JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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Hello Joe,

 

Anyway you could drill and tap for a grease cup or Alemite fitting?

The Wisconsin water pump has grease cups and the bronze bearings

have simple broached slots for grease grooves.

 

T.

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The problem is that the front bearing is inside the bracket that holds the pump - that one might be possible but the hole would have to go through both pieces. The rear bearing is much more complicated because it is surrounded by the inlet water passage. I did think of a way to do it but it rapidly gets complicated and creates the risk of a water leak. Since the original pump didn't have either I thought it would be safe to rely on soluble oil in the coolant, the oilite bearings and the fact that I can replace them easily.

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The modern seal will burn from lack of lubricant............oilite will be a problem. You need to figure out a few things......cutting oil will protect the oilite, but the seal will fail, rather quickly. The seal needs to have a pocket of grease behind it , I usually run two seals, back to back with a pocket of water pump grease in between. Then twice a year I give the cup half to 3/4 of a turn.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Joe, can you bore the pump to take two seals, and make a grease passage and a grease cup to lubricate it? Looks like it’s a possibility. Your going to have to run a fair amount of cutting oil to keep the pump from tearing itself apart. It’s not a problem if you run water and oil in the summers and antifreeze in the winter. The seal will be a bigger problem than the oilite. Been there, done that. 
 

On my cars now I run a ceramic seal......pain in the ass to engineer.....but I have 25k on my pump, and have never had to grease or service it. The bearings are modern with modern seals........also “sealed” and non serviceable.  Works great, but not easy.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I can revisit the problem in the future if it does prove to be a problem. Adding grease cups would be a challenge, mostly because it would require a tube passing through the inlet water passage to the bearing in the back and passing through the bracket that holds the pump in place in front. I could shorten the bearings and put seals on both sides...that would make it easier to lubricate but would decrease the bearing surface by 1/2". That may not be an issue - the total surface is slightly less than 3" now which is a lot for a 3/4" shaft. If I did that, I'd be inclined to put a seal on each end of the bushing and a small "button" type oil fitting in the middle. I actually those since they were incorporated in my original design. I bought a pair of ceramic seals but there simply isn't room for them. The width of the pump is limited by the bracket and the magneto and I've got it as tight as I dare go now.

 

I wonder what the original thinking was since they didn't have water-soluble oil. The original pump shaft was badly corroded from electrolysis but the bushings  didn't show much wear at all. They may have picked up some lubrication from the packing material.

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Joe,

I am sure you will figure it out! I am using a water soluable cutting fluid at school and it

doesn't seem to stink after sitting all summer.  Durakut I believe is the brand.

 

T.

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That's a good sign. I'll make a note of the name.

This discussion has given me some ideas that may work. I'll have to make a small part and adapt a tiny grease cup but the good part is that I can make the part first and then, if it looks as if it will work, add it to the pump.

 

Thinking a bit further on this... maybe I'll put a seal on each end of the bushing and lubricate it by connecting a small Gits "twist" oiler using way oil. I like way oil because it much stickier than motor oil (which isn't all that great a lubricant for anything other than motors).

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Joe,

Durakut is available as a synthetic and semi-synthetic. You probably want the synthetic.

1:20 is the mix they recommend.

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Does anyone here know when "flush" grease fittings were invented? This is the type that used a pointed attachment or a needle on the end of the grease gun. I know the fittings with a little ball check valve were in use because there are several on the car in places where they must be original. I'd prefer to keep everything that shows on the car in my 1910-1915 time frame.

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3 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

Joe,

Durakut is available as a synthetic and semi-synthetic. You probably want the synthetic.

1:20 is the mix they recommend.

 

That sounds good and the synthetic is advertised as having no odor. At $50 a gallon it isn't cheap but with a 20:1 ratio and a water system that doesn't leak (I hope) 20 gallons of water should last a long time.

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I will. I'm probably years from needing it. Heck, I don't even have a radiator yet.

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Today I made these two little tools to trim the gaskets I need perfectly round.

