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My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project


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Does the flat side of the impeller face this surface or the one with the tapered bushing? I don't see where the water comes in but, of course it has to enter at the center of the impeller. You're right, everything about this car is odd. In any case, it does not look as if there is a projection that corresponds exactly to the recessed portion in the back of the impeller so the exact shape of the recess probably isn't important.

 

407466363_Whitepump.jpg.45dcccac7a282c07ba8ba5bb55a3fde0.jpg

 

 

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Spoke with Gary, and we have decided to make them in bronze. I do t like the idea of aluminum even with the better alloys today. The bronze will hold much better with a set screw. And the set screws will be much easier to deal with and adjust the end play on the gear and impeller. And it will look good too! 👍
 

 

We will make four castings, and machine two impellers and shafts with gears.........the other two castings will get donated to the Peterson Museum, and the Western Reserve Museum who also have a identical engine platform.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Ed, I think you will need to send the pump housing and cover to Joe - and the shaft if he doesn't have it already.  Once the casting is done, the impeller will have to be fit carefully into the housing to get the clearances right.  It won't be very difficult, but does need attention.  I scaled the end of the bushing from the photo assuming the i.d. is 0.75" for the shaft and got an estimated o.d for the end of the bushing of about 1.07".  That will easily clear the recess in the back of the flat side.  Strangely, the housing doesn't appear to get narrower from the hub to the volute at the edge as detailed in the paper Joe posted.  We assume that the pump worked well enough for the times.

 

Joe: don't worry about the 0.45" radius on the back of the flat side, it will be there when cast.  The pattern has about 1/8" machining allowance to form the flat surface of ~1.24" dia.  where I think the impeller will ride against the bushing.  It just needs to be faced off there.  It's not clear what will keep the shaft pushing gently toward the bushing.  

 

I talked to Jim Dicenzo at RI Custom Casting and he is prepared to investment cast the parts in Everdur silicon bronze.  Ed signed off on bronze parts.  I had some other parts cast there.  I just need to finish printing out a few patterns to send there.  Normally turnaround is a week or so, but it's Christmas and Covid, might be a little longer.  

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It scares the hell out of me to ship the pump. No pump, no car. Packages are particularly slow, and stuff is getting lost and stuck by every shipper, and I really don’t want it out of my hands. I trust both you guys 100 percent.........I am not sure I can get past sending it out. There are NO alternatives if this pump disappears........none. With it driven by a helical gear and it also drives the generator.........this thing goes missing and the car becomes garage art never to run again.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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This car runs cool.......to be honest, I have never seen a better system. 106 degrees in Florida, and the car not only doesn’t overheat......it still can idle all day long and be below the normal operating range. Radiator is 104 years old and the temperature differential from top to bottom is impressive. I was reluctant to send Joe the shaft............and the impeller I photographed in and measured before I sent to you.  Detail in the event it got lost going to you(Gary). After six decades I trust my “feel” and will have to ponder what to do next. 🤔

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I was thinking with two set screws and two flat surfaces in the shaft I can easily adjust the impeller any way necessary.......only needing to be sure of the end play in either direction. The modification of the two set screws actually makes a huge improvement over the pin and the shim/washer set up that was factory. I will post more photos tomorrow of the pump housing and parts so we can ponder it.

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Ed, I’m going to FL on Monday and returning back to SE Ma on the 1st. I’m close to both joe and Gary and could drop off the parts to either if you want. You’d have to get me the parts though. I’ll be in the villages and Ocala area.

I forgot to say I’m driving down and back, not flying.

Edited by chistech (see edit history)
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31 minutes ago, chistech said:

Ed, I’m going to FL on Monday and returning back to SE Ma on the 1st. I’m close to both joe and Gary and could drop off the parts to either if you want. You’d have to get me the parts though. I’ll be in the villages and Ocala area.

I forgot to say I’m driving down and back, not flying.


