My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[JV Puleo]

Ed, the number is S710

 

I didn't get into the shop today until a little after noon. The first thing was to switch the mill back to vertical mode. This took more time than I'd anticipated. The vertical head weighs almost 400 pounds and even with the crane, it's a bear of a job for one person. sometimes it goes very smoothly but today it fought back a little.

 

 

Then I set up the swivel vise using an indicator to get the jaws parallel with the table.

 

 

Because the register marks are gone, I put a little Dychem on the vise and scratched a line at 90-degrees - the swiveled it 2-degrees. The actual angle is 2.07 degrees but I doubt 7/100's of a degree makes any difference.

 

 

I set the key cutter. You do this by getting it flush with the shaft and then raising the table 1/2 the diameter of the shaft + 1/2 the width of the cutter. In this case .375+.0625.

As a test I cut a keyway in one of the pieces I'd used to set up the taper. It worked just fine but it turns out I don't have the right keys - I've some that are the right length but too deep and I found one that was the right depth but short. Woodruff keys are/were made in a wide range of sizes. It looks to me as if the White used use an unusually shallow one because the slot on the inside of the driver is not very deep (not that is has to be...a taper and a key is serious overkill for this job.) In any case, I'll send Ed half a dozen of the longer keys. Were I assembling the car myself, I'd just file one down to the right depth rather than buy 100 of them when all you need is 1.

 

 

Using the short one, I put the driving arm for the generator on and it fit just fine. When I took it apart, I dropped the key and can't find it...I must have more of them somewhere - if I have 1 I probably have 100 but they aren't in the proper drawer.

 

 

I finished the keyways...

 

 

thinking I had time to finish this but when I looked at the time, it was already almost 5:00 and I've got to make a run to Home Depot on the way home. So, I'm back to this tomorrow with the hope that we'll see it finally finished!

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The next step was to trim the two shafts to the finished length. This is taken from my measurement of the original shaft and the depth of the hole in the gear where the new shaft will be inserted. I purposely left these long, which turns out to have been prescient because when I had to re-do the taper on one of them I didn't have to make the entire piece over.

 

 

This is the one that had the bad cotter pin hole...the small amount of the original taper that is left won't have any effect on its function and, of course it will be completely hidden. The set screw collar on the shaft allowed me to take it out of the machine to measure it and replace it perfectly...that way I was able to get the length closer than if I'd just marked it.

 

 

I got them within about .002.

 

 

I then calculated the location of the flats for the set screws that hole the gear to the shaft and milled those.

 

 

 

Since I didn't get in until after 1:00, I didn't get a chance to finish but we are awfully close now.

Edited January 28, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The temperature this morning is 10F (that's -12C) so I'm looking forward to getting to the shop where I can warm it up to maybe 50.

[JV Puleo]

Today I get to report on some real progress...

I started by putting in the flats for the impeller set screws. These are measured from the end of the shaft. I locate the end and then move the table down the appropriate amount. I also mark the shaft as a double check since it's very easy for me to miscalculate how many turns of the handle it will take. In fact, I did that today but the mark saved me from making an error.

 

 

The two shafts with the flats all cut, now ready to assemble with the gear.

 

 

The shaft and gear went into the press. The set screw collar on the shaft is a stop, located so that I can only go in the proper depth. The nut on the top of the shaft is there to protect the end of the shaft and prevent it from mushrooming under pressure.

 

 

The shaft was then pressed in. The hole in the gear was reamed .0005 under size making it a press fit with the ground stock I used for the shafts. The combination of the press fit and the set screws will make this, effectively, one piece. Because I made the piece in this manner, the actual length of the shaft is slightly adjustable...possibly as much as .050 in each direction which ought to be far more than can possibly be needed. The White factory must have had both prints and fixtures for this but, lacking them, we need to be able to make corrections.

 

 

And there we have them...

 

 

The last piece are the projections at the front of the gear. You will remember that I made these a lot longer than the original thinking I would hold the gear with them when cutting the teeth. That didn't happen so now then have to be turned down to the finished size.

 

 

The finished diameter is 5/8" and the length, if my notes are correct, should be a total of 1.650 including the gear.  Because the counter bores in the gears are slightly different, the length is different by about .020 - which I doubt has any significance since there is an adjustment on the timing case for this and I suspect the only purpose of this piece is to keep someone from pushing the gear in too far when working on the water pump.

