New exhaust for 65

[jframe]

Has anyone had success with Waldron's Grand Sport system on a standard 65 Riv? My muffler and resonators look pretty good; they have been replaced by Midas over the years; I've got old receipts for it. The pipes look pretty crusty AND small too, though. I figure I will just replace the whole system and bring it to my exhaust man. Is there difference in sound or performance versus the standard sytem and is the fit the same? I have read some about their Imposter muffler; which one sounds better?

[telriv]

I used a stock type muffler on a car I did. I had to cut the resonator inlets by one inch as hey were too long. Then everything fit properly.

[65VerdeGS]

I bought a Waldron's system for my '65 Gran Sport about ten years ago.  This system has the correct bends of the Gran Sport exhaust system, i.e. straighter undercar pipes, not the snaky bends of the stock system.  It included the big cross-flow muffler in front of the gas tank, and two resonators just behind the tailpipes.  I had the system fitted by a local muffler shop.  The fit was pretty good, but needed a bit of tweaking to the passenger side undercar pipe to get it to fit closer to the floorpan of the car.  The system sounds "stock" to me - quiet during normal operation, but a bit "snarkey" when I stand on the gas.  

 

I think the resonators do a lot to quiet the system.  I ran a cross flow muffler without resonators for many years and it was louder.  Speedy Muffler King didn't like me after a while because I had them replace the muffler at least a dozen times under their lifetime warranty program.  After about ten replacements they started to get sticky about it.  Then, after the 12th one they refused to honor the warranty any longer saying the muffler had been discontinued, etc.  I wrote to the regional manager and complained that it wasn't my fault they made a crappy muffler that burned out every 18 months or less.  And, the muffler had a lifetime guarantee, for as long as I owned the car, right?   After some back and forth, they agreed to buy me out for $350 , money which I used to buy the Waldron's system.

[jframe]

Waldrons told me to put a small hole on the bottom.of the muffler for drainage. Im thinking of pulling the trigger on it because it seems so complete.

[RIVNIK]

Greetings Jframe     You might look at Classic Car Exhaust...... they sell a complete aluminized system on Ebay. When I bought mine several years ago it was at a considerable savings from the well known company. It was a near perfect fit.... as with the other one, it had to be tweaked on the passenger side to get it to hug the floorpan closer. Like other things they may both have the same origin, who knows.    Good Luck!      Drew

[Pat Curran]

I lost count of how many mufflers were replaced on my 64 and 65 by Midas.  They are famous for condensation and then rusting out.  They lasted 2 to 3 years and I owned my 64 for 24 years and my 65 for 8 years.  Do the math on that.  I no longer have these cars but I still have my 71 Monte Carlo that was bought new.  Midas has replaced the dual exhaust on this car numerous times in the 45+ years I have owned it.  They replaced it last year with a complete stainless steel system and didn't charge me the difference for the upgrade.  I asked them why after all these years did they install a stainless steel system and they told me they want to cut their losses and they hope to never see me again!  

[petelempert]

In my experience, the resonators are an important part of the overall sound, particularly on deceleration. Without them I heard some popping and barking that sounded more Camaro than Riviera. I'm not an exhaust expert, but I think it's small amounts of unburnt fuel igniting as it travels through the exhaust that creates the sound. Could be that I'm running a little rich too but my 63 seems to like it, but the addition of resonators smoothed out the sound. Now when I let off the gas from cruise speed and exit the highway, driving near a wall or barricade, the sound I hear is pure nailhead porn. PRL

[slosteve]

I bought a Waldons GS system for my '65 401 Riv and have been reasonably happy with it. The downsides for me were also the passenger side fit and I find it much noisier than the rusty, leaky, smaller diameter (restrictive), resonator eliminated, patched up system that it replaced. Must be the muffler plus the larger dia. pipes(?).

 

Steve

Edited December 21, 2017 by slosteve
add a word (see edit history)

[jframe]

3 minutes ago, slosteve said:

I bought a Waldons GS system for my '65 401 Riv and have been reasonably happy with it. The downsides for me were also the passenger side fit and I find it much noisier than the rusty, leaky, smaller diameter (restrictive), resonator eliminated, patched up system that it replaced. Must be the muffler plus the larger dia. pipes(?).

 

Steve

It may be. I don't mind a nice, Chris Craft rumble, but the Riv is a sporty luxiry car that shouldn't (to me, anyway) sound like the neighbor kid's Fox body Mustang. 

