trimacar Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 51 minutes ago, ejboyd5 said: Now I'm really curious. Just what is it that you are doing? How about some pictures? I will send pictures once I am successful and thus won't become a laughing stock. What is a laughing stock, anyway? My 1910 Buick Model 16 is a four cylinder engine, cast in pairs. Thus, each of the two blocks, or jugs, have two pistons in them. On each side of each jug, there are two casting holes, thus eight in total. A "casting hole" is what a lot of people call the "freeze plug hole", the initial purpose of this hole has nothing to do with freezing and everything to do with access to the inner water jacket of the blocks. Each hole is threaded, NPT 1 -1/4 inch, and each hole has a square drive plug in it. These are new jugs, and the old plugs out of the original jugs are non-removable at this point in time. Thus, new plugs were bought, but the problem is that these new plugs hit the outer cylinder wall before they seal the hole. Thus, each plug had to be cut, the cut was in to the square drive, the back end then welded/brazed shut. The plugs don't start well into the tapped hole with these modifications, thus I'm doing some thread chasing. Does all that make sense? Again, I'll post pictures when I feel successful. I've already done one plug, and it's real close to having the right threads, just needs to be cut a shade further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ols car dog Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Use some of that CAJUN expertise and you will be fine Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 Maybe a better approach would have been to make new ones from scratch. Maybe not. Might still come to that. Good luck..........Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 16 minutes ago, Bhigdog said: Maybe a better approach would have been to make new ones from scratch. Maybe not. Might still come to that. Good luck..........Bob That was discussed at length with my machinist friend, and modification seemed to be the best route to go. One of the factors is the fact the plug has a 3/4 inch square drive in the exposed end. Right now I have one that fits well and two that are almost there, so making progress! It's a one hour job that shouldn't take me more than eight hours, I GAR-ONT-TEE....Mahn, I need Pierre and Boudreaux helpin' me on dis one, dat would shore speed dis process up to twice as long...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 19, 2018 Share Posted January 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, trimacar said: One of the factors is the fact the plug has a 3/4 inch square drive in the exposed end. Almost always more than one way to skin a cat. Some better than others and some more necessary than others. I might have solved the Square drive problem by fabricating the plug in two pieces and making the 3/4" drive with a tenon than was TIGed or silver brazed into the plug. Just sayin. If your plan works it's likely the least time consuming................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 19, 2018 Author Share Posted January 19, 2018 (edited) The 3/4 drive in the plug is female, if that makes a difference to your plan. Yes, I agree there's always more than one way to skin a cat, the hard part is finding someone to HOLD the cat......thanks! dc I guess you could use the tapered, threaded, end of a piece of pipe, then machine a round plug with a broached square hole, weld into the pipe, and seal the back of the square hole. The other restraint is that the entire plug depth can only be about 1/2 inch, so some of this plug disappears.... Edited January 19, 2018 by trimacar (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, trimacar said: if that makes a difference to your plan Yup, that's a complication. I pictured a standard male drive lug 1 hour ago, trimacar said: I guess you could use the tapered, threaded, end of a piece of pipe, then machine a round plug with a broached square hole, weld into the pipe, and seal the back of the square hole Likely the least best way to do the skinning. 1 hour ago, trimacar said: the hard part is finding someone to HOLD the cat Yup, clamping, holding, fixturing is often 90% of the problem. It looks like you're skinning as best as it gets for what you got. I can see other ways but more time consuming/expensive as in single pointing the threads and plunge EDMing the socket Have fun that's the most important part..........Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 I know you are only chasing the threads but you can buy a small squirt bottle of Oatley Thread Cutting Oil at Lower or Home Depot for about $7.00. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 (edited) I once met with a client and said the phrase "There is more then one way to skin a cat" and she looked at me and seriously asked me "What do you have against cats?" Turns out she was a cat lover and we didn't do any business... Edited January 20, 2018 by DAVES89 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 1 hour ago, DAVES89 said: I once met with a client and said the phrase "There is more then one way to skin a cat" and she looked at me and seriously asked me "What do you have against cats?" Turns out she was a cat lover and we didn't do any business... Likely did you a favor..............Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 A male drive lug wouldn't work, nor is it original. The space between jugs is maybe half an inch, so these plus need to be darn near flush with surface. As to the cat comment, a lot of fun and diversity of life is being sucked out by things taken literally and every word or phrased picked apart. A friend recently overheard in a restaurant one young guy tell another young guy "keep your cotton pickin' hands off my roll", and the guy uttering the phrase was then accused of being racist. Sheesh. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vermontboy Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 4 hours ago, trimacar said: As to the cat comment, a lot of fun and diversity of life is being sucked out by things taken literally and every word or phrased picked apart. A friend recently overheard in a restaurant one young guy tell another young guy "keep your cotton pickin' hands off my roll", and the guy uttering the phrase was then accused of being racist. Sheesh. None other than our beloved Ralph Nader said in a recent interview that the problem with today's' youth is that their skin is so thin it can be blistered by moonbeams. I am almost beginning to like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 Well, happy to report success. Piece of pipe for a handle for the die, then pipe clamped in my small vise. I have other vices, but that's a different story. Reversed dies. Thanks for advice on correct order for the four die pieces! Threaded them deep as they would go, and all fit fine! Thanks for all the advice and help! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 Nothing succeeds like success..............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 What did you use as thread sealant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 I haven't sealed them yet. Since it's permanent, maybe JB Weld. Suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 loctite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 5 hours ago, trimacar said: Since it's permanent, Famous last words??? Speaking personally I try to never put something together in such a manner that it can't be undone....................Bob 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 I wouldn't use JB Weld for anything... and nothing is truly permanent. How about Gasolia... it's a thick red pipe thread sealant varnish and I think it was actually invented in period for exactly that job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 20, 2018 Author Share Posted January 20, 2018 Gasoila would be a good choice, I have that in stock......a friend of mine told ne JBWeld is removable with heat....but these plugs will never be removed in my lifetime, so I don't mind an SEP engineering solution (Someone Else's Problem)...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 17 minutes ago, trimacar said: .but these plugs will never be removed in my lifetime Unless one leaks. Just sayin...................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 20, 2018 Share Posted January 20, 2018 I think the biggest headache in early car restoration is dismantling something that someone put together "permanently." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I'd use blue Loctite, also treat the threads to Loctite cleaner. I would NOT use the English "Staking" of threads method of locking things in place. Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Couldn't help myself, had to Google Model 16 Buick engine. Yes, I guess this one should be scrapped since that upper hose clamp is wrong. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Interesting. The Gasoila I have is white. They have many products listed on their website. 3 hours ago, trimacar said: I don't mind an SEP engineering solution (Someone Else's Problem) Well, since I didn't see a smiley face after this, I can say your work ethic just dropped in my opinion. Insert sad smiley here. We are not building used cars for sale at the local untrustworthy lot! But, despite the comment, epoxy or JB weld can be removed with heat. Heat from a propane torch loosens the epoxy we use at work on SS plumbing fittings. R&D work, so they do not like leaks, but are always changing things! Most people heat things that do not unscrew easy. So I would not consider this an SEP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 (edited) My comment was tongue in cheek. However the plugs are installed, they won't fail for a long, long, time. I figure the SEP is at 60 to 80 years from now......The SEP comment was a joke in my industrial career, but one I never followed, only laughed at. If you follow my comments, you'll notice I don't use emoticons or whatever they're called. My work ethic is healthy, but I appreciate your concern! Yes, at 600 degrees F JB Weld will give way..... And by the way, that's not a Model 16 engine, but rather a later one with the external water pump drive. Maybe 1911 or 1912..... The Model 16 (and 17) of 1909 and 1910 drive the water pump through the side of the crankcase, driven by a gear on the camshaft. Edited January 21, 2018 by trimacar (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Even the red "permanent" locktite can be remove with torch heat. I'm not sure if the blue would be right for this application because of the heat. Maybe someone who has made the effort to read the specs can say for sure, but it doesn't seem right to use the blue here to me, being it is a cylinder wall which gets hot. Blue - Service Temperature: -65°F (-54°C) to 300°F (149°C) - Specs - http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_BLUE_tds.pdf Red - Loctite® Threadlocker Red 271™ is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. Loctite® Threadlocker Red 271™ is designed for the permanent locking and sealing of threaded fasteners. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces. It protects threads from rust and corrosion and prevents loosening from shock and vibration. It is only removable once cured by heating up parts to 500°F http://www.loctiteproducts.com/tds/T_LKR_RED_tds.