 

 

So...that's it. They are DONE - or at least as done as I can make them. Tomorrow I'll come in and find an appropriate box to ship them in. I think both will work but that one is slightly better than the other...but the proof is in the pudding - we'll have to wait until Ed gets them and tries to install them to really know if I've succeeded.

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Well Done!

[edinmass]

Joe.The ratchet kit went out today priority mail to the shop. I’ll send you the tracking number on it tomorrow. The shaft, gear, and impeller look fantastic! As Henry Leland said...........”Craftsmanship is our creed, and accuracy is our law.” As you know, he was known world wide as “The master of precision.” Your willingness to take this project on, find the correct tooling, working out the math, figuring out how to redesign the part, and actually getting the entire project across the finish line is simply........impressive. I know the joy of taking on a project that others wouldn’t or couldn’t........and making it a positive outcome is very rewarding. I’m very grateful  that you decided to work on this challenge. A fantastic part made the old school way. No automated machines, no computer controls, just old fashioned American ingenuity. You sir, are a fast disappearing breed. 
 

Thank You! I rarely give three thumbs up for a job well done. You have earned a never before given by me four thumbs up! 👍 👍 👍 👍 

Edited January 30, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

White Car Update:

 

Today Phil and I added up our time from unloading the car off the trailer, sorting it out, servicing it, and making it a car again. Hours were recorded every day. Both Phil’s time, and mine. So......here we go. We will be taking best guesses as to actual “billable time“ and actual cost of parts, supplies, tools, ect. The totals I provide will NOT include the time Gary Ash or Joe P. will have done. Nor will it include the material cost of the castings or machining stock.  When we added up all out time, I was shocked. Ok gentlemen......guess away. Ed

[JV Puleo]

I'd guess....about 280 hours and about $9,000 in miscellaneous materials.

 

I should probably revise that guess upward. I just added up what I spent on 1 part and I'm shocked!

Edited January 30, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

3 hours ago, BobinVirginia said:

@JV Puleo

 

...Great stuff and you’re a throwback to a different time.

 

Years ago I was talking with an old friend, the late Professor Ray Houghton, while he was burning a brush pile in the field next to his house...he said "the problem with you, Puleo, is that you're a 19th century person."

[JV Puleo]

Now that  the White parts are all packed up and ready to go, I have got to get back to the thermostat housing I was making and the Cadillac water pumps. I put the big chuck on the lathe and indicated this bronze bushing. This will be the sleeve that holds the two halves of the thermostat housing together. Rather  than buy a big [iece of brass and bor it out, I went the cheap way and got a big bushing.

 

 

Bored out to what I thought was the minor diameter of the threads...

 

 

 

Except I miscalculated something because it does not look as if the hole was big enough. That doesn't ruin anything but it makes the threading take longer.

 

 

I got it to the point where the housings will just start in the thread but it's 6 PM and I'm afraid if I push it, I'll make an error. Besides, it's the coldest weekend so far and I have to get back an turn  the heat on. Hopefully, I'll finish this tomorrow...

[edinmass]

On 1/29/2021 at 8:47 PM, JV Puleo said:

I'd guess....about 280 hours and about $9,000 in miscellaneous materials.

 

I should probably revise that guess upward. I just added up what I spent on 1 part and I'm shocked!

 

 

 

Currently at 460 hours. Not including the pump impeller & shaft. We have 60 more to go, just on the mechanicals. Then we will address the top and seat covers. Total out of pocket cost so far..........over 9k for supplies, outside services like flushing the gas tank, ect. And it was all done in a fully equipped shop with two old guys with lots of pre war car experience. Special tools we made or sourced are not included either. 

 

You wonder why we don't see too many young people in the hobby. 

[JV Puleo]

Well...I underestimated the hours but I have always had that problem...so much so that a few months ago when I said a job would take me an hour I was shocked when it actually took an hour - so much so that I told my friend Stuart who knows me well enough to realize my time estimates are nearly always wrong. That happens very rarely.

 

Today's Mitchell  report is a good example. I started threading the sleeve for the thermostat housing on Saturday. It's a job that should have taken, at the most, 2 hours. But, I miscalculated the hole size to start with and I made an error setting up the internal threading tool. Three DAYS later I'm finally finished. Not that I worked on it for 8 hours each day but it was a real ordeal. The only good thing to come from the experience is that I realized what I'd done wrong and likely will not do it again. The part, however, looks pretty good...