 

That’s what makes this hobby, this club, and this forum so fantastic........people helping people. I very much appreciate your offer. I will call Joe in the morning and formulate a game plan. Recently a customer asked me to source him a part.......I told him even with no limit on budget.......I never expected to come across what he was looking for.........and I will admit to finding almost everything I have ever needed. I ended up finding two of what he was looking for..........talk about unicorn horns............what was it you ask? A FACTORY Duesenberg shift knob. Talk about unobtainum..........90 percent of Model J’s have reproductions or incorrect knobs on them. Finding another White water pump is impossible........and borrowing one is almost impossible. There are five engines in existence........two of which are in institutions that would never loan out a pump to copy. The third car is restored and I doubt the owner would let the pump out of his hands for any reason, and I can’t blame him. That leaves mine, and one other. We already formulated a plan in the event the water pump on my car was not repairable BEFORE I ever started servicing the car..........The pump on this car is clearly the most complicated and expensive pump you could ever have to reproduce. I don’t want to take any risks with it. We will get everything figured out.........we always do. Time, planning, and reflection are the keys to preventing a disaster.........I rather not make myself miserable.........or regret buying the car. Small steps......we will get to the finish line. I have three tours planned with the car in the next few months.......and the Hershey Fall Meet........a I have a debt of honor to get this thing across the line and let others see and enjoy the car. I can’t wait for Joe or Gary to drive it. I enjoy my cars the most when family or friends drive them.........great satisfaction.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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After reading that now I’m scared to haul it!😁 If I do, it will give me a good excuse to go over and have some tea with joe! Should also add that my wife and I drive straight through, sharing driving duty so the only time we stop is for gas and maybe a bathroom run. We don’t stay overnight anywhere so there’s not a big chance of something getting stolen either!

Edited by chistech (see edit history)
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OK, so the pump stays at Ed’s. If Joe can do the basic machining of two impeller castings, Ed can get any tweaking done in Florida. As there seems to have been a shim in the assembly originally, that will work to set the spacing. I’m still a little uneasy about the use of setscrews because vibration could loosen them over time. Maybe a couple drops of the penetrating green Loctite on the setscrews after tightening would hold them, though heat would be required to break them loose later.  There were reasons why water pump drives had cross pins with the ends peened over - they won’t fall out and the alignment can’t change. 

 

Two patterns printed, #3 started, #4 by tonight. Printing time is about 10 hours. 

 

02D96AF7-452E-4B29-9648-133713B3A81A.thumb.jpeg.0bcb5848ef6eb737701eb2c50990f9c5.jpeg

 

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In designing the pattern, I tried to maximize the ease of setup and minimize the complexity of the machining.  It should not be necessary to do any machining on the vanes.  I did increase the hub diameter by 1/8" so that Joe will have 1/4" of metal to tap for the set screws.  I don't think this presents a clearance problem.  As the back face of the flat disk and the face of the recessed area are machined, their separation distance may be critical.  I tried measuring the distance a couple of ways and it seems to be about 0.444".  I got measurements between 0.437" and 0.450", but it's not easy to measure this.  It may have been less originally but rubbing on the bushing may have taken off some metal.  Here is my list of what needs to be machined.

 

1869214770_impellermachining.thumb.png.961faf097cb601adb08751f01803f19f.png

 

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If Ed wants me to bring it to joe I will, I was just joking about being scared to transport it for him. Joe is only about 35 minutes from me and Gary as we both live in Dartmouth. I have no problem bringing the pump and it’s for no charge too. Helping out a fellow old car guy and keeping another old car on the road is what it’s about. Probably the worse thing is the villages are about 3 1/2hrs from palm beach.

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I agree about using some Locktite on the set screws once the adjustment is set and if the casting is bronze I'll use a fine thread set screw...that will give more surface area for the threads. I suspect one of the reasons they used a pin was that it was both faster and cheaper in a production setting, even with a low production engine like this one. I don't see them coming loose as I've done this before and never had a problem.

 

I used set screws on the pump I made from scratch but was careful to make the hub thick enough so that there would be good thread contact. Remember, they probably would have used "grub screws" with a slotted head. It's impossible to get those as tight as socket head screws although they were available at the time. Allen started marketing his "safety set screw" in 1910 but it took a long time before they were adopted in the automobile industry.

 

Oh..and Gary's drawings are so good that I shouldn't have a problem getting the dimensions spot on!

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I played a lot with Solidworks, and 5-axis CNC machines, in college as a mechanical engineering student. Haven't gotten to play with it much since, as I'm in the Navy now and operating, not designing things. That impeller drawing is great! Makes me want to buy a cad program and a 3D printer, and get to work!

Awesome to see the entire community come together on this project - best of luck Ed!

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56 minutes ago, Ken_P said:

I played a lot with Solidworks, and 5-axis CNC machines, in college as a mechanical engineering student. Haven't gotten to play with it much since, as I'm in the Navy now and operating, not designing things. That impeller drawing is great! Makes me want to buy a cad program and a 3D printer, and get to work!

Awesome to see the entire community come together on this project - best of luck Ed!

 

 

It's great that such talented people share their skills.......and I would be more than happy to return the favor to either of these two gentlemen. 