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 55 minutes ago, trimacar said: The SEP comment was a joke in my industrial career, but one I never followed, only laughed at. Excellent! Yes, from reading your posts it seemed out of place. I got used to using these things: years ago on another forum because typing quick does not show inflection and caused some misunderstandings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 1 hour ago, trimacar said: And by the way, that's not a Model 16 engine, but rather a later one with the external water pump drive. Maybe 1911 or 1912..... The Model 16 (and 17) of 1909 and 1910 drive the water pump through the side of the crankcase, driven by a gear on the camshaft. WHAT? I was on the internet, you men to tell me there is Fake Internet Info? Ruined my weekend. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 I'm confused as to why these have to be so tight... are we talking about the water jacket plugs or the valve cages? For the water jackets, I'd use any hardening thread sealer. I like the red gasolia but I'm sure there are others. If we are talking about the valve cages, shouldn't they have gaskets at the base that prevent blow-by? I certainly wouldn't put any hardening thread sealer on them, even one that can be softened with heat. Can you imagine the frustration of having to dismantle the engine to heat the blocks in order to unscrew a valve cage... or , at best, destroy the paint on the engine heating the locks with a torch? I'd want to strangle the guy who did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Non hardening Teflon pipe dope if for the water jacket. https://www.zoro.com/loctite-thread-sealant-1-pt-brush-can-white-1527514/i/G6214293/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 7 hours ago, JV Puleo said: I'm confused as to why these have to be so tight... are we talking about the water jacket plugs or the valve cages? For the water jackets, I'd use any hardening thread sealer. I like the red gasolia but I'm sure there are others. If we are talking about the valve cages, shouldn't they have gaskets at the base that prevent blow-by? I certainly wouldn't put any hardening thread sealer on them, even one that can be softened with heat. Can you imagine the frustration of having to dismantle the engine to heat the blocks in order to unscrew a valve cage... or , at best, destroy the paint on the engine heating the locks with a torch? I'd want to strangle the guy who did that. These are for the water jacket, to seal the casting holes in the sides of the jugs. Thus, they have to be water tight. It's the two plugs with square drives, one top and one bottom, you see in the side of the jugs in this picture. I'm not talking about the valve cages, that's a whole 'nuther story. The valve cages are threaded too, but those are straight threads, not tapered like the casting holes and associated plugs. I'm leaning toward a thread sealant, such as the one mike6024 suggests, and I think Restorer32 may have meant this too when stating Loctite... Also, here's a Model 16/17 engine, note how the water pump comes out of the side of the crankcase. These are 35/40 HP, so a good size engine. Lots of stuff going on when the engine is running, overhead valves and associated rocker arms were not the common method of engine design during that period. thanks! dc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 What — Super Glue won’t work? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 21, 2018 Author Share Posted January 21, 2018 Well, I did get out the roll of duct tape, but didn't have much left on the roll and wanted to save it for an important repair..... Or I could be like Pierre and Boudreaux, duck hunters from Louisiana, mahn, you git dat duck tape, an' you spread it out on the groun', dem sticky side up, and when dem duck land on it dey get stuck, mahn, dey easy to shoot din I gar-on-tee....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 No, I also would not recommend using J B Weld as a sealant. I have had good results with a Loctite product PN 56931. It is specifically made for pipe threads in automotive work. There are also numerous sealants available as others have suggested. From what you describe the last thing you want to do is to have to take your motor apart because of a leak. J B Weld is not a thread sealant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Trim, I don't mean to hijack your topic, but after some suggestions to use Loctite Blue or Red Thread Locker on your pipe threads I decided to ask Locktite. I just received their communication and their technician said that Red And Blue Thread Lock should be used exclusively to anchor threads between nut and bolt, machine threads only. As advertised it is a thread locker. I pointed out that in the description it also states that it "seals" between the threads. He admitted that it might be confusing but he said that it seals between machine threads and that is to assure locking capability of the product. He said that Red and Blue Loctite was never marketed to be used on plumbing threads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 You're sealing pipe threads. It's no different than if you were putting together a furnace system. Use a pipe joint compound of your choice...............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 I'm going to try some Loctite 569 series, as suggested by Woodie....it's a hydraulic pipe joint compound, so it sounds like it should work, one gets what one pays for, and this stuff is just slightly under the price of gold per ounce, so should be great! (and I'm joking, so no need to go look up gold prices...) Thanks for all the help....dc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 What did Buick use in the pre 1910 era, how easily do the original plugs unscrew today? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 The original plugs do not unscrew, at least using a respectful force on the breaker bar. Heat might remove them, but there really wasn't a point, and figured making new ones was easier. I'm sure they used some kind of joint compound, as mentioned. Once they're in place, there's really no need to every remove them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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