 

 

The two halves of the holder screw into this.

 

 

And one end gets soldered in place.

 

 

Then back in the lathe and the OD skimmed to get the marks from the chuck out and make it perfectly round.

 

 

Tomorrow I'll put a knurl on it. The thermostat fits perfectly but there isn't enough room for a conventional thermostat gasket so I'll use an O ring above and below the outer flange.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Joe......as a I get older, I find taking my time to think things over is my best skill set. It also like to think five or ten moves ahead.........trying to restore, sort, or repair a pre war car is understanding the big picture.......and not loosing focus on it. Best example is my White. I could have taken it all apart and hit twenty projects at once. Problem is, then the car is all apart. You could have two or three issues holding you up from testing. I like to sort one problem at a time.........maybe two. I like to get them fixed 100 percent, and then move on to the next item on the list. Focusing on just one or two items makes things much more manageable. Only drawback is the increased length of time to get the car done.

 

I spent about fifteen hours working on AJ’s Stearns to get the smoking issue fixed. 14 hours talking to experts and studying manuals. One hour to fix it. Using you head to fix a problem is better than using your hands.

Edited February 4, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I agree. I find that if I focus on one thing until it gets done I'm much happier with the result. I suppose that is why the Mitchell is taking so long but I'm determined to finish the engine - which was the least complete component – first. I'm hoping that, with that done, sitting on a stand and tested, the rest will be a largely downhill run. A long one but I will not have that big job hanging over my head. I hardly ever think of the car as completed and running - at least not with a specific date in mind. The goal is to do it right no matter how long it takes.

 

Of course, it was already dismantled when I got it. If it hadn't been, I do not think I would have taken it apart....OH, and like you, I'm always planning two or three jobs in the future. I find that I discard a lot of plans that way and usually think of the best plan well into the job.

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Once your engine is finished and running.....the rest of the chassis should go fairly fast. Then you can run it around while you finish up the body.

[JV Puleo]

The thermostat housing with the surface knurled...

 

 

To break up the mass of knurled surface I added stripes at the ends and the middle.

 

 

and with the thermostat in place...

 

 

This is how it's intended to work...soldered to the end of the water manifold on the top of the engine. However, until I'm sure it doesn't hit something I'll leave it alone...if I solder it on I'll trim it so that it's just about up against the front "T" fitting.

 

 

And having finished that...I'm back on the Cadillac water pumps.

 

[JV Puleo]

Today started with boring out the end of the Cadillac water pump housing, taking the threads that are there out. You'll remember I had to do this with the first pump because the brass fitting that screws in here was broken. I made new ones and it seems appropriate to do both pumps the same way although thi8s pump, aside frm the cracked housing, is in much better shape.

 

 

Then threaded...

 

 

And the fitting screwed in to make sure it bottoms correctly.

 

 

I then pressed the original bushing out...

 

 

I want to clean both halves of the housing by boiling them in caustic soda. I have several things on order to do that but, as they aren't here yet and I can't go forward until they arrive I decided to look at the spring shackles I had a problem with some time ago. I'd ordered the materials but chose to keep this job in abeyance until I had time between other things. The first step was to cut a piece of this 3"x3"x1-1/2 steel...

 

 

I'll go as far as I can with this until the stuff arrives for the water pumps.

[JV Puleo]

I cut another piece for the spring shackles and then went back to the water pump. I screwed it onto my 1"-20 threading gauge so I could spin it in the lathe with the center concentric.

 

 

And used a 1-1/4 counter bore to dress the seat the flange of the bearing will bear against. There was accumulated rust and crud in there so the amount of metal actually removed was very small.

 

 

Then I tried cooking it in caustic soda (lye) to get as much of the old oil and grease out as possible. I'd never done this before and I suspect I didn't use a strong enough solution but it seemed to work well. I need to perfect this part of the job because I'll want to do this with the other half of the pump and getting the crack perfectly clean is essential.

 

 

I then reamed out the hole that had held the lower part of the original thermostat. The caustic soda bath revealed a crack in the casting (the other pump was cracked in this place as well) but I am plugging this hole up so the crack isn't critical if the plug works correctly.

 

 

The new bushing was pressed in.