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Don't worry Ed..I'll think of something!

Perhaps, at some point when the Mitchell is a lot further along I'll be looking for a closed '20s car and it's clear you have a lot more connections than I do. If I had a place to put it and the extra money, I'd probably be looking now but I am not going to get bogged down with more unfinished projects... It's a terrible temptation but I agree that the market is moving away from the things I like so waiting is not going to hurt. The fact is, I don't care much about "styling" but I really like great engineering so it goes without saying I'll be looking for a "Classic"...

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Ed,

 

Be very careful about using setscrews to hold the water pump impeller on the shaft.  A fellow redid my water pump and used setscrews and they would loosen in a couple of heat up cool down cycles.  When that  ha  ppened the head cracked in six places.  Woe was me.  I took the thing apart and put a flat on the shaft and used red locktite to hold it .  The cracked head was another big problem.  The car was out of commission for a year and a half.  I would not do this without locktite.

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2 minutes ago, nickelroadster said:

Ed,

 

Be very careful about using setscrews to hold the water pump impeller on the shaft.  A fellow redid my water pump and used setscrews and they would loosen in a couple of heat up cool down cycles.  When that  ha  ppened the head cracked in six places.  Woe was me.  I took the thing apart and put a flat on the shaft and used red locktite to hold it .  The cracked head was another big problem.  The car was out of commission for a year and a half.  I would not do this without locktite.


 

Thanks for all the heads up.......I have done this before. We will use appropriate thread locker, along with another possibility.....have to have it in hand first. Joe and Gary are excellent craftsmen...........and with this thread so public.......they won’t risk their reputation on a failure. 🤭

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5 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Don't worry Ed..I'll think of something!

Perhaps, at some point when the Mitchell is a lot further along I'll be looking for a closed '20s car and it's clear you have a lot more connections than I do. If I had a place to put it and the extra money, I'd probably be looking now but I am not going to get bogged down with more unfinished projects... It's a terrible temptation but I agree that the market is moving away from the things I like so waiting is not going to hurt. The fact is, I don't care much about "styling" but I really like great engineering so it goes without saying I'll be looking for a "Classic"...


 

Joe, your welcome to take the White on any tour you would like. If one can’t share their passion for cars......why are we doing all of this? I think Gary world prefer a ride in something a bit faster than the White.......And I think I can accommodate him........maybe turn his hair a little bit more “White” with an exciting ride.

 

 

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I found a way to measure the depth of the recess in the back of the impeller.  I cut a short length of 1" diameter aluminum bar, turned it to be 0.440" thick, and put the little puck in the recess.  I laid a piece of 1"x1" steel bar over the back of the impeller partly covering the puck.  I could slide the puck around just a bit and the square bar didn't rock across it.  If I put a piece of paper between the puck and bar, I couldn't pull the paper out.  So, I think 0.440" is a good measurement for the depth.  There were no signs of metal removal on the surface of the recess, so maybe there wasn't any wear over the last 100 years.  

1933121441_recessdepth_440.thumb.JPG.3651d59a2b639ebe0a0266c8ce98b8e2.JPG

 

I made a 3-minute video of the process for creating the 3D CAD model and printing it out on the 3D printer.  The patterns took 9 hours each. Now I just need to get them to the foundry and on to Joe for finish machining. 

 

 

Edited by Gary_Ash (see edit history)
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25 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said:

I found a way to measure the depth of the recess in the back of the impeller.  I cut a short length of 1" diameter aluminum bar, turned it to be 0.440" thick, and put the little puck in the recess.  I laid a piece of 1"x1" steel bar over the back of the impeller partly covering the puck.  I could slide the puck around just a bit and the square bar didn't rock across it.  If I put a piece of paper between the puck and bar, I couldn't pull the paper out.  So, I think 0.440" is a good measurement for the depth.  There were no signs of metal removal on the surface of the recess, so maybe there wasn't any wear over the last 100 years.  

1933121441_recessdepth_440.thumb.JPG.3651d59a2b639ebe0a0266c8ce98b8e2.JPG

 

I made a 3-minute video of the process for creating the 3D CAD model and printing it out on the 3D printer.  The patterns took 9 hours each. Now I just need to get them to the foundry. 

 

 

 

Excellent! I would have used the same technique to measure the recess. I can now see that the radius on the back is cast rather than machined so I can safely ignore that and concentrate on the depth. I have a technique for that but probably can't get closer than .003...going in a specific depth on the lathe is tricky because there is no scale on the tail stock but some time ago I made a fixture to address this problem.

