallacy that one should use non-detergent oil. Total claptrap. If you want rubbish oil, the oil companies will make it for you.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

 

Yes, but now they don't label it as "Steering Box Lube". They call it semi-fluid grease, which it is. Look for NLGI 00 grease formulated for applications with high contact pressure wiping motions.

 

I use John Deere "corn head" grease for my steering gears.  About $4.00/tube at the John Deere dealer.

[Brian_Heil]

The best advise was given above and you can all do it and it's free, and it was for 'cold' starts.  Crank your engine until you see oil pressure on the gauge and then set the choke and flip on the ignition.

 

I took the Buick 1923 recommended oil viscosity number and converted it to SAE weight some years ago and it worked out to 20 or 21.  There were no multi weights back then as you know.  Not saying you should run out and look for 20W, in many places, it's all they had back in the day.  Today's modern multi viscosity oils are far superior.

 

Detergent oil.  If you don't know what's inside your engine and pan for goop and sludge, shame on you.  Get to work, get in there, find out and get cleaning.  "Detergent oil ruined my engine..'  NO, you did by being lazy and leaving all those years of crud in there.  I'm amazed at the number of 'car guys' who have never even dropped a pan.

 

Synthetic oil.  Wonderful stuff.  Not worth it for me.  I change my oil about every ~500 miles.  I have no filter but a very strong magnet in the pan.  I get 125 mile/qt.  I buy a case of 12, 6 qt. go in the pan and 6 on the shelf.  When the 6 on the shelf are gone I'm overdue for a change.

 

Not going to tell you what viscosity you should run or what brand to buy.  That's like telling you to only date blondes over redheads.

 

Stick to a name brand with the API Star Burst Symbol.

 

Synthetic blends are mostly non-synthetic.  Funny how that works.  Read the label.

 

What do/did I do?  I married a blonde.  Best thing I ever did.  'Her husband' has been running modern, detergent, non synthetic, 20w50 in his splash dipper 1923 for 22 years and 30,000+ miles and he only drives the car in the warm months.  He always waits to see pressure on the gauge while cranking before he flips on the ignition (a carryover from his hotrod days) He uses Wolf's Head.  Why?  His neighbor owns an auto parts store and Wolf's is his low cost, name brand, API rated oil and he gets it at-cost and the neighbor delivers it to my back stoop and I put a check in his screen door the next day.  Better than Amazon and he's been doing it for 22 years!

Edited January 19, 2018 by Brian_Heil
typo (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

And the Zinc question.  Believe a '27 Buick is still running roller lifters.  When did Buick go flat tappets?

[Frank DuVal]

And of course, in 1927, oil had not yet been introduced to zinc.....

 

It is an anti-wear additive, but didn't get married to motor oil until the 40s, and even then in small percentages.Supposedly not until the higher compression engines in the 50s did valve lifter/cam wear become noticeable so zinc content went up. Your '27 valve springs can not be that high of a spring constant.

 

Most anything you buy today is better than 1927 "original equipment" oil!

[Spinneyhill]

4 hours ago, Brian_Heil said:

I took the Buick 1923 recommended oil viscosity number and converted it to SAE weight some years ago and it worked out to 20 or 21

 

It is quite difficult to get anything very accurate in that conversion because the test methods have changed (and they aren't really compatible) as have the definitions. I believe the first SAE viscosity numbers became available in 1924 and they were revised in 1938 to come into effect in 1939. Reference tables were printed for correlating Saybolt visocity to SAE viscosity numbers -  I have such a table in a text book written in 1940.

 

Terms such as "medium body" and "heavy body" were used prior to the SAE numbers being established. My 1930 Dodge 8 manual says engine oil should be Medium or Heavy Body Engine Oil (S.A.E. Viscosity No. 30 or 40) in the summer.  For winter use, Medium Body engine oil, S.A.E. Viscosity No. 10 or No. 20) with low cold test for below freezing temperatures. Perhaps you see there an inkling of the development of multigrade oils later. Also note the range of "medium body" oil: S.A.E. 10 to 30! Just using the numbers alone, one might say use a modern 10W-30 or -40 oil.

[Brian_Heil]

My Mark’s Handbook is at the office. Perhaps someone else can re-run my calculations of 20 years ago?

Edited January 20, 2018 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Brian_Heil]

Who needs Marks. We have Google. 

 

50 Saybolt seconds at 210 F is 7 centistokes

 

7 centistokes is 18.8 SAE wt.

 

Why even Bob’s the Oil Guy’s chart agreees with me. Now I can go to bed.  Ha. 