 

 

After which I soldered a piece of 1/2" brass rod in as a plug which reaches all the way to the bushing. The idea is to prevent coolant from getting in there. I'm reasonably sure the cracks were the result of letting it freeze with water in the system and I suspect it didn't drain all that well...most likely when it got older and there was accumulated schmutz in the system.

 

[JV Puleo]

The Cadillac water pump job is progressing... after cleaning the casting up I pressed in the new bushing and drilled out the holes for the grease on either side. I didn't think to take a picture but it's very easy to get the hole perfectly aligned by screwing in a 1/8NPT brass nipple and using a drill that matches the ID...one of the few jobs I'll do with a hand drill. I also forgot to take a picture after it was painted but suffice it to say, it's black now. The clean cast iron - the result of the hot lye - painted very well.

 

 

I've spent quite a bit of time looking for the best solution to sealing the crack and decided to try a low temp silver solder. In this case, it is fluid at about 500 degrees - hotter than lead solder but nowhere near as hot as brazing. If the specs are correct (as I believe they are) it's about 5 times as strong as lead solder. The fact is, it doesn't have to be all that strong since there is no pressure. The critical aspect is "will it capillary into the crack and seal it." I don't know that it will but I'll be finding out. I think the hot lye bath is important here because getting the surface absolutely clean is the most important part. I am thinking that the lower temp will minimize the chance of the casting cracking again as it cools. I still have to set all that up and the solder hasn't arrived yet but this is a case where I will probably spend much more time thinking about the job before I do it than the actual job will take.

 

In the meantime, I did a little more on the spring shackles. This is a temporary fixture set up on the drill press with a couple of angle blocks. By locating the hole and placing it so that it is relative to the blocks I can use the same setup for all 4 holes without having to measure and be assured that they will come out in exactly the same place.

 

 

With one drilled and reamed, I flipped it over to do the next one...

 

 

This may not be "perfect" but there is a limit to how much precision is needed for a spring shackle.

 

Also, I was able to fix my Snap On 1/2" ratchet, thanks to Ed who got me the rebuild kit. I bought this driver when I was in my late 20s...so 40 years ago. I think I wore it out in 20 years and it's been in my tool box for 20 years more waiting to repair! I had to find a little tool to do this but, with that in hand, it came out perfect and is good for another 20 years...by which time I'll be almost 90 so I think it's effectively fixed forever.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I've very little to report today. I got a late start and went to see my cutter-grinding friend to have a special horizontal milling cutter ground. Since I ruined the first set of spring shackles I'm taking extra care with this set. I did finish drilling and reaming the holes...

 

 

But most of the afternoon was used measuring and sketching tools I'll have to make. Fortunately, all the bits I need will be used elsewhere on this project so it's time will spent.

[JV Puleo]

The copper brake lining on the Great White got me thinking so I cleaned up one of the Mitchell brake bands. Who knows if they are original to the car but they are certainly very old and I suspect this car was off the road by the end of WWI though it probably saw some rough use as a farm truck....it's the proverbial "floor scrapings". In any case, notice that the rivets aren't countersunk. The drums are in reasonably good condition - much better than the drums on the REO I owned years ago and I know that car spent years hauling boxes out of cranberry bogs on Cape Cod.

 

 

I am progressing, slowly, with the Cadillac water pumps. I bought a cheap hot plate and a more expensive steel pot to cook it in caustic soda. This was to get the oil and grease out that had accumulated in the 100 years since it was built...there is no evidence this car was ever kept very clean.

 

 

I then "V'd" the crack slightly with a small cut-off wheel in my Dremel tool. Since the wall thickness is only about 1/8" I was careful to do this quite lightly. I then cooked it again. Notice that the water is much cleaner this time, leading me to think I've finally de-greased it.

 

 

And while it was cooking I spent some time looking at the rear hubs. I haven't looked at these in a couple of years...partly because they posed some problems I couldn't think of a way to solve. This is a full floating rear axle. the axles themselves are kept in place by that cross-shaped piece which, in turn, fits into tapered notches in the hubs. The problem is that this is the good "cross" - the other one was probably worn and has suffered the attentions of the inevitable "welding fixes everything" mechanic who filled the tapered sides. It's a 3-degree taper and re-cutting it will not be easy. I may have to make one and, if so, will replace both pieces. Also, it would be stronger if the hole in the center was a spline rather than a square. I also have some bearing problems as you can see it uses overzise bicycle bearings. All of these are damaged and in all but one case, the "cup" is actually broken.