[slosteve]

12 minutes ago, jframe said:

 the Riv is a sporty luxiry car that shouldn't (to me, anyway) sound like the neighbor kid's Fox body Mustang. 

 

It's not THAT loud; it probably does have the "Chris Craft rumble" but on the highway especially, it is more noticeable inside the car.

 

Steve

Edited December 21, 2017 by slosteve
end a sentence (see edit history)

[jframe]

3 hours ago, slosteve said:

 

It's not THAT loud; it probably does have the "Chris Craft rumble" but on the highway especially, it is more noticeable inside the car.

 

Steve

That may not be too bad, car sounds good at idle now. I'm going to have to do something, and the only problem with a shop building one is locating a muffler and two resonators, IF I need them. The standard Riv exhaust just seems awfully tiny in diameter.

[RivNut]

23 minutes ago, jframe said:

That may not be too bad, car sounds good at idle now. I'm going to have to do something, and the only problem with a shop building one is locating a muffler and two resonators, IF I need them. The standard Riv exhaust just seems awfully tiny in diameter.

2" exhaust pipes to the muffler, 1-7/8" tail pipes is the standard Riviera pipe diameter.  The resonator will quiet it down some. 

The theory behind the rusting cross flow mufflers is that the muffler is so far from the heat source -  the exhaust valve in the cylinder head, that the gasses have cooled before reaching the muffler and are starting to condense from a vapor into a liquid.  The liquid pools in the muffler and starts the oxidation process - rust.  Drilling a small hole in the bottom of the muffler lets the condensation drip out before oxidizing.    Cars with mufflers closer to the block don't have this problem. 

 

The resonators on both my '63 and '64 were never replaced and the mufflers lasted quite a bit longer.  I just drive fast enough to leave the rumble behind me.  Stainless is noisier than OE ty;e steel pipe as well.  Doesn't rust but you have the noise to contend with.  Time to take out the interior and put in some sound deadener.

 

 

 

Ed

[Turbinator]

JFrame, I put on a replacement exhaust and mufflers. 

0F47D2F2-2F54-46EC-B76D-AF518FC0FAD7.MOV

[jframe]

Thanks for all the replies. I went with an aluminized Gran Sport system from Classic Exhaust, complete with resonators and mufflers. Just waiting for it to arrive.

[60FlatTop]

 

To the left you can see one of my 2" Hushpower mufflers, one behind each wheel. The original muffler has been replaced with an equalizer pipe. I like the sound.

 

I took the car to the muffler shop with the Hushpowers and a complete stock system. I gave him and outline of what the modified one would be and said "Look things orver and if it doesn't look too hard, I would like the modified one.

 

The new stock muffler and pipes are ready to put on if I get bored with the sound. Maybe that was 4 years ago.

64riviera.mp3

The original parts are all NOS manufactured parts, including a couple pieces from Jolly John. It is is stock I really try to avoid mandrel bent pipes, especially mail order ones.

 

Bernie

[DShoes]

On 12/31/2017 at 12:23 AM, Turbinator said:

JFrame, I put on a replacement exhaust and mufflers. 

0F47D2F2-2F54-46EC-B76D-AF518FC0FAD7.MOV

Turbinator,

 

I just came across your video. What a beautiful Riv...and what a beautiful sound! What's your set up? I need to replace the R and L stock resonators on my '65 (rusted out). Already replaced the large back muffler with something from Magnaflow a couple years back. Sounds nice but almost too quiet. I'm looking for that nice Chris Craft boat rumble that you've got.

[Turbinator]

DShoes, you’ll laugh. I go by referral almost all the time except my Dentist.

I asked a automotive shop owner in turn asked the NAPA dealer here, in Maryland “ Who is the best muffler man in central Maryland.”? The response was Marty Arroyo at MIDAS on MD 26 outside of Baltimore. I thought it was joke. I talked to Marty and he owned first generation Rivs awhile back. Marty said, “ What kind of sound you want.?” … he interrupted with” How about some reverb in the cabin with just enough crackle.” I said done. I asked how much and he put me in for $1100. About 4 years ago.

I tell you he used 2 1/2” pipe and placed a short magnaflow type muffler about under the back seat floor pan.

He got the pipe up real close tight and neat. He welded the hangers on the car and pipe. No rattles, yet…

I’ll take some pics and pm them to you this AM. Thank you for your compliment.

Turbinator

Edited December 9, 2021 by Turbinator (see edit history)

[DShoes]

So if I'm understanding you right, you just have the single muffler with 2 1/2" pipe and no resonators? Would love to see more of those pics when you have a chance. Thanks.

