AURktman Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 On 1/20/2021 at 7:25 PM, edinmass said: Photos of the impellers........... I am quite impressed with the level of detail the caster was able to achieve. You can clearly see the 3D printing lines from the pattern. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 1 hour ago, AURktman said: I am quite impressed with the level of detail the caster was able to achieve. You can clearly see the 3D printing lines from the pattern. Agreed, in the past, this has been an issue on parts that need chrome. In this application it's not an issue. The entire casting is really great, and with the adjustment for the shrinkage on the entire part a perfect part is produced. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 Angled surfaces on 3D prints may show stair steps for each of the .005" thick layers. The 3D print can be sanded before casting when it makes a difference. Investment casting in plaster molds is very good at replicating even the finest details in the pattern, though I don't think you can get to a mirror finish on a raw casting. A good chrome shop can polish a casting before plating and during the process to make it shine. While Joe will be machining some of the surfaces on the impeller, he won't be taking anything off the top edges of the vanes. When someone looks at the impeller 50-100 years from now, they may wonder how those little steps got into a 1917 water pump impeller. I resisted the temptation to include my initials and a date in the patterns. Ed can engrave his initials when the impeller gets to his shop. I anxiously await Joe's photos of the machining... Gas filler as cast in silicon bronze from 3D printed pattern. Gas filler after polishing and plating. [Yes, yes, the Phillips head screws have got to go!] 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AURktman Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 41 minutes ago, Gary_Ash said: Angled surfaces on 3D prints may show stair steps for each of the .005" thick layers. The 3D print can be sanded before casting when it makes a difference. Investment casting in plaster molds is very good at replicating even the finest details in the pattern, though I don't think you can get to a mirror finish on a raw casting. A good chrome shop can polish a casting before plating and during the process to make it shine. While Joe will be machining some of the surfaces on the impeller, he won't be taking anything off the top edges of the vanes. When someone looks at the impeller 50-100 years from now, they may wonder how those little steps got into a 1917 water pump impeller. I resisted the temptation to include my initials and a date in the patterns. Ed can engrave his initials when the impeller gets to his shop. I anxiously await Joe's photos of the machining... The chromed gas filler is beautiful! One thing that will help the surface finish on the printed parts is chemical smoothing. It depends on the material being used, but ABS can be smoothed with acetone to make the surface much smoother. A mix of sanding and acetone will work wonders. But you have to be careful with it, since its a solvent for ABS, it can go from smooth to sticky blob quite quickly. As for PLA, you can use dichloromethane to smooth, but be careful with that as well. Shamelessly stolen pic from the interwebs: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) The castings look great! painting and sanding and repeat can eliminate a lot of it. On many of the 3D printed patterns I have used a a thin coat of bondo smeared and worked in and then pretty much sanded off. Below are the core box halves, removable core print and pattern for a oil pump drive housing. In the past I have tried chemical smoothing but I found (for me at least) it was difficult to control. Again, if its not going to be seen or effect its operation than those little layer lines are not a problem. Edited January 22, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 (edited) So as not to disappoint anyone, I kept on with my brass & bronze projects today. I bored out the thermostat housings... because there are two, you can see the "before & after" although immediately after this I bored the second one. The thermostat drops into one...there will be a threaded sleeve that holds the two pieces together but that has to wait until I put the big chuck on the machine. With that done, I put the first impeller in the 4-jaw chuck and faced it off. This surface gets reduced more but I just wanted it flat for the moment. Then it was drilled to 47/64. This alloy has a poor machinability rating - something we didn't think of beforehand. It was a bear to drill because I should be using drills with a tip ground for the purpose - which I don't have and am not sure how to grind. In any case, it did work. Thankfully, it reamed very well. Then I mounted the impeller on an expanding mandrel. By doing it this way the hole in the center is the "guide" everything else relates to. That way the machined surfaces will be either parallel or perpendicular to the shaft. The difficulty here is that the smaller the mandrel is, the less surface area it has to grip. It took me a little time to find a tool that would cut smoothly and to lessen the stress on the mandrel I took fairly light cuts. It is suggested that you use carbide but I rarely do - at least in part because carbide requires speeds that my antique