 

 

I'm not going very far with this yet but it's a good example of why you often have to spend more time thinking about the repair beforehand than you do making it.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Reasonably similar to my Staver. Most of my rear end is in decent mechanical condition. Brakes and drums are rough from sitting in the dirt. The car has suffered mainly from spending many years outside. The actual mechanical wear is not bad at all compared to what I have generally seen on 1912 era cars. The only other car I know of that uses the same rear end { Sheldon Axle Co. }  as my Staver is the Michigan  40. Not many Michigan parts in circulation either.

 

Greg

Edited February 17, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Nice cooking set up. My White brake bands go into the oven tomorrow at 10 am, when my buddies wide leaves for work! I purchased a few cookie tin sheets to place the bands on while heating to prevent anything hitting the floor of the oven. It’s been about ten years since I have baked brake components. My linings look like new........they are obviously original with only 11k on the car. I’m hoping for a large improvement in breaking efficiency after the overhaul, and removing the grease and contaminants. We will know before the end of the month. 

[edinmass]

Joe......I think I would place the pump housing in the hot plate and heat it to 375 for a few hours to be sure everything is burned out of the casting. Depending on process, I would heat the casting up to a fairly high temperature and slowly drop it down over a day or two to stress relieve. It’s common to get leaks along the weld or braise so it might be a good idea to paint the inside of the pump with a pump casting sealer when finished. 

[JV Puleo]

I like that idea...I'll do it. I also like the idea of a sealer and Ill to that to.

I'm trying to remember what the sealer we discussed re: Mat Harwood's Lincoln was...

I find the internet a real pig to use - giving me dozens of completely unrelated answers to a simple query.

 

[edit] Found it. Loctite 2000. It looks as if it would do the job by itself but I'm not going there. There is plenty of room inside the pump to coat it so I'll do that too.

Edited February 17, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

Reasonably similar to my Staver. Most of my rear end is in decent mechanical condition. Brakes and drums are rough from sitting in the dirt. The car has suffered mainly from spending many years outside. The actual mechanical wear is not bad at all compared to what I have generally seen on 1912 era cars. The only other car I know of that uses the same rear end { Sheldon Axle Co. }  as my Staver is the Michigan  40. Not many Michigan parts in circulation either.

 

Greg

 

Oddly enough, Mike West had the remains of a Michigan 40 not long ago. Were I not committed to the Mitchell project I'd have been interested in it.

My rear axle is in about the same condition as yours except I don't think it was left outside...its rusty but there is too much original paint left. I suspect it was stuck in the back corner of a barn for 60 or 80 years. It shows very little actual wear but wear on this car is spotty. Some parts are terribly worn, like the throw-out bearing, while others look nearly new. The Ring and pinyon show almost no wear but there is a place on the holder for the ring gear that is badly galled. I think this is all a result of spotty engineering - making do with what was available cheap.

[Terry Harper]

Joe,

 

On the lye solution try to skim off any crud that is floating on the surface before pulling the part out. Otherwise it will leave film. I always washed my parts down after the soak with lacquer thinner or acetone or even soapy water to make sure any film was gone.

 

In regards to Mike's Michigan 40 - I am not sure how the new owner is making out but I have a set of drawings we put together for the connecting rods. 

 

[JV Puleo]

Supposedly, the silver solder arrived today but as yet I haven't seen it...it may be in the company mail box and I don't have the key. Hopefully, it will be on my desk tomorrow morning. In any case, I'm getting close to doing this. I did mill a notch in the plate the pump housing attaches to...

 

 

This is to give me access to the crack where it travels up to the rim of the casting.

 

 

And while I was doing that, I boiled the casting again in hot soapy water.

 

 

This picture was taken at the end of the day and the water is relatively clean but before I solder it I will heat the entire piece up to 350 degrees for an hour or two to burn out any moisture that may remain and then soak it in laquer thinner...I think that is about as clean as I can get it. I also ordered some cast iron sealing putty to use on the inside of the pump after the soldering.

[JV Puleo]

This weekend's job was to silver solder the crack in the casting.

 

I bought an inexpensive propane camping burner to heat it and used that to cook it for an hour or two at about 450-degrees to get all the moisture out.

 

 

Then soaked it in acetone...