 

You've got me thinking that maybe I should ditch the resonators, step up my pipe diameter from 2" to 2 1/2" and go straight into the back muffler...

[RivNut]

If you know of a good muffler shop, you might consider going from you resonator replacement pie and go over the axle and stick a turbo muffler up in the void between the inner fender and the trunk.

[Turbinator]

On 12/9/2021 at 2:25 PM, DShoes said:

So if I'm understanding you right, you just have the single muffler with 2 1/2" pipe and no resonators? Would love to see more of those pics when you have a chance. Thanks.

 

You've got me thinking that maybe I should ditch the resonators, step up my pipe diameter from 2" to 2 1/2" and go straight into the back muffler...

 

On 12/9/2021 at 2:25 PM, DShoes said:

So if I'm understanding you right, you just have the single muffler with 2 1/2" pipe and no resonators? Would love to see more of those pics when you have a chance. Thanks.

 

You've got me thinking that maybe I should ditch the resonators, step up my pipe diameter from 2" to 2 1/2" and go straight into the back muffler...

I’ve had a hell of a time answering with my phone. I have a flow master type muffler under each front floor pan. Straight pipes all the way back no reasonator.

 

[Turbinator]

Here is another pic 

each pic from end of the exhaust looking toward the front of the car.

[Turbinator]

On 12/9/2021 at 2:25 PM, DShoes said:

So if I'm understanding you right, you just have the single muffler with 2 1/2" pipe and no resonators? Would love to see more of those pics when you have a chance. Thanks.

 

You've got me thinking that maybe I should ditch the resonators, step up my pipe diameter from 2" to 2 1/2" and go straight into the back muffler...

Sorry, I didn’t get more pictures, but I will.

I have two mufflers one for each manifold- driver and passenger.

No resonator. The resonator is not on my car. When I put the system in zi was not interested in the stock set up and not remembering the stock sound.

I knew what I wanted and end up with a magnaflow type muffler under the front bucket seat , I’m the front, not the back floor pan. Then straight pipe to the end. 
Driving up 60 miles an hour I find the sound enjoyable. Once you get in 70 mph plus it gets loud. I have not measured decibel levels at the 70 plus mph. The sound is not painful full but loud. I was thinking about putting some sound proofing in the car. But then again I do not go over 70 that much.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Turbinator
Addition (see edit history)

[RIVNIK]

I installed Classic exhaust back around 2008, went through a couple of mufflers over the next decade, thought the mufflers must be poor quality so I switched to Waldrons back in March. When I realized that condensation was probably the culprit( DUH! the car was spitting sooty water& copious amounts of steam every time you start it) I finally got the nerve to drill the hole & about half a cup of water came out. That muffler was not long for this world. After that no more problems (except for the constant wet spot under the hole). BTW I had the same problem as everyone else w Waldrons passenger side pipes not fitting correctly. After sending them a detailed video of the problem, they said they had not had any complaints about the pipe, but were kind enough to make me a new one, which they sent right out. It was the exact same pipe! (Another DUH! moment for both me & Waldrons) The rest of the system was top quality, & the folks at Waldrons are very nice, but for that reason I would hesitate to recommend them unless you have some pipe tweaking expertise.

Q: should there also be holes in the resonators?

& BTW, IMO(especially for those concerned about originality) the Riv is a high performance luxury car but was not meant to sound like a hot rod. I found both Classic & Waldrons stock mufflers to be too loud. 

[Riviera63]

When I purchased my 1963 in 2014 it needed an exhaust system. We have an excellent muffler shop where I live and they were able to bend me the exhaust system I needed. This system is still solid and going strong. Any competent muffler shop should be able to do this for you. Here are some things I learned along the way.

 

1.) Upon the advice of fellow forum member Tom Mooney I had the shop use the pattern for the 1965 GS exhaust system. Tom had pointed out to me that the GS system had fewer bends. This saved time and money.

 

2.) As Rivnik said, the Riviera exhaust system was designed to be quiet. If you want quiet go with the resonators and the rear transverse muffler. If you want a little more rumble leave out the resonators. I opted to go without the resonators and an original Riviera transverse muffler. It gives a nice rumble without being obnoxious.

 

3.) As was pointed out in the forum in the past and here by Rivnik, drill a 1/8" hole at either end of the transverse muffler to allow water to escape. Since the muffler is so far away from the engine the exhaust cools, condenses and sits in the bottom of the muffler. This will rot the muffler and decrease its life. Had I found this out sooner I am sure my first muffler would still be in service. 