 

Must have used 55 Saybolt the last time. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Brian_Heil (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

53 minutes ago, Brian_Heil said:

7 centistokes is 18.8 SAE wt

 

Really? But SAE doesn't work like that? Surely Bob's chart shows that your 50 to 55 Saybolt = 7 CSt to 8.7 CSt and is in the SAE 20 number band. SAE 18.8 isn't defined?

 

I have not seen SAE numbers defined like that. My reading is that they are an arbitrary set of numbered divisions. I hope I remember right.

[Larry Schramm]

Maybe this will make it easier to read Brian's post.

 

[Brian_Heil]

Thanks Larry, not the first time I've been sideways.  Ha.

 

The Marks Standard Handbook for Mechanical Engineers has similar charts, and when I did this 20 years ago, there was no Google.

 

SpinnyHill here is the first link I found to take 50 Saybolt at 210 F to Centistokes:

 

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/viscosity-converter-d_413.html

 

Here's the next one I used to go from 7 Centistokes to SAE:

 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=634236

 

Then I saw Bob's chart which agreed with my calcs. and is a good summary chart to read across:

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

 

 

The whole point in this is, Buick validated these early engines on something around an SAE 20, and a pretty poor oil at that compared to today's oils with all the VI improvers, additive packages, anti foam, detergents . . . .  That's why the bearings are 2 inches wide, and the cam has rollers, not flat tappets and the rings are darn near a 1/2 inch wide, etc etc..   That's what I was getting at.  Some people only want to run SA non detergent straight weights or real heavy weights and as was pointed out above you can get in trouble with cold start starvation if you are too high a viscosity or loss of film and pressure at temperature if you are too low. 

 

Pick a quality, name brand, multi viscosity oil in a range for your ambient of operation and change it frequently.  (oil is cheap, have you rebuilt and engine recently, ouch)

 

I've mentioned the following oil story before.  When we did all the dyno validation on the 1988 3800 it was on run-of-the-mill Mobil 10w30.  (Not Mobil 1).  Why regular old Mobil 10w30 running in dyno engines that had to go 1200 hours at W.O.T. cycling between peak H.P. and peak torque with the manifolds glowing red along with parts of the head?  It was the cheapest oil that met all the GM, SAE and API specs at the time.  We bought it by the railroad tanker full as factory fill and even today, we still validate with whatever 'factory fill' is.  Just like how I buy my oil from my neighbor.  And since we never trusted anybody and wanted to always know, we had our Chemistry Lab sample and verify every rail tanker load that we were getting and kept reference samples of every delivery too.  Still doing that too.

[Dan_T]

Thanks Guys for your warm welcomes and all your responses -very interesting indeed (and very useful). Interesting to hear your comments on the Penrite brand, which is available here in the UK - shall be avoiding that with the points raised! I am researching oil here, armed with quite a bit of info I didn't know, so thanks.

 

I will drop the sump in the spring when it warms up a little here, as suggested by C Carl, as I don't know the history of the car since it's been in the UK, other than the previous owner, registered it here in 2012 and has done less than 250m miles since! I have never heard of putting a magnet into the sump (oil pan) before. It makes really good sense and someting I will look at. I assume you just find a good quality magnet and pop it into the oil pan and re-fit, having given it a good clean out first?

 

I have found Bob's Automobila store online, which seems to stock a good amount of Buick pre-war parts and it lists the sump gasket at $50 which seems pretty expensive, but I suppose that's the going rate. I also need to order a Shop manual for her, as the Reference book she came with doesn't give you much technical info.

 

If anyone can reccomend any other good dealers who stock parts for older Buicks, I would be most grateful as my previous car, a 1932 Austin 10/4, was really easy to find parts for as she was British made and supported by a very active club here. As previously mentioned older American cars are pretty rare in the UK and spares etc virtually non existant, so I am sure I will have a few technical and spares related questions going forward.

 

Pretty foul weather here this weekend, so lit the stove in the workshop and got on with a few jobs on her -roll on the spring, when I can get some miles on her...

 

[Spinneyhill]

Penrite's oil is OK. I am using it for the time being (HPR5). But their advice is suspect!

 

If your engine sump has bits in it for which you need a magnet, it is in serious trouble and probably too late! It is better to catch it before it comes to that. If the oil has any silvery sheen to it when you remove it, it contains metal so get an oil test to find out what. Then plan on finding the problem, which will probably mean a spot of close engine internal inspection. As well, the magnet will only pick up iron, not aluminium (think Al pistons) or Babbitt.

 

You can, of course, make your own sump gasket. You have the sump to draw around. Buy a roll of cork and make a gasket in several pieces with dovetail joints.

 

No doubt you know, but be careful with fire and cars in the same room. These cars have vented gas caps and sometimes leak petrol, esp. round the carburetor.