 

For anyone who is interested...the steps I will use to machine the impeller are to put it in a 4-jaw chuck, indicate the hub (with the 1/4" projection) and then bore and ream to 3/4" after which I'll turn the projection off. Then it goes on a mandrel to turn the OD, after which I put it on an expanding arbor and face the back off the desired measurement. The last step is face off the back holding it on an expanding arbor and put the surface on the bottom of the sunken part...

 

The holes for the set screws will go in on the drill press, following Terry's suggestion of putting in 2 at 90-degrees. There will be corresponding flats on the shaft about 1/8" deep and I'll use fine thread set screws, 5/16 long.

 

As a further thought...the whole purpose of this thread was to illustrate how these things can be done. It really isn't important whether the work is on the Mitchell or some other car so, rather than being a digression, I see this entire process as enhancing my original purpose.

 

[EDIT] You can see that Gary and I came up with nearly identical machining steps - that was done without our consulting each other, a further piece of evidence that we are on the right track.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Gary, if I’m not mistaken, the helical gear constantly pushes the shaft towards the back of the engine.....there were thrust washers in between each side of the pump housing, but the location of the impeller and pin caused it to float without coming into contact with the washers. Does this make sense to you? The gear rides in a huge bushing that is pressure fed with oil.......so if I am understanding what is going on correctly, only the rear face of the gear is in contact with the bushings regarding end play. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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While I worked on my plumbing at home over the weekend I gave the problem of fixing the cracked water pump casting some thought. Actually, my friend Mike West is sending me another pump so this is more in the way of an experiment to see if it can be done. Brazing cast iron pieces is a fairly common repair in the antique machinery world although rarely as thin as this one. The consensus seems to be that the entire part will have to be heated to nearly brazing temperature, the crack brazed and then cooled down very slowly. I give it about a 50% chance of succeeding - or a little more simply because in this case the iron is not oil soaked and it hasn't had the carbon burned out of it as an exhaust manifold would. In order to hold everything tightly together while working on it I'm making a plate to go over the studs and bear directly against the body of the casting. I'll put a bolt through the center and tighten it to close the crack... The plate is a piece of 1/2" steel left over from an earlier project. I wanted 1/2" because that is the length of the studs. I tried double-nutting them to take them out but they didn't move easily and I'm not going to force them.

 

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The hole in the center was threaded 1/2-13

 

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Then I set up the small dividing head to put the holes in. These will be larger than the studs...the measurements are as close as I can get them but probably aren't perfect and, since the holes are just there for clearance, getting the measurement perfect is unimportant. This was interesting though. There are 3 combinations of holes in the dividing plate that will make  6 holes evenly spaced. I used the 18 hole circle for which the handle has to be turned 6-12/18 times for each. You do that by setting the arms...

 

IMG_3780.thumb.JPG.6d7632872b4922f94ea770338fc073dc.JPG

 

I've only done this a few times and always have to think about it but it seemed to work properly...or at least I set it up properly. I only put center holes in as the setup is a bit too weak to be drilling a larger hole in 1/2" plate.

 

IMG_3781.thumb.JPG.451d39193e13e0ec569a62ae36eca0df.JPG

 

I'm still undecided on whether I'll try to do this myself or have it done. I think when the setup is complete I'll show it to the local guy I've used in the past and ask him if he can do it...chances are he has the right equipment to heat it and cool it properly. If not, I'll have to improvise something.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Silver solder was my first thought. I'd read that PM thread but like so many forum threads it rapidly generates so many opinions you don't know who to believe. The great shortcoming of the internet is that anyone can express an opinion but it's likely only a few of them have any real experience...it's much the same with cars - until you have been following a particular group for long time you don't have any good way of differentiating when yo don't know much about the subject to begin with.

 

I'll keep reading and eventually settle on a technique...

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58 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Silver solder was my first thought. I'd read that PM thread but like so many forum threads it rapidly generates so many opinions you don't know who to believe. The great shortcoming of the internet is that anyone can express an opinion but it's likely only a few of them have any real experience...it's much the same with cars - until you have been following a particular group for long time you don't have any good way of differentiating when yo don't know much about the subject to begin with.

 

I'll keep reading and eventually settle on a technique...

 

Agreed. I am looking through but all I can find are forum posts that go willy-nilly  or suppliers trying to hawk a product.  I was thinking silver solder to keep temp of the base material down. I have some reference material in my lab I might check tomorrow. I will email you if I find anything.