 

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I also have been doing some experiments to see how I can add grease cups. It isn't as easy as it looks because where the bushing inside the pump is located. The grease fitting will have to be very close to the end plate. That said, I made this piece... 5/8 rod turned down to 3/8 and threaded. It will have to screw into the inlet side of the pump quite close to the end plate and that creates a problem with the width of the cap. I don't want to use Zerk or Alemite fittings because they are, as far as I know, too new. The threaded portion will have to go through the water passage so I'm thinking of using a 3/8 x 5/8 fiber washer on the outside as a gasket and threading the end to accept a grease cup that, when fully screwed down, will almost touch the outer rim of the pump. It will have to go in at an angle in order to avoid the nuts I made to hold the pump together.

 

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I have two of these brass grease cups which I think came off this car but they are a bit big so I'm looking for some with a smaller cap diameter.

 

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I also don't want to drill a hole in the piece that holds the pump in place but I think that can be solved by using a flush fitting. You will have to take the cap off to reach it but that should not be a problem and nothing will show.

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Hello Joe,

 

These types of problems are fun and actually enjoyable. My grease cups are 3/4" dia. across the caps.

One is on an angle as well to clear the casting. If you really wanted to be devious you could make a custom

grease-cup body hiding a zerk fitting inside.

 

On our steam Lombard had a bazillion old fashioned grease plugs that when screwed in forced hard grease into

the journals. For the most part we have converted all these to zerk fitting but they are hidden by threaded caps

that look exactly like the old grease plugs.

DSC_3581.thumb.JPG.5715ed3898f2968cad3c2ecb68dfdd69.JPG

 

 

 

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You got me thinking...so I did an internet search and found a pdf of the 1895 Lukenheimer catalog. It has very nice drawings of all their products, including the grease cups. With that, I may try and make one - not a regular grease cup but one with a central threaded plunger. I may have what it takes sitting around the shop.

 

Another thought was to make hard felt seals. That's what would have been done at the time and if they worked would be a lot more resistant to abrasion from the pump shaft than the modern rubber seals.

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Joe, my neighbor is a polisher and had some old hard felt polishing wheels so he gave me one. I cut some slices on the band saw then using a sharpened hard brass thin wall tubing, cut washers for all my spring shackles on my Olds as I found nothing available to duplicate what was originally used. I still have some of that felt wheel if you need some. That wheel was two inches wide but could also be sliced the other way if you need a bigger diameter.

Edited by chistech (see edit history)
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I decided I wasn't happy with any of the adaptations I came up with to use a regularly available grease cup because the area I have to work with is very tight. So, I decided to make one to fit the available space. The first thing I made was this nut... 5/8 across the flats. The rebate at the bottom will center on a fiber washer.

 

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The nut screws on to the long 3/8-24 threaded section. The big end, where the cap screws on, was threaded 7/8-18 which is an old SAE spark plug size. I thought I'd have to make a threading gauge but I remembered that I bought the tap to thread the caps that go over the intake valves. The Mitchell originally used pipe thread plugs but, because they fit Model T's, NOS plugs are really expensive so I made my caps to take the other size. I still have the original caps so I can use either type of plug. According to the late Harold Sharon, no modern plug is hot enough for a brass car regardless of the thread so I was able to buy a set of 6, nearly new, for something like $30.

 

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Most of the big threaded end will be cut off to make the top of the cap. and the long 3/8 section will be inside the pump. I have to cut it off and drill a hole through the entire piece, then make the cap.

 

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I would have liked to use brass for the nut but didn't have an 5/8 hex bar and didn't want to wait for it to come in. I doubt it will be noticeable, especially as, if this comes out right, it will look as if it was originally designed that way.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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This morning I cut the threaded end off the grease fitting...

 

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And drilled it. The tiny drill wasn't quite long enough so I drilled it from both ends.

 

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Grease cups have a funnel at the bottom but I don't have enough depth to do that. To get some "funnel" shape I used this HSS router bit, which really worked a charm. I put a little further taper in with a center drill also.

 

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With that done, I made the cap...

 

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Here it is screwed onto the fitting.

 

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I also put a knurl on the end. It is quite possible the OD will be a tiny bit too large. If so, I'll have to make a holding fixture and turn it down a small amount.