 

4.) This is just my opinion and I know that things can be done in different ways but, trust the Buick engineers. They designed that transverse muffler for a reason. I know they can be pricey, but if you can source an original transverse muffler, do it. As has been pointed out many times on this forum on a variety of topics, doing things in the way God/Buick intended can save trouble and heartache down the road. 

 

Bill 

[telriv]

You don't need to drill the resonators as they are closer to the engine & heat up & dissipate/boil out moisture. Would it hurt to drill them NO & could be added insurance.

 

Tom T.

[1965rivgs]

5 hours ago, Riviera63 said:

3.) As was pointed out in the forum in the past and here by Rivnik, drill a 1/8" hole at either end of the transverse muffler to allow water to escape. Since the muffler is so far away from the engine the exhaust cools, condenses and sits in the bottom of the muffler. This will rot the muffler and decrease its life. Had I found this out sooner I am sure my first muffler would still be in service. 

 

4.) This is just my opinion and I know that things can be done in different ways but, trust the Buick engineers. They designed that transverse muffler for a reason. I know they can be pricey, but if you can source an original transverse muffler, do it. As has been pointed out many times on this forum on a variety of topics, doing things in the way God/Buick intended can save trouble and heartache down the road. 

 

Bill 

Hi Bill,

  Back in the day, it was typical that mufflers came with a drain hole already drilled in the muffler. Dont know if that still is the case? The drain holes do plug up with debris so it is a good standard maintenance practice to keep the drain holes cleared.

  There was wisdom...and some lack there of, in the use of the transverse muffler. On one hand, the transverse muffler also acts as a cross over pipe to cancel impulses from one bank to the other. That`s why a system like Bob`s above, with no connection from one bank to the other, has that "Chris Craft rumble". But on the other hand, locating a muffler so far rearward in the system, which is really the only possible place to locate a transverse muffler between the two cylinder banks, enables the cooling of the exhaust gases and hence the accumulation of the H2O that is a byproduct of the combustion equation. End result, "water heater" muffler!

Tom

Edited December 12, 2021 by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

My wife will tell you that I treat my cars like the famous Kill Bill Hattoru Hanzo sword. I won't start it unless I am going to use it. For years I have not started any of my cars without a 6 to 10 mile drive. This means everything comes up to operating temperature and all condensation and exhaust water vapor is purged from the systems. Even if the car has to be moved one parking spot over on the driveway it gets the long trip around the block.  There are a lot more places a good drive will clear out moisture besides just the muffler. I adhere to the policy.

 

About 15 years ago I decided one of my cars should have a rumbly exhaust. Since my '64 Riviera was the V8 two door it got the system. I put an equalizer pipe in place of the transverse muffler and two stainless Hushpower I laminar baffle 12 inchers parallel to the rear frame rails. It sounds great, kink of a Chris Craft sound. For lack of a better term I guess I have outgrown the rumbly stuff. I have a full set of NOS pipes (part from Jolly John) and an NOS muffler that will go on it next year. At this point in my life I think the personal luxury image is silent, as is my '60 Electra.

 

I have dealt with Kepich (Classic) in the 1980's. The last dealing with then was hearing his footsteps walk to the phone after an assistant answered and hear him hang up.

Waldron's, bless their little hearts, I think tries, but they severely missed their career calling. Maybe a florist shop or a bakery. Certainly not building exhaust systems to hang in my garage rafters. Whatever they pay that nice lady on the phone is not enough.

 

My other cars all have NOS or NORS systems and are quite now. I plan to repair and maintain them with the existing components. I will open and restuff sound deadener in the mufflers and weld patches as needed. Better than starting over. Even so, I will watch for the suitable NOS oe NORS stuff on Ebay and Craigslist if available to have on hand. I trust the manufactured pipes must more than any of the guys with a tubing bender.

 

If I buy future cars I would refurbish existing well fitting components before buying new, questionable fit items. A few weeks ago I had to rerubber the exhaust hanger on my '60 Electra. It is not hard.

 

On pipe diameters, I have recognized that I rarely exceed 3,500 RPM now that tachs are common on all cars. I don't think I really need to worry about a restrictive exhaust system hampering my 0-40 stoplight times. 😉

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, 60FlatTop said:

My wife will tell you that I treat my cars like the famous Kill Bill Hattoru Hanzo sword. I won't start it unless I am going to use it. For years I have not started any of my cars without a 6 to 10 mile drive. This means everything comes up to operating temperature and all condensation and exhaust water vapor is purged from the systems. Even if the car has to be moved one parking spot over on the driveway it gets the long trip around the block.  There are a lot more places a good drive will clear out moisture besides just the muffler. I adhere to the policy.

