Guest Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 Anybody here familiar with these? I posted down in the Knight Engine section. Recommended I go to W.O.K.R. site, which I did but still waiting for registration approval. I have an opportunity to buy a 1921 Willys Knight sedan with some interesting history. And, while I'm pretty familiar with vintage cars, I have zero experience with sleeve valve engines. The amount of info out there seems to be directly proportionate to the amount of sleeve valve engines still around. Not too much. I'm going to see my machine shop Monday to ask if they have any experience with them but I think I already know the answer. Anybody here experienced with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 well, I have no experience with them, but this I will tell you............ 30 years ago it was a feather in your cap to own one of these cars! They went for good money and everyone knew the engineering was terrific. Today, it seems they are lost in history and few people have heard of them. They bring low end prices, if they sell. Memory seems to tell me it was common for them to let out a little blue smoke............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted June 24, 2017 Share Posted June 24, 2017 What little I know about their sleeve valve engines is they are the smoothest and quietest running engines ever. Overhauling one would be a night mare however. The carburetors are of white metal and have a tendency to disintegrate though finding a suitable replacement shouldn't be too difficult. Oil consumption doesn't seem to be a problem, even when excessive, though they do take oil as there are a lot of moving parts inside. Over and out....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 They were designed and built to get around the valve troubles that were so common on early cars. All the Knight engines I know of were extremely reliable and long lived. In trucks and buses they frequently ran 100,000 miles when ordinary engines went 20000 or 30000 between overhauls. The down side is they are very difficult to repair and there are very few specialists who understand them. Another drawback is the oil burning. They were all oil burners from new and there is nothing you can do about it. If you look at old movies of the 30s showing English royalty in their limousine there is always a small plume of oil smoke out the tail pipe. Daimler was the official royal car and they featured Knight sleeve valve engines. I knew an old time collector who used a 1924 Willys Knight 4 cylinder as a tour car in the sixties and seventies. He told me when he started off in the morning it would burn 1 quart of oil in the first sixty miles. After that, nothing. Even if he drove another 200 miles it burned no more oil that day. Next day, a quart in 60 miles, after that nothing. It seems to take them a long time to warm up. If the engine is in good shape and you maintain it by the book you could have a real nice, unusual car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hchris Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 As others have said very smooth and silent running, complicated mechanically if you want to rebuild; but as Rusty says - big time smokers. The #1 draw back with this beautiful piece of machinery is keeping the oil inside; with conventional push rod / valved engines, when they smoke you can often get away with a quick repair to valve guides or seals, not so with sleeve valve engines, a complete strip down is required and I doubt now that there would be many machine shops left with the knowledge on how to go about repairing them. And going slightly off topic, the Brits used this technology in a lot of their radial engine aircraft; many of these aircraft had endurance ranges limited not by their fuel carrying capacity but instead by their oil carrying capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 If you Google, "sleeve valve engines" there's quite a bit of info on them. One good example of how they work is this link to a You Tube video of a cut-away showing how the sleeves work in relation to piston position. And why there is no simple fix for wear, such as just putting in new valve guides and rings to stop oil burning with a valve-in-head type engine design. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Wurke Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 I consider myself as experienced. I have a 1929 Minerva with a 6 cylinder, 6 liter sleeve valve engine. I have been thru it. Quite a piece of engineering! 2 crankshafts, 18 connecting rods, 7 oil pumps, 6 cylinder heads. It has hemi heads and hemi pistons. It should be called a "Fireball Six" The more they run the better they get, as the horsepower increases with the formation of carbon in the cylinders ! What questions do you have? I'll try to help. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Magnificent car, magnificent restoration! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john2dameron Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 I have always been told that if carbon was allowed to build up in a sleeve valve engine they would not burn oil but if you kept the carbon cleaned out they kept burning oil. October 28, 2003 I was at a car show at Broadway Virginia and a restoration shop (that I don't remember the name of) was just putting the finishing touches on a 1928 Willys-Knight roadster they were restoring. I am sure they had also rebuilt it mechanically. Perhaps a Google Search would reveal the name of the restoration shop. I think it is still in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 The video tidbit clearly shows the nightmare of rebuilding a sleeve valve engine........ And with 3 close fitting, reciprocating, components knowing the clearances between them is critical or you'd wind up with a really expensive paper weight....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) .We own a model 87 great car,fast for its age. If a sleeve valve does not smoke some, it is out of oil .Make sure it is not stuck..Looks like a great car Edited June 26, 2017 by old car fan (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Wiegand Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 Mr. Wurke, your saying the engine has TWO crankshafts is not quite accurate. There is the crankshaft that runs the rods and pistons. Then there is an eccentric shaft that runs the double sleeves for the intake and exhaust functions. I owned a 1928 Willys-Knight Model 56 Two-Door Coach for 32 years. It was sold new here in my hometown of Hutchinson, Kansas and the drive line had never had a wrench put on it. The car was completely original inside and out and as far as the engine smoking a lot, it didn't. The oil rectifier worked as it should and if I were to unhook the fan belt from the water pump, close the hood, and turn my back to the car, one could not hear the engine running at idle speed. My wife and I left the church after our wedding in the car. We brought the first daughter home from the hospital when she was born in that car. The car was extremely smooth and quiet all through the gears. It was the shortest wheelbased, smallest cubic inch displacement 6-cylinder engine that Willys-Overland produced, but the proportions and styling was second only to the Great Six PlaidSide Roadster. Most folks do not understand the sleeve valve engine and are scared of them. The engineering in that engine has things turning in rotation or sliding back and forth. No hammering of parts against each other as in the poppet valve engine. I am a huge fan of the Knight double sleeve valve engine. And then I discovered early Buick Six-Cylinder cars. And the time just flies when you're having fun! Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 The Willys company ran tests of their sleeve valve vs comparable engines of the time, like Cadillac V8. They found that while the conventional engine slowly wore out, lost power and burned more oil the sleeve valve ran smoother, developed more power and burned less oil the more they ran it. At the end of their dyno tests the conventional engine was a clattering smoking wreck while the sleeve valve produced more power than when it began. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 I knew an old mechanic who began working on cars and motorcycles before 1920. He told me about a customer who was in the market for a used car. He knew about a Willys Knight sedan he could get at a good price and recommended he buy it, which he did. The mechanic then told him the reason for the low price was that the car was down on power, but all that was wrong was the exhaust was choked off by burnt oil in the muffler. He recommended replacing the muffler. The customer picked up a crowbar and rammed it up the tail pipe a few times then drove off with black carbon and bits of muffler blowing out. No more problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 The car I'm looking at is a '21 model 20 sedan. Seller says it hasn't run "for a couple of years". Poppet valve engine, I wouldn't hesitate, bit since I'm so unfamiliar with the sleeve valve I don't want to buy a two thousand pound boat anchor. Car is in decent but tired condition. Asking price is 10 K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Hud Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 That's a nice looking sedan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 If the engine isn't frozen chances are it will run. But I don't blame you for not wanting to take a chance at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 The car has some interesting history. It was owned by Paramount Studios here in SoCal and used in the '59-'63 TV series The Untouchables as Robert Stack's car. Comes with paper trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdarrunt Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 I had a night club on Dyer Street in Dallas that was just two doors down from Bill Stokes Studio which did the actual filming of "Bonnie and Clyde". There was a vacant lot across the street from the club with a watchman to guard the old cars used in the movie while they were not on set. Naturally I was frequently over looking at the cars and one day the owner of a sleeve valve car was doing something with it running. You had to watch the fan blade to tell it was running---completely silent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 There was a Falcon Knight sedan many years ago that ended up being owned at various times by a few friends of mine. I have long since lost track of it. I rode in it several times, and followed it on tours often. I never thought it smoked much. I never heard the reason why (not to scare you away!), but something inside the motor broke. The friend that owned it at that time tore it apart, found a donor engine for the parts he had to replace, and did the overhaul himself, being careful to not overly clean many pieces. He drove the car a lot for a few years after. He also said, that although different than what he was used to, it wasn't that difficult to work on. A few years later, he wound up helping another friend (who's father had previously owned the Falcon Knight) rebuild a Stearns Knight engine. The Stearns Knight had a very nice looking cosmetic restoration and was beautifully detailed, but turned out to have serious engine problems, burned out a couple connecting rods. Again, not wanting to scare anybody away from these cars! The engine had not been properly maintained, and gunk in the motor plugged the oil passageways, requiring .a major tear-down. The two of them got in, and cleaned and overhauled that Stearns motor. It ran great as long as I know thereafter. My main point of all this, is that the Knight engines CAN be rebuilt by a good mechanic familiar with antique engines. They do have some peculiarities. But once aware of them, not so bad. One other thing about SOME Knight cars. Some Stearns, and a few other marque models, catered to an elite clientele. They wanted elegance (hence quiet), mostly used in town, and did not care much about speed. That Stearns was one of the most beautiful and elegant antique automobile sedans I have ever seen. However, it was slow. The rear end gearing was so low, that the fastest that car could go was about 35 mph. The owner decided to not try to modify the car for higher gearing, sold the Stearns and bought a P1 Rolls Royce soon thereafter. If you want to tour the car extensively? You may want to see if you can easily count the gear ratio. 5 1/2 to 1 isn't very fast. While the engines are strong and fairly reliable, they are not high rpm capable. Better gear ratios seem to make good tour cars. I have followed several on tours at various times. A little smoke? Yeah. But most were not bad to follow, even when driving an open car. I would love to have a Knight engine car. But that is another of my many wants I will probably never achieve. Good luck! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 It is true, the Knight design does not lend itself to high speeds. The weight and friction of the sleeves sees to that. So they tuned them accordingly. The Voisin was an exception. They developed very thin, light sleeves and altered the porting. The result was an engine that would rev like a poppet valve engine but had very little low speed torque. The Voisin cultivated a performance reputation so perhaps that did not matter to their clientele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Greg, that car is worth 1/2 of what they are asking at best........................ Willie, Im biting my knuckles, looking at your car. MAGNIFICENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imnuts4fords@comcast.net Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 My father had a 1925 WK in 1937. He and his brother rebuilt the engine. Water got into a cylinder and the lug broke off the bottom of one of the sleeves. Broken lugs are a common problem. Also, their model had an aluminum water manifold on the top of the engine that was always leaking. Otherwise, he loved that car. They all smoke as the sleeves must be lubricated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Aluminum water manifolds and gaskets are reproduced. No longer a problem. Broken sleeve lugs are why everyone says not to force a Knight engine to turn when stuck. Recent article in WOKR publication shows a WK owner reproduced sleeves for the 6 cylinder engine. That was quite an undertaking! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Our 87,i would not be worried to drive it anywhere.Great car Sorry guys,i love the car,If the car is not froze it will run .Without more info, pics ect,cant put a value on it.I like it Edited June 29, 2017 by old car fan (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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