 

 

And set it up again with all the needed bits & pieces at hand.

 

 

Unfortunately, it didn't work. The low temp solder I bought simply didn't stick. I'm sure I must have done something wrong but I'm not sure what. I'm not very good with heat...one of the reasons I avoid using it. In any case, I do have a plan B...the materials are on the way so today I started over cleaning it. This time I put it on the electric hot plate, set to the lowest heat - and cooked it in Evaporust all day. Tomorrow I'll take it out and put it in the acetone for two or three days...

 

 

I'm also not very good at standing around. Ed's job on the White brakes got me thinking about the differential on the Mitchell. I've had this apart for years and I confess to putting it aside because I just couldn't think of a good way of addressing it's problems. With a couple more years of experience behind me I decided to give it a second try.

 

 

 

The worst part is the severe galling on the ends that supported the Hyatt bearing. These surfaces are not hardened and the galling appears to have been caused by the thrust bearing - which is hardened. After something like 4 hours of searching I was finally able to identify a heavy duty roller bearing that I think I can use to replace the Hyatt bearings and which will work with an internal sleeve. I will have to turn the projections on the differential down from 2-1/8" to 2" and press the sleeves on but that should give me a perfect machined surface to work with. The bearing have been ordered (I was able to find them on ebay for about 1/4 the regular price - new and still in the boxes). Another problem is the outer seal. I didn't take pictures of that but there is a felt seal at the outer end of the projections to keep the oil in the rear end from lubricating the brakes. It's a pressed steel holder with a felt seal. I have an idea what to do there but we'll have to see how well it works.

 

In the meantime I took the differential apart. My guess is that Mitchell-Lewis did not make this part since the workmanship is much better than that on the engine and chassis. In fact, aside from the galling, the parts look just about "good as new" and I'm glad I don't have to make them!

 

 

Also, it looks as if I mis-measured the location of the impeller on the White water pump shaft and I'll have to make those again. This is one reason why we made it in two pieces...thankfully I don't have to make the gears. Making the shaft isn't a piece of cake but having done it already, and having the special tools I made for the job, it shouldn't be a problem. I've already ordered the materials.

[Terry Harper]

Hello Joe,

 

I have found out the hard way that flux is very important. Awhile back I had to soft solder a fitting together for a temperature gauge probe. Now I have soldered a lot of brass and bronze pieces (particularly a big intake manifold and the water manifold for my T-head) but this one gave me the devil. I fluxed it, applied heat and the solder simply rolled off. I cleaned it, etc. and tried it four times with the same dismal result. Then I started thinking about the flux. From what I could tell the flux was simply burning away. It was cheap stuff that I don't even remember what brand. I found some flux I used for another project that was a different brand etc. and it worked perfect!

 

 

[JV Puleo]

Yes...I was thinking the same thing on the way home tonight and I'm reasonably sure that was the problem. I have other flux so perhaps I'll try it.

[1912Staver]

18 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

This weekend's job was to silver solder the crack in the casting.

 

I bought an inexpensive propane camping burner to heat it and used that to cook it for an hour or two at about 450-degrees to get all the moisture out.

 

 

Then soaked it in acetone...

 

 

And set it up again with all the needed bits & pieces at hand.

 

 

Unfortunately, it didn't work. The low temp solder I bought simply didn't stick. I'm sure I must have done something wrong but I'm not sure what. I'm not very good with heat...one of the reasons I avoid using it. In any case, I do have a plan B...the materials are on the way so today I started over cleaning it. This time I put it on the electric hot plate, set to the lowest heat - and cooked it in Evaporust all day. Tomorrow I'll take it out and put it in the acetone for two or three days...

 

 

I'm also not very good at standing around. Ed's job on the White brakes got me thinking about the differential on the Mitchell. I've had this apart for years and I confess to putting it aside because I just couldn't think of a good way of addressing it's problems. With a couple more years of experience behind me I decided to give it a second try.

 

 

 

The worst part is the severe galling on the ends that supported the Hyatt bearing. These surfaces are not hardened and the galling appears to have been caused by the thrust bearing - which is hardened. After something like 4 hours of searching I was finally able to identify a heavy duty roller bearing that I think I can use to replace the Hyatt bearings and which will work with an internal sleeve. I will have to turn the projections on the differential down from 2-1/8" to 2" and press the sleeves on but that should give me a perfect machined surface to work with. The bearing have been ordered (I was able to find them on ebay for about 1/4 the regular price - new and still in the boxes). Another problem is the outer seal. I didn't take pictures of that but there is a felt seal at the outer end of the projections to keep the oil in the rear end from lubricating the brakes. It's a pressed steel holder with a felt seal. I have an idea what to do there but we'll have to see how well it works.