 

About 15 years ago I decided one of my cars should have a rumbly exhaust. Since my '84 Riviera was the V8 two door it got the system. I put an equalizer pipe in place of the transverse muffler and two stainless Hushpower I laminar baffle 12 inchers parallel to the rear frame rails. It sounds great, kink of a Chris Craft sound. For lack of a better term I guess I have outgrown the rumbly stuff. I have a full set of NOS pipes (part from Jolly John) and an NOS muffler that will go on it next year. At this point in my life I think the personal luxury image is silent, as is my '60 Electra.

 

I have dealt with Kepich (Classic) in the 1980's. The last dealing with then was hearing his footsteps walk to the phone after an assistant answered and hear him hang up.

Waldron's, bless their little hearts, I think tries, but they severely missed their career calling. Maybe a florist shop or a bakery. Certainly not building exhaust systems to hang in my garage rafters. Whatever they pay that nice lady on the phone is not enough.

 

My other cars all have NOS or NORS systems and are quite now. I plan to repair and maintain them with the existing components. I will open and restuff sound deadener in the mufflers and weld patches as needed. Better than starting over. Even so, I will watch for the suitable NOS oe NORS stuff on Ebay and Craigslist if available to have on hand. I trust the manufactured pipes must more than any of the guys with a tubing bender.

 

If I buy future cars I would refurbish existing well fitting components before buying new, questionable fit items. A few weeks ago I had to rerubber the exhaust hanger on my '60 Electra. It is not hard.

 

On pipe diameters, I have recognized that I rarely exceed 3,500 RPM now that tachs are common on all cars. I don't think I really need to worry about a restrictive exhaust system hampering my 0-40 stoplight times. 😉

 

 

‘84 Riviera with dual exhaust and a crossover muffler?  

[60FlatTop]

I corrected the typo.

[Pat Curran]

Most of the the transverse mufflers that I have had over the years  had a small hole drilled in the sides.  The problem was that the hole sat about an eighth of an inch above the bottom of the muffler.  As a result, water from condensation would still accumulate in the bottom of the muffler.  You know what happens next.

[Turbinator]

Many knowledgeable gents with plenty experience offered information regarding exhaust systems on first gen Riv’s. DShoes asked me about my set up and sound. I gave DShoes what I had. I did fail to mention 58 years or so Buick gave us a great car the Riviera. Since then technology has gone forward with better spark plugs, better spark plug wires, electronic ignition, and upgraded shocks, coil springs, and sway bars. I’m interested in keeping the appearance of the car stock while improving performance.

So, a rebuilt 808 that helps me keep the car on my side of the road is an improvement. A dual master brake cylinder I thought was a good idea. Changing out the STV and AC MUffler helped me get cold air. My changes were not stock parts swap. The guys that designed the cars 58 years ago are probably retired by now and just didn’t put in any Service Bulletins.

The muffler system can be as quiet as you like or as loud as a motor boat. Those of you that have a first gen car that runs is invited to

chime in with a 30 second recording of their exhaust system. Those of you that don’t have a Riv that runs can record a vocalization of what the muffler sounds like. ( glug glug glug)😎

Turbinator

[DShoes]

Quick update to this thread. A few weeks back, I ended up removing the rusted out resonators all together and piping things straight back to a transverse Flowmaster (I think I mistakenly stated Magnaflow previously). My wife can't tell the difference but I can tell things are just a bit louder. No real gain or loss in the low grumble. I had been warned about possible drone with the Flowmaster at highway speed, but fortunately I'm not experiencing it. As always, thanks for all the suggestions / opinions. 

 

David

[RIVNIK]

mine's more of a blub blub blub than a glug glug glug. better look into that.  sounds like you're using too much gas.                                                                                                                                                   BTW: if you've previously replaced your exhaust w an aftermarket "stock"system, an NOS muffler may not fit. Measure before buying

[rivyboy]

On one of my old Rivs I had a muffler shop custom bend an exhaust system using 4 aluminized glass packs. 2 before the rear wheels and 2 behind them. It sounded great! I've used Waldron in the past and have had good service. The Gran Sport 21/4" are time consuming to get all the necessary clearances, but sound better than the 2" stock