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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The only way to get the repair to hold is take it up to 1200-1400 degrees..............and cool it down over several days. Be sure to heat it up as an assembly.......... I think I would only run several half inch beads. Then use a cast iron pump sealer and crack filler on it. A eight inch run will crack along the repair in several places. You could do it a bit hotter, and run high nickel......but it’s all a coin toss. Since there is no temperature issue when in use.......I think just a few short beads and a modern epoxy repair is the best long term hope for use as a spare or emergency back up. That thing will be putting out so much heat your going to need a good welding outfit or you will get burned by the radiant heat. I understand the challenge of fixing it.......and the experimentation of the repair and if it will hold up, but time and materials are probably three times the value of a good core pump. I will be watching to see your decision.......and am rather certain of you choice already.............ten to one says Joe fixes it.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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There is a Locktite product that looked interesting...I'll have to find the link. Have you ever heard of it? There may also be something by Devcon. I've a lot more confidence in industrial products where the customers are always serious and the repairs have to hold.

 

I was thinking in terms of burying it in the center of a 5-gallon bucket of sand...I think it would take between 24 and 48 hours to cool.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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After welding it, it should be placed into the furnace for an hour or two at 1200 degrees, and then slowly lowered.....it would be best to keep it in an oven and lower it over time. I think the sand or clay in a bucket method would cool it too fast. It’s strange how one guy will do it cold on a table and it holds up fine, and doing it the “right” way and you end up with problems. Cast iron is inconsistent.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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I know...the gear selector on my lathe was broken when I got. I took the two pieces over to the only welder I could think of (not even thinking it was a potential problem) and left it with him. A few days later I came back and picked it up - electric welded with nickel rod. He charged me $20 and I've been using it for probably 35 years. It still looks ugly but works perfectly. But, that's no reason to think I can do it...or that precautions and planning aren't in order. I'm not in a hurry  as I've plenty to do with the other parts ... but it's an interesting problem and the sort of thing that we are likely to encounter again so it makes sense to see if it can be done well.

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I had a brutal day...having to shovel out about 60 feet of driveway so I could get my truck up to the door where I could work on it...I had to replace the front brake pads in order to get it inspected and tomorrow is the last day I can do it. Things did go about as well as they could. Some nitwit put the wheels on with an impact wrench and I needed my 24" Snap On breaker bar to get them off...I inherited the breaker bar from my cousin and now I understand why he kept it under the seat of his truck.

 

Years ago I worked for a Volvo dealership. The owner had a standing rule that the shop could not use an air wrench on lug nuts...I remember him calling the body shop guys together and giving them a lesson on how to put a wheel on. They were insulted, of course...(he knew they would be) but he got his point across, probably for about 2 days.

 

But, I finished early enough to drill some holes...

 

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I drilled them oversize as they are just clearance for the studs. I was close but didn't really expect it to be perfect.

 

IMG_3783.thumb.JPG.a92eb2ce78068bf739ef3f2fcd627022.JPG

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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19 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

There is a Locktite product that looked interesting...I'll have to find the link. Have you ever heard of it? There may also be something by Devcon. I've a lot more confidence in industrial products where the customers are always serious and the repairs have to hold.

 

I was thinking in terms of burying it in the center of a 5-gallon bucket of sand...I think it would take between 24 and 48 hours to cool.

Joe,

I am not one that normally likes to use glues and epoxy for metal repair but there is some good stuff out there. Looking at the Loctite website Expoxy Weld may be the ticket if you decide to go that route. The surface needs to be super clean (media blast maybe?) and it says it will work with iron. Interestingly the data sheet says no to painting.  

 

 

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I'm not enthusiastic about glues and epoxies either but if that does what its claimed it would eliminate the problems connected with heating...the problem I see is that while the housing is cracked it isn't broken all the way around and I don't see how it could be applied to the crack unless I broke it all the way...something I'm not anxious to do. I can say that I've been entirely satisfied with the Loctite products I've used. With a largely industrial customer base I think they are likely to be very wary of making claims that can't be substantiated.

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If its not broken all the way that sure makes soldering seem more appealing since it will fully penetrate the fracture. Maybe drill the ends first to stop any spread.

I agree on Loctite products. I used the 680 retainer compound and primer on a couple of projects - one being the Faux-American Bosh magneto switch. I couldn't thread the stem on the switch and heat from soldering would have damaged it. Its certainly worked as advertised. Below is the knob and face plate after I plated it.

 

IMG_0607.thumb.jpg.a76c2d2c90c9ad2d6e76e430ac952695.jpg

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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