 

In the meantime I took the differential apart. My guess is that Mitchell-Lewis did not make this part since the workmanship is much better than that on the engine and chassis. In fact, aside from the galling, the parts look just about "good as new" and I'm glad I don't have to make them!

 

 

Also, it looks as if I mis-measured the location of the impeller on the White water pump shaft and I'll have to make those again. This is one reason why we made it in two pieces...thankfully I don't have to make the gears. Making the shaft isn't a piece of cake but having done it already, and having the special tools I made for the job, it shouldn't be a problem. I've already ordered the materials.

 

 

I doubt any of the smaller makers made parts like axles , either front or rear. But there were a number of outfits back in the day that only made things like axles or gearboxes or steering gears. In the earliest days  { pre 1904 or so }  I get the impression quite a few of the pioneer auto makers made everything. But as the industry matured outside suppliers for basic mechanical components became the norm.

 

Greg

[1912Staver]

15 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Yes...I was thinking the same thing on the way home tonight and I'm reasonably sure that was the problem. I have other flux so perhaps I'll try it.

 

 

Not sure I would even attempt to solder. A nickel bronze braze ; eg. Sifbronze or similar, would be my preference. Yes , flux is key!

 

Greg

[JV Puleo]

It's actually a low temp silver silver solder...I'll try it again with a different flux and if it doesn't work I'll go to the silver braze. I'm trying to avoid heating the casting too much as I'm afraid of it cracking again but the part is useless as is so I have to keep working at it.

[JV Puleo]

35 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

 

 

I doubt any of the smaller makers made parts like axles , either front or rear. But there were a number of outfits back in the day that only made things like axles or gearboxes or steering gears. In the earliest days  { pre 1904 or so }  I get the impression quite a few of the pioneer auto makers made everything. But as the industry matured outside suppliers for basic mechanical components became the norm.

 

Greg

 

That is my thought too. While they said them made everything, I know they didn't make the springs (since the name of the maker is stamped on them where you can't see it unless you take them apart). You only have to read Horseless Age to get a feeling for the number of specialty manufacturers making single components - often to the specifications of the so-called "maker".

[1912Staver]

26 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

It's actually a low temp silver silver solder...I'll try it again with a different flux and if it doesn't work I'll go to the silver braze. I'm trying to avoid heating the casting too much as I'm afraid of it cracking again but the part is useless as is so I have to keep working at it.

 

 

As long as you bring the temp up slowly and evenly and cool down if anything even slower you should have no problem with cracking. It's temp. differences within the part that put stress on the part and lead to cracking. With something as small as the pump housing this should not be too hard to achieve. You want the housing at a dull cherry red heat at least . Best to look up recommended temps and keep as close to that figure as possible.

Greg

Edited February 23, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The silver brazing temp is about 1250. The instructions for the silver brazing material I've ordered say to preheat to at least 350 but I can go hotter than that and wonder if that is a good idea. It also says to allow it to air cool but I generally use a barrel of sand...drop the hot piece in, cover it and come back the next day.

[1912Staver]

That might be a bit too rapid. The recommended way is to build a small enclosed  space , only a little larger than the part itself , out of firebrick. Sort of a mini oven. Have one side open to work but as soon as you are finished, place additional bricks enough to fully enclose the hot part. Then as you say leave for at least several hours. I think the sand will conduct heat away too quickly, you want as little of the part in contact with anything that will conduct heat away from the part. Air is fine as long as a small space with little exchange with the outside atmosphere.  Try to support the housing off the bottom of your mini oven with a small piece of firebrick. Similar to pottery being fired in a kiln.

Silver soldering and brazing is often used for joining non ferrous metals. They are much less likely to crack than a ferrous casting and can withstand more rapid cooling.

Greg

Edited February 23, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Greg...you've given me an Idea I can pursue tomorrow.

[Laughing Coyote]

I used to weld cast iron with hastelloy (nickle) rod and a TIG welder and it worked great. Just a suggestion. I'm sure you will get it handled what ever way you go.