 

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The rest of the afternoon was spent dismantling the pump again and setting it up to mill a relief in the plate for the grease fitting. I have to do this in order to make the grease come out in the middle of the bearing. Strangely enough, the measurements worked out perfectly - as if I'd thought of this in advance. This was a tension wracked operation and when I finished, about 4:30, I decided to let the rest wait for tomorrow.

 

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On 1/28/2020 at 12:18 AM, chistech said:

Joe, my neighbor is a polisher and had some old hard felt polishing wheels so he gave me one. I cut some slices on the band saw then using a sharpened hard brass thin wall tubing, cut washers for all my spring shackles on my Olds as I found nothing available to duplicate what was originally used. I still have some of that felt wheel if you need some. That wheel was two inches wide but could also be sliced the other way if you need a bigger diameter.

 

Thanks Ted. I have some 1/4" hard felt coming and I'll experiment with that first. I know it works with oil but I wonder if it will work in this case. It's worth finding out in any case.

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Yes, #1 felt works for grease seals, too.  The #2 felt also works but is gray, not white.  I've cut sheets using bits of steel or copper pipe sharpened to an edge in my HF 12-ton hydraulic press.  The hole for the shaft wants to be just a little smaller than the shaft o.d. so as not to compress the felt too much and get excessive wear on the seal.

 

felt_seals_press.jpg

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The felt came in so perhaps, if I have the time tomorrow, I'll make a couple of seals for test purposes.

Having milled the half-round relief for the grease cup (the really tense part), today I drilled a center hole...

 

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Then drilled through both walls of the inlet plate...

 

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I also used a counterbore to make a perfectly flat surface for the fiber washer.

 

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And then tapped the hole, all without moving the piece as it is critical that all these operations be in perfect alignment.

 

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I then assembled everything and discovered that the nut I'd made was much too short . something like .200.

 

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So, I made a new nut. I had an idea of how to use some 3/4 brass hex stock I have so, in the end, it's better for the problem.

 

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You can see the threaded piece passing through the water passage. I had intended to put sealing varnish on the threads but it all fits so perfectly that I may test it just as it is.

 

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I now have to make a holding fixture for the cap which is about .010-.015 to large in diameter. I thought that might be a problem because it's made of 1" bar and the milling cutter was 1" in diameter. That is cutting it too close and the milled relief was the really critical part. If I have to make another cap, so be it.

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To finish the grease cup I had to make another holding fixture.

 

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Another example of 2 hours to make the tool and 20 minutes to do the job. I think I'm my most severe critic but in this case I can't see how the job could have come out any better.

 

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In order for the greast to get to the shaft I put a groove in the bushing...

 

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and drilled 4 holes at 90 degrees.

 

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Then pressed the bushing back in. One little additional piece was the rear cover plate. I think it was rubbing a little and, since I reused this from the previous pump  (and all the holes weren't drilled at the same time) I'm not surprised. In any case, it's just a cover for the seal so I drilled it out to 13/16 using a piece of the previous pump to hold it.

 

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Are you going to run a single seal, or install two and keep the water out of the bushing entirely? Or you could cut a groove for a o ring and not have to modify anything else.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I like the O-ring idea. I'm afraid that removing enough bushing to add another seal would take to much away from the bearing surface though I've no data to tell me one way or the other. As it is, it's 1-1/2" on one side and 1-1/4" on the other side. The seals take up 1/4" so I'd loose that much on either side. Does that sound reasonable to you?

 

On second thought...total length of bearing with 2 seals is still 2-1/4" which ought to be plenty given the relatively low stress on it, especially if no water can get to the shaft.

 

Ed, you got me thinking so I did a quick search on bearing loads. In as much as my limited math skills allow it appears that the maximum recommended bearing surface is 4:1 (bearing length:shaft diameter). With a 3/4" shaft the length ratio is 3:1 WITH the two seals.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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You have plenty of bushing, on my pumps I try and run ceramic seals if possible......we won’t go there. I also have run sealed bearings with seals on both sides.......overkill. You want to be able to lubricate the seals and bushing without pushing the seal lip out of position when greasing it. Use only real water pump grease.......not the modern synthetic stuff that says it’s ok but will plug the radiator. Cutting oil in the coolant and your current set up with water pump grease should be fine for a few hundred years of operation..........

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