machines were not designed for. I know have to turn the OD, trim the boss in the center so that the overall depth is correct and put in the set screws...perhaps tomorrow because I'd like to see them done and it looks as if we are getting close to finishing this job. Edited January 22, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 On 1/21/2021 at 5:29 PM, JV Puleo said: Thanks very much Ed...I'm not going to the UK until the travel restrictions are lifted so I'll be here whenever it's convenient for AJ. The Mitchell will be heavily "over tired" which is fine with me...I doubt it weighs half - or maybe even a third as much as the White or any of the other big cars that used that size tire. jp I'm happy to bring the over to you Joe. Good thing I was following along in this thread or you might not have seen them for a while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 23, 2021 Share Posted January 23, 2021 Joe, I know what you mean about drilling brass and some bronze alloys with the drill bit catching. Fortunately I had a friend who was a retired tool & die maker who showed me how to flatten the cutting edge just a bit so you have a little bit of zero rake before I destroyed too many bits and parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 17 hours ago, alsancle said: I'm happy to bring the over to you Joe. Good thing I was following along in this thread or you might not have seen them for a while. Well, since I am a LONG way from putting tires on the wheels, it's really an "at your convenience" issue. I had the same non-skids on my 1910 REO and really like them - although I ruined two of them by badly miss-aligning the front end. I have a double spare carrier for the back of the chassis so these should really be the icing on the cake to make the car look right. My goal is to make it look like a well maintained, but by no means perfect old car – looking like a well-preserved car that was painted in the 60's. With these tires, the only parts that are still missing are the radiator shell (which a friend has offered to make) and a good radiator that I expect I'll make myself. There is a body to build as well so it will still be years before it's a workable car. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 19 minutes ago, Terry Harper said: Joe, I know what you mean about drilling brass and some bronze alloys with the drill bit catching. Fortunately I had a friend who was a retired tool & die maker who showed me how to flatten the cutting edge just a bit so you have a little bit of zero rake before I destroyed too many bits and parts. I do have a drill sharpener that goes up to 3/4" but I've yet to really master it. I keep thinking I'll put aside a couple of days to just resharpen all the dull drills I have...as it is, they are in a box waiting and will probably be waiting a long time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 23, 2021 Author Share Posted January 23, 2021 (edited) I went on with the impellers today. To trim them to length I mounted one on the expanding arbor with a large aluminum disc behind it to bear against the flat surface. This is to allow me to remove it from the arbor to measure the length and replace it without changing anything. The lathe compound was then arranged to move in towards the face of the impeller and a stop set on the lathe bed. I will use the compound to get the right depth. Then, I will only have to take this impeller off and replace it with the second one and move the saddle up to the stop to replicate the same depth. I trimmed it reasonably close and then measured it. The finished measurement is supposed to be 1.525 and I came out .010 over. I put it back on the arbor and took .010 more off. Then it was only a matter of doing the second impeller for them to both be identical - or within .002 which, for a pump impeller is inconsequential. Then they were pressed on to an arbor and the OD turned...the measurement is 3.485. I had, accidentally used the one casting that had a small flaw but, as Gary thought, that was machined away. All that remains is to put the holes in for the set screws. I'd have done that to but one of my two local old car friends showed up to make something and he needed the drill press. This is one of, if not the first thing I've actually made using a professional drawing (provided by Gary) and I can see why most machinists insist on them! Edited January 23, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Joe, they look great! Kind of makes me wish I had a vibratory polisher to run those parts through with some walnut shells before I sent them to you. Or, is that lipstick on the pig? Ed may still want to give them a good wash and scrubbing in hot water with some Oakite or other strong cleaner to get rid of the plaster residual from the investment casting process. The impeller is going in the cooling system, it doesn't have to be beautiful. Now we just have to see how they fit in the water pump. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) It’s fantastic to see this all come together.........so many people helping out. Gary.......I will vapor hone the impeller before installing it. I’m looking forward to assembling the water pump one last time in my lifetime. I have had it apart half a dozen times already..........no complaints. I did the pump on my 36 Pierce back in 1990.......it’s still perfect. Do it once the right way, and it’s done forever. If the White pump lasts thirty years, I will be 86 years old at the next service. Edited January 25, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 Yes...it is lipstick on the pig ... and I had the same thought although they really are at least as good (and much better than most) looking an any similar part I've worked on. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) If it needs service in 30 years, I'll be 99 and maybe not able to help! It is heartening to see what clever people can accomplish when they pool their talents. Edited January 24, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: If it needs service in 30 years, I'll be 99 and maybe not able to help! It will still be under warranty correct? Please enclose the unlimited lifetime warranty that covers both parts and labor when shipping it back to me. 👴 Edited January 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 Sure...but it will only be good for my life and I expect the White to survive me by a long time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, JV Puleo said: Then it was only a matter of doing the second impeller for them to both be identical - or within .002 which, for a pump impeller is inconsequential. Then they were pressed on to an arbor and the OD turned...the measurement is 3.485. I had, accidentally used the one casting that had a small flaw but, as Gary thought, that was machined away. Excellent Joe! I love the use of the backer plate. As I teach my students - there is no such thing as the perfect part but a perfect drawing (which must include tolerances) allows us to make imperfect parts that work perfectly. Which is why the last few assignments have involved recognizing and maintaining design intent (function/fit) and calculating tolerances using the Machinery's Handbook for their steam engine project and incorporating them into their shop drawings. All fun stuff! Edited January 24, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) Automotive machining is rather interesting, it’s not done to very tight or critical tolerances compared to many things. That said, today the sloppiness of what most automotive machine shops are producing is stunning. Also lack of cleanliness is astounding. Most shops can’t even keep things square. The good news is the 40’s to the 70’s machine shop equipment is selling for scrap prices......along with the tooling. It’s justifiable to buy a good piece of equipment for only occasional use if you have the room. We have bought several machines over the years just for the tooling that came with it......and then sold off the machine afterwards. We are quickly running out of shops that do good work.......... Edited January 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 24, 2021 Author Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) It's much the same with manual machine tools. I think the mill is the only one I paid more than scrap price for and several of them were given to me just to get them moved. This is largely the result of the attendant skills needed to run them not being taught any more. "Educators" seldom seem to have an real world experience and are always seduced by "new technology".* This isn't inherently bad but in moving in this direction it's presumed that the "hands on" aspect of the job is unimportant - or best left to the shop floor peons. A little exposure to traditional methods and the challenges of actually making something would rapidly show that there is a huge difference between knowing how something is done and knowing how to do it... *(In the interest of full disclosure, my mother, sister and several of by closest friends are or were teachers covering elementary school to college so my observations are based on personal experience rather than being an anti-modern education rant.) Edited January 25, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 So true Joe! Nothing replaces hands-on. The University of Maine has worked hard to address this with their Engineering Technology programs which do just that. For instance the Mechanical Engineering Technology students actually spend a lot of time in the machine shop during their first year working with manual machines. They also required to complete capstone projects their senior year. These have ranged from designing and fabricating a pill crusher for a hospital to rebuilding a compound air compressor for a steam locomotive to completing the restoration of a 19 ton Steam Lombard log hauler back to operating condition. https://umaine.edu/met/capstone-projects/2014-lombard-steam-log-hauler-restoration/ https://umaine.edu/met/team-5-steam-pump/ I think one of the issues with modern machine technology is the loss of the human touch and skilled craftsmanship and that last 1% or 2% of finishing that makes the difference. We have seen a number of examples of this in the firearms industry. CNC is great but it can't hold perfect tolerance - no machine can. Nothing beats hand fitting and lapping and adjusting parts so they work correctly. The drive for cheap production seems to have minimized that aspect and thus in the past few years we have encountered a number of examples of firearms (and other products) that have suffered because of it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 I also see the situation as being the result of the drive for ever lower production costs. And overall operating costs. The Company I worked for has