JV Puleo Posted December 28, 2020 Author Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) I can't say things have been rolling along on my projects...at least two things are tied up in the post office...stuff I've ween waiting two weeks for that should have taken two or three days. Between that and replacing the hot water heater at my house I've hardly been in the shop but today I tackled the large bushing that is also the holder for the water pump seals. If you remember, I bored this out the last time...not understanding how it worked. This time I wanted to press it out in one piece. It is retained by a brass pin that was inserted through a hole in the casting. After discovering it was too stuck to just push out, I decided to try drilling it out. The problem is lining up the drill with the pin in a place you can's see. To do this I turned this little drill bushing...3/8" OD with a 1/4" hole in the center. I pressed that into the hole in the casting and then drilled the pin, first with a long center drill and then with a 1/4" drill. That worked as well as I could hope for...in fact, I think I spent more time thinking about how to do it than the job took to do. The plan was to renew the bushing as I did the last time but when I finally had it in hand and could measure it I realized this bushing is not badly worn at all. I'll use Locktite press fit "glue" to hold it in and turn it 90-degrees so the two holes don't line up. I'm not sure if I'll use this piece with the replacement housing...it may be better to use the one that is fitted to it but I won't be able to tell until I've seen it. In the meantime, it was critical that this be removed before I try to seal the crack. For that, I've decided to try "low temp" silver solder. (Which still requires a temp of 1200 to 1300 degrees F.) Cleaning the casting so the solder will adhere is a problem – all of this will take some planning. Thanks are due Terry Harper for some ideas on the cleaning process...actually, I think that is the critical part of the job. If the surfaces are perfectly clean the solder should adhere without any issue. Edited December 29, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Joe, Using the little bushing to line-up the drill? GENIUS! its one of those solutions that after you see it you ask yourself "Why didn't I think of that!" Its learning little tricks like this that make these restoration threads so useful. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 30, 2020 Author Share Posted December 30, 2020 I took the discussion of using set screws on the water pump impeller to heart...so I took the pump I'd completed apart and put some red "high strength" Loctite on the threads. Since it has to get up to 600 degrees for the Loctite to soften these should be fine. There is also a flat on the shaft beneath the screws so they bottom against a flat surface... The test gear finally got to Ed...after 18 days to travel from RI to Florida so I'm killing time until we know it it is right or I have to make adjustments. In the meantine, I made this bushing to go with the plate I made earlier - all to bolt the cracked housing tightly together if and when I silver solder it... This will go where the bronze bushing was...it will have to be heated to about 1200 degrees so I want everything tight before I try that...it won't be easy to handle. This is how it's supposed to work... And I did test it. It lines up perfectly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 In one of my previous professional incarnations, I got involved in supporting a vacuum brazing operation to repair large jet engine compressor disks that had cracked. They sprinkled nickel powder on the crack, heavily sprayed with clear Krylon to hold the powder in place, then heated the disks in a high temperature vacuum furnace to melt the nickel and braze the part together. The high temperature vaporized the Krylon as the nickel powder melted. Careful cooling followed. Apparently, there are related furnace brazing processes for cast iron using vacuum or some gas atmosphere like hydrogen or argon. While these processes are typically aimed at industrial and aerospace customers, maybe there is a vendor who could perform such service for the water pump. I’d start at RI Heat Treating in Providence. http://www.riheattreating.com/index.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 (edited) That is an interesting idea. RI Heat treating used to be in Providence - they were the last time I used them. I know where they are and I'll talk to them before I do anything. This is a case where I'd love to find a suitable vendor. Much as I like to do things myself, I'm not comfortable with this and having the right equipment makes a world of difference. Thanks! Edited December 31, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 31, 2020 Author Share Posted December 31, 2020 I'm afraid these last two weeks have been a washout for me. They always are...but my late mother, who was a fantastically talented seamstress and always had projects under way, always said "do something every day and the job will get done." So, all I accomplished today was to put the oil slinger grooves in the White water pump gears. It isn't much, but it is something. Here's hoping next year will be a lot more productive... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. Ballard 35R Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Joe, if I did a fraction of what you have done this year it would be amazing. Don't sell yourself short-you have done some magnificent work ! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 6, 2021 Author Share Posted January 6, 2021 Today's report on the White gear. Ed tells me it fits perfectly when fully engaged but that there is some dragging when pushing it in. That sounds very close so he's sending me the test gear to look at and we'll go from there. Overall, I'm pleased with this. It would have been a miracle if it fit perfectly on the first try. The big question in my mind was the angle of the teeth and we've apparently hit that right on...I suspect it's just a matter of tooth depth but I may make another test gear just to be sure. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) According to Fedex tracking, the test gear should be here Monday. In the meantime, because I can't use the mill until the gears are done, I looked around for some lathe work. One of the things I'd planned to make was an in-line thermostat holder. I realize they weren't invented in 1910 - or, in the modern form, for a long time after that but I regard temperature control to be very important in keeping an engine running consistently well. All brass-era cars over cooled as a result of the limitations of the technology available at the time so my goal is to make a holder that will not look out of place despite the fact that it is clearly an anachronism. Unfortunately, when I went through the brass bits on the shelf I didn't have what I needed for most of it. But, I did have some brass hex stock so I made these two nuts...they are threaded to assemble them. When done, they will be soldered in place. Bored to 1.075 for a 1-1/8-20 thread. Then threaded. I've never done it this way before but these nuts are only going to be 1/4" thick so I made them as one piece and then cut them off. 'Im using one of my thread gauges as the fixture to hold with spacers from one of my horizontal mill arbors to hold the piece out where I can cut it off. All of which worked pretty well. I have to face them off and put a chamfer on one edge... Edited January 8, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 This morning I finished up the little nuts...by coincidence, the left over piece was also the right thickness - though it hadn't been planned that way so I ended up with 3 rather than 2. And, the test gear came back from Ed. This proved to be a tough picture to take since it's so reflective but you should be able to see the burr created when Ed tried to slide the gears together. What doesn't show well is that it is exactly on what is called the pitch circle...the edge where the tooth narrows. I suspect that the teeth are about .010 too shallow but I am going to send this picture to a couple of friends that are real machinists and get their opinion on the best way to deal with it. Keep in mind that matching a gear made more than 100 years isn't as precise as it would be today. The White pre-dates the ASME standards a modern gear would probably match. One of the reasons for using helical gears was that the actual dimensions were more flexible than spur gears...as it is, the original gear isn't quite the size you'd expect it to be so some fiddling to get it just right is to be expected. While I wait for some opinions I have another test gear, one of those I didn't finish because I had a problem with the dividing head. The teeth are (if I remember correctly) about .010 deeper. I'll measure it again tomorrow and, if it is promising send it to Ed to try. The fact that all the teeth aren't cut will not matter since you only need 3 to test engagement and I cut 10 before things went sideways. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 The joys of automobiles that are impossible to find parts for..............👍👍👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 11, 2021 Author Share Posted January 11, 2021 I've thought about that...but I have to admit that if all that was available was a Model A or T I'd be bored and would likely quit and do something else. I suspect I just like the challenge. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 Joe......when the White is all done.......we are going to do a road trip.............👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Good... Actually, my goal for the Mitchell is to go on one of my "adventures"...like my ride from RI to Long Island 30 some odd years ago. Alone, or perhaps with a friend if I have any up to the challenge, but a long trip to see just how well I can deal with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Joe, I'll be glad to ride with you from Woonsocket to New London, CT, take the ferry over to Orient Point, and go to Greenport or some other town on the North Fork of L.I. As I recall, there is a great place for pie out there. It's about 100 miles each way, including the ferry ride. Just not in February... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 That's exactly the route I took and I agree, February is not the time of the year to do it. I think I did it in September. Even though it was a warm September it gets mighty cold on an open brass car... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Joe, I pretty sure once its done the Mitchell will be capable of trips further afield.... say Maine for instance? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Maine is on my list. Actually, another friend who lives in really remote Maine (a place where there is no electricity) suggested a tour using the logging roads...I think that should be about as close to the original conditions as anyone could get. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, JV Puleo said: Maine is on my list. Actually, another friend who lives in really remote Maine (a place where there is no electricity) suggested a tour using the logging roads...I think that should be about as close to the original conditions as anyone could get. Absolutely Joe! I would suggest October - Greenville to the West Branch via the Golden Road, Then the Telos road up through to Chamberlain Lake. From Chamberlain Lake you can head up to Umbazooksus and Eagle Lake and hike into the Locomotives and Tramway. Head over to the St. John than north to Allagash Village. Hit the backroads south through the County or... cross the border and tour the eastern Quebec townships. Camp along the way. It would be an excellent adventure. Hope you don't mind the Mitchell getting a bit dusty. Here is a short video my cousin filmed during one of our hunting trips this past fall west of Portage Lake, Maine. Truck traffic all depends on where they are logging. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWP6za61yXE Edited January 12, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 That looks just about right...aside from the trucks, the conditions are probably as close as you can get anywhere to the opening years of the century... I spend much of today studying the helical gear section in Machinery's Handbook – something I should have done more carefully to begin with. I found the formula for tooth depth in helical gears and when I applied it I see that the depth for the teeth on this gear is .2697...say 2.7. As near as I can measure it, the teeth on the test gear are 2.6 so my "seat of the pants" guess that the tooth was about .010 shallow turns out to be just about right. I also dug out my B&S gear tooth caliper - something Ive never used and I'm not sure I know how to use it but as I have the time, and want everything to be perfect, I'll work with that tomorrow and see if I can't get a grip on how it works.. I also made these little bits for the thermostat housing...These will be the projections the water hose connects to... 1-1/8" OD x 1" ID brass tube... Threaded so that the thin nuts I made will go on...these will be threaded into the housing and everything soldered together. In any kind of real production environment you'd make all of this in one piece but, for 1 unit, this is easier and a lot more practical. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 I'd sent photos of the test gear to a friend with much more experience than I have and today we had a long conversation about what exactly to do in which he confirmed that there was nothing wrong with the test except that the teeth were not deep enough. I had thought to make another test but after that conversation I'm a lot more confident I can move on to the final product. So, I set the first one up in the mill... I've a few more tweaks to make to the setup and I will rig my coolant "drip feeder"... but I think it's time to go forward. I also made a turning fixture for the thermostat housing...a job that should have been finished this week were it not for our increasingly wretched postal system. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 Ed...there are two measurements I could use. The width of the tooth at it's tip - on the OD of the gear. The ones I have here are about .090 but I am guessing that the original is very slightly thinner, perhaps about .085. This is not a super precise measurement as it's difficult to get it perfect since the gear is tapered at that point but it may be useful as a checking point. Also, the height of the center piece above the face of the gear. I measured that before but have misplaced the slip of paper I wrote it down on. I won't need that until the gears are finished and I want to trim that to the finished length. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Joe......the car is back togeather and driving........it's a long weekend, and I am taking it on a local tour. I'll pull it apart on Monday afternoon and make some measurements. I have a bunch of updates to post on my thread as we have been working on the car extensively, but thought a bit of a break after a months long saga was a good idea. Several people actually complained about all of the White postings............. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 15, 2021 Author Share Posted January 15, 2021 That's no problem. Enjoy the car...it's too cold here for open cars even though it isn't terribly cold by NE standards. This is "back up" information - not critical to the job but nice to have for a double check. I'm feeling pretty confident we have this in hand now. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 15, 2021 Author Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) For White gear, I added a spacer between the running bushing and the cutter on the mill arbor. I'm a little concerned that the piece might hit the bushing since I have to go a tiny bit deeper...it's only about .020 but there is no way to take it apart and add this after the cutting has started. Realistically, I should be using a longer arbor but I don't have enough 1" spacers to use the long arbor I have. I also mounted my drip oiler – something I made a few years ago from a Chevrolet bypass oil filter. This machine has an internal coolant system but I have little need for coolant so I adopted this expedient - which is actually how it was done in 1917 when the White was built. It's now set up but I decided not to do it today as I wouldn't have time to finish. Tomorrow is supposed to be reasonably warm (for RI in the winter) and raining so I will probably come in and cut the gear. Saturday has the added attraction of being a day when I'm the only one in the building and there are no distractions. In the meantime, the stock came in for the thermostat housing so I cut two pieces about 1" long. These get drilled, bored and tapped... Because you can't take the piece out of the chuck and put it back perfectly I had to do these one at the time. The little tubes and nuts I'd made previously screw into them. And then they go back in the lathe to have the thickness reduced to 7/8". By doing it this way, the face of the housing half is absolutely perpendicular to the hole in the center. Next, I'll solder the three pieces together both for strength and to make certain the threaded attachments are water tight. There is more machining to do but after they are soldered they will effectively be one piece. Edited January 15, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) I had the same reaction. About 90% of the discussion on this forum doesn't interest me but I can't imagine complaining about it...and the fact is I read a lot about cars I'd never want to own simply because its always good to know more. Edited January 17, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) If I posted who complained to me, you would be stunned.(Well known here.) It rolled off my back and I didn’t let it bother me. There was one loud complaint and there or four other comments. Some people have no joy in their life.......others just like to pull people down. Doesn’t matter. In the end, I like the car.........and still enjoy it. Interestingly, I have as much fun servicing it as driving it. After forty years of fixing things........there are very few automobiles that I still enjoy working on all the time.The White has been nothing but a joy. To be honest, I can live without spinning wrenches on V-16 Cadillacs.............other than that, most of the big iron is still enjoyable for me. AJ’s Stearns Knight has been a blast. It’s just so upside down everything seems new. I expect a thread on that will start soon......... Edited January 16, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 My favorite threads that I always look forward too: Joe's 1910 Mitchell project Ed's saga of the Great White What are you working on right now? I always learn something and its very entertaining. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 There's the first two teeth... I'm not a relaxed person under any circumstances and to me, this is very intense work...they look good. I'm worried that they may now be a few thousandths too deep but I tend to find things to worry about. The fact is, the worst that could cause is a tiny amount of additional backlash which won't effect their operation at all...but I may be exaggerating that...there is just as good a chance they are spot on. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Joe, I am sure it will be fine. I was just reading an article from 1907 on helical gears - they mentioned the same thing you did that its a trial and error process in regards to depth. If you were making a matched set from scratch I am sure it would be a lot easier that what you are doing - trying to machine a gear to match an original gear with no idea what they used for tolerances. A tiny bit of backlash is a good outcome for such a difficult task that most of us would never, ever consider attempting. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 Thanks Terry. That's encouraging. I purposely made this gear out of Stressproof - a steel that is commonly used for gears but is probably a little softer than the original - which was probably surface hardened. When you don't know what the hardness is, it's dangerous to make the gear harder, taking the risk that it will cause wear on the other gears. Besides, this gear is so under stressed for its size that I think it would take 100 years of constant running to wear it measurably - and maybe not even then since it runs in a constant oil bath. As it is, it's 5:00 PM and I've only cut 10 of the 20 teeth. I wanted to finish this today but it simply isn't worth it to push the envelope. So far it looks really good but only one slip up and it's ruined so it's far better to come back to it Monday. I'd do it tomorrow but I've committed myself to helping my cousin tear down what's left of the old boat house and we are going to get very few nice days from now to the Spring. They are supposed to have backlash too...and we're talking thousandths of an inch here - at most it may be .010 over the minimum depth and that is probably prudent in any case. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/15/2021 at 6:00 AM, edinmass said: Joe......the car is back togeather and driving........it's a long weekend, and I am taking it on a local tour. I'll pull it apart on Monday afternoon and make some measurements. I have a bunch of updates to post on my thread as we have been working on the car extensively, but thought a bit of a break after a months long saga was a good idea. Several people actually complained about all of the White postings............. I guess you can't please everyone, but in my opinion the saga of Great White is one of the best old car story's I have ever seen. Joe's Mitchell thread is right up there as well. Five stars !! Greg 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 I finished the first gear... I am certain this will work but I suspect the teeth might be just a few thousandths too deep...that won't have any effect on their function but I'll try to make the next one just a bit finer... And because I had an hour left (and didn't want to start the other gear) I faced off the two halves of the thermostat housing and tried them on the turning fixture. I have to solder them and then I'll turn the outside diameters to 2-1/4" and thread them. The idea here is to get both diameters and the thread identical on both pieces. The actual size (within limits) isn't critical but their matching is. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 It looks as if the "Great White" water pump adventure is heating up... I finished the second gear this morning. While I believe both will be fine, the second one is just a tiny bit better. The paper they are sitting on is my record of each cut... 6 cuts for each tooth and I cross off each one as I do it. It probably isn't necessary but when I get distracted, as happened twice today, it's easy to forget just where you are on the job. I have to clean the mill up and re set it for cutting the woodruff key slots ... but that will come tomorrow, In the meantime I soldered the pieces of the thermostat housing together. These came out fine although it would have been a neater job if I'd used less solder... And it visiting the office to post this, I see that the impellers arrived so I now have everything I need to finish this and bite my nails while I wait to see if everything fits! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 I opened the box...those impeller castings are excellent! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Just now, JV Puleo said: I opened the box...those impeller castings are excellent! Glad to hear it! Work with top notch people, get top notch results! 👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Photos of the impellers........... 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 21, 2021 Share Posted January 21, 2021 Joe......your tires are getting a ride North on Monday. Cost me $350 to ship six tires from Tennessee to Florida. I’m gonna get them delivered to my front porch in Massachusetts. I’ll get AJ to bring them to you in the next month or two. Two are brand new never been on the road, two or like néw, and two have wear. They should be good to get you to go. At the price of tires today you can’t go wrong with a set of take offs. They are 36 x 4:50 and fit a 27 inch rim. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 Thanks very much Ed...I'm not going to the UK until the travel restrictions are lifted so I'll be here whenever it's convenient for AJ. The Mitchell will be heavily "over tired" which is fine with me...I doubt it weighs half - or maybe even a third as much as the White or any of the other big cars that used that size tire. jp 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 21, 2021 Author Share Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) I'm working on brass and bronze today and tomorrow since I'm anxious to machine the new impellers. But, first I went a bit further with the thermostat housing, mounting it on the fixture I'd made a few days ago. Turning the OD down to 2-1/4" And threading it. I'm using 16 TPI - a fine thread for such a large diameter but I want the thread to be relatively shallow. Here's the two pieces off the fixture. The threads are, of necessity, identical. Now I will bore the inside out to 1-3/4". Edited January 22, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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