a good sized fleet of Costal Ferry ships. everything from small 25 or so car capacity vessels, right on up to 350 car capacity ships . Close to 40 ships in all , and ranging in age from 40 years old all the way up to brand new. When I first started 35 years ago the company repaired everything. If parts were no longer available we just made new ones in house. The Company had a comprehensive machine shop, and there were local foundry's that could produce any needed replacement castings. And things continued in this way right on up to about the year 2000 or so. But eventually the Company started to examine every serious problem from the point of view of what was cheaper ? Repair equipment or replace with a brand new { often offshore } machine. Major repairs on existing machines became less common , and far more outright replacement took place. Everything from 50 HP air compressors to main propulsion engines the size of a locomotive . { not a locomotive engine , the entire locomotive } This is the new way of operating. Greg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 Joe, You need to come up sometime when we have an event. We can put you to work in our machine shop. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) It won’t be long before a talented young guy can set up a small machine shop in a two car garage for very little initial investment, and make a great living from home without insane overhead. Using a five axis machine to do 99 percent of what the antique car hobby needs is beyond any economic or time efficient use. Never mind the cost of the machine, or programming time. When I get the White water pump finished, I will post a story about an interesting issue that has come to light recently. Edited January 24, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted January 24, 2021 Share Posted January 24, 2021 (edited) I would tend to agree Ed, but like many things these day a lot is going to depend on where you live. A good friend decided to retire 5 years early from his high pressure job as shop foreman in a very busy , large ,aircraft machine shop . And start his own one man operation. But he had to rent space . Property is so expensive around here that he and his wife always lived in a town house. Very skilled guy, but it was feast or famine . A mix of aircraft , general commercial machine shop work and quite a bit of hobby car and vintage motorcycle work. In an area where a very basic starter house is $1,000,000 there is essentially no opportunity for home based businesses. He is now retired for 4 years and lives in a small house , in a small town in Alberta. No machine tools, but his house cost about the same as a parking spot in this area. Greg Edited January 24, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 25, 2021 Author Share Posted January 25, 2021 I had a lot on this morning but still managed to get into the shop and finish the impellers. I decided to follow Terry's advice and put the set screws at 90-degrees rather than 180-degrees. It was set up in the drill press using a collet block and expanding arbor to hold the impeller. The beauty of this is that there is only one setup since you only have to turn the block to get the next hole and you only need to change impellers to do the next one. The last step was to lap the bores, both to get rid of the burrs left by the threading and to enlarge the hole about .0005. This will allow the impeller to slip on to the shaft making it much easier to adjust its location. The reamed hole, by itself, would be tight and require that the impeller be pried back and forth...not a good idea when handling the original (and I'm guessing fragile) original pump housing. For this I use a barrel lap and 120 grit grinding paste. This is a little time consuming and you have to do it entirely by feel rather than measurement but the results are always satisfying. I fit just about all bushings and shafts this way. And the proper slip fit on a piece of the ground stock. That finishes the impellers. Tomorrow I'll work on the shafts themselves. They need slots cut for the Woodruff keys and flats cut to seat the set screws. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 25, 2021 Share Posted January 25, 2021 Most excellent Joe! Its wonderful to see the Great White water pump project come to a successful close. Its been a privilege to watch this project progress and move forward as a true collaborative effort involving folks with unique skill sets and experience. It echos the age of craftsmanship in which Ed's fabulous White left the factory. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Take a look at this photo......there isn’t a tool in it that most likely isn’t fifty years old..........that’s what I like about talented craftsman...........they don’t need Snap-On shiny wrenches or anything close......they use existing things around the shop, and get the job done right with the tools at hand. Slowly thinking through the task at hand......figuring out solutions to problems that most people have no idea that pop up......and getting the job done. Impressive! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Heck, I bet Joe’s pipe is damn near fifty years old too!😂 His lighter is newer but I like the caption printed on it. It’s in one of the pictures in this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 Actually, Mike McCartney gave me that lighter. I've used up all the gas but I like it so much I keep it on the bench! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, edinmass said: Take a look at this photo......there isn’t a tool in it that most likely isn’t fifty years old..........that’s what I like about talented craftsman...........they don’t need Snap-On shiny wrenches or anything close......they use existing things around the shop, and get the job done right with the tools at hand. Slowly thinking through the task at hand......figuring out solutions to problems that most people have no idea that pop up......and getting the job done. Impressive! But Ed, I bought my Snap-On torque wrench just about 50 years ago...3/8 drive, just right for doing RR work because there are very few large bolts in a SG or PI. I wore out a Snap-on 1/2 in ratchet which I'd return (since it is one of those lifetime warranty things) but I don't know how to find a local Snap-On Rep. Edited January 26, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: Actually, Mike McCartney gave me that lighter. I've used up all the gas but I like it so much I keep it on the bench! You must have packed it in your suitcase for the trip back over because they would never let you on a plane with one in your pocket these days! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 5 hours ago, JV Puleo said: But Ed, I bought my Snap-On torque wrench just about 50 years ago...3/8 drive, just right for doing RR work because there are very few large bolts in a SG or PI. I wore out a Snap-on 1/2 in ratchet which I'd return (since it is one of those lifetime warranty things) but I don't know how to find a local Snap-On Rep. Send me a few photos of the 1/2 inch ratchet, I’ll get a replacement kit for you........to rebuild it. Phil is a retired 40 year Snap On guy.......corporate and retailer. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 8 hours ago, chistech said: . . . . that lighter. I've used up all the gas . . . . Can't you refill it? If not, it must have been given to you by some cheapskate! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 Unfortunately, they are the non-refill type which is what we have here too. That's why I like the refillable ones I get at Sainsbury's but now it looks as if I'll have to wait until the covid thing has passed before I can get any. Ed...the Snap-On 1/2" ratchet driver... And, I ran into a small snag today on the water pump. My plan to put the key seats in won't work - I can't get the shaft close enough to the cutter when the mill is set up as a horizontal and making the seat parallel to the taper is a trick if doing it with the vertical head. I mulled over this much of the day while I cleaned up the mill and put the dividing head away (having to find a place to put it...it isn't something I want just sitting on the floor). I finally thought of this B&S vise that came with a machine I owned years ago. I haven't used it in a long time because of the horrid mess some gorilla made of it although it does clamp tight. Unfortunately, the register marks for alignment have also been defaced so setting it up accurately is a time consuming job but this will allow me to use the key cutter in the vertical head. I'll plug away at it tomorrow. But, this has also been one of those days when just about everything that could go wrong did...my pipes are frozen at home or the submersible pump in the well has failed so I may have to give that some attention tomorrow morning...it's snowing and I've a family crisis that demands some attention. We'll have to see what happens. I thought these were supposed to be my "golden years". I'm busier than I've ever been! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 Joe......family and house hold issues first..........no hurry. The tires arrived in Western Mass today, so AJ will pick them up next time he goes to Springfield. AJ- hurry up and get Joe’s tires! 🤪 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 26, 2021 Share Posted January 26, 2021 I put in for a ratchet rebuild kit.......will let you know when it arrives. 👍 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 26, 2021 Author Share Posted January 26, 2021 Do those ratchets have a particular problem of is it just I used it so long it wore out? I especially liked the Snap-On because it seemed to have a small ratcheting device so that you did not have to move the handle much in order to move the socket...something that makes working in tight places so much easier. I have another - that I just inherited - but it's a longer handle and a swivel head. That one seems fine but I'm guessing my late cousin, who owned it, didn't use it much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 27, 2021 Author Share Posted January 27, 2021 Well...the good news is that the pipes weren't frozen and the pump is working. In my haste this morning I forgot one of the sets of shut-offs I included in the new plumbing...I'm feeling a little dumb but very relieved for that! So, if it doesn't snow too much tonight (and it doesn't look like it will) I'll be back in the shop tomorrow. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Ratchet repair kit is on the way...........nice to have connections! My trusty helper Phil “With the hands like George The Animal Steel” has forty years in with Snap On.......he came through fast! 👍 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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