1927 moon roadster

[JustDave]

im restoring a 27 moon roadster,in calif ash lumber is hard to come by,my buddy in illinois said he would bring some out to me but you cant bring it in to another state because of some beetle infestation,is there another wood i can use instear of ash with same integrity,thanks dave

[lump]

I thought that any kiln-dried lumber is safe to ship, including ash? And I would think that you would certainly want wood which has been kiln dried, so it won't try to warp inside your car body? 

[keiser31]

Go here....http://www.macraesbluebook.com/search/product_company_list.cfm?prod_code=4498350&region=California-CA

or type in "kiln dried California Ash" on Google and find more.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Friartuck]

Stick with Ash. I too wouldn't think that kiln dried to be an issue. And if shipping is a concern, consider Greyhound Package Express for non-time critical bulk items up to 82 inches long. If it fits into the luggage compartment of a bus, they'll take it. I think Fastenal also offers their trucks for bulk items. And you don't have to box it, just clear packing tape and maybe some cardboard around the ends.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Friartuck (see edit history)

[zipdang]

 

4 hours ago, lump said:

I thought that any kiln-dried lumber is safe to ship, including ash? And I would think that you would certainly want wood which has been kiln dried, so it won't try to warp inside your car body? 

 

Those little buggers have been known to survive the kiln, milling, and final finishing. Folks couldn't figure out where the sawdust was coming from under their furniture only to find out the  ash borer had survived the manufacturing process and were still active! Ugh. Really decimated the ash trees here in Ohio.

[wayne sheldon]

Where about in Califunny are you? I am in Grass Valley, and it just so happens that I think there is an exotic wood dealer not far from me. It has been a couple years since I needed anything special, and haven't spoken to them in some time. But they moved and set up here because they like our area. They are (or were) connected to a family business somewhere in Southern Califunny. I could make a phone call and find out some current information?

 

My understanding is that ash is the best compromise for automobile bodies. Some type of furniture mahogany is a good other choice (I did use some on a project a few years ago). Whatever you use, it needs to have a fairly tight (hence no soft woods like pine or fir) and straight grain in the wood. All types of oak tend to be very hard, and difficult to work with. Oak is also too brittle for some applications. That is why oak should NOT be used for wheel spokes. Second growth hickory is best for wheels due to its resilience. I have been told that some varieties of oak are susceptible to rotting away inside a body if there is enough humidity in the area. Sealing the wood really well may help prevent that kind of damage. Or not. IF the sealing is not nearly 100 percent everywhere including inside all joints, moisture may be able to find a way in, and then cannot get out actually causing wood to rot faster in limited areas. I sometimes will seal wood on the upper side of all parts of the structure so to repel condensation or rain if the car gets caught out in it. The underside of all wood, I often leave unpainted, and not sealed at all. That way. if the wood gets a little wet (splashing a puddle for example, or a hose washing the car). Water splashed up, will tend to drip much of it off. What remains has an opportunity to dry out naturally in a few days.

Poplar is sometimes recommended for its grain, and easy working qualities, however, it may be a bit too soft, and I have been told that it may not last a long time. A careful mix of oak and poplar has been used in car body restoration. 

 

All that, and if you really study some original cars? You should discover that they originally used a wide range of woods in building cars of the '10s and '20s. According to an exotic woods expert I dealt with several years ago, the modern equivalent closest to the original (but broken) running board from the 1925 Studebaker I was restoring at that time, was in fact a clean straight grain Douglas Fir. Many car bodies and especially commercial and truck bodies were in fact built using a lot of soft woods. These vehicles were an investment. Mostly, they had a short life expectancy. They wanted a good serviceable body that would do a job for as long as the engine and chassis could be kept running.Saving a few dollars on the material and labor for the body made sense when they expected the chassis to be dead in seven years. It was a tough road in those days.

Today, we do a nice restoration on a car we like? We hope it will still be around a hundred years after we are gone! (I know I do)

 

I would love to see pictures of your Moon Roadster. Is this the same Moon Roadster discussed on a previous tread about a year or two ago?

I love so many of these '20s orphans. Like the Paige my dad had, and I researched, they were often well built, well designed, and sometimes quite stylish for their era.

Good luck and have fun!

[JustDave]

yes this is the same moon roadster,still in its sad state,but little by little it will come together,also ive heard the bore beetle can live threw the kiln process thats why they are so strict abolt crossing state lines with ash lumber,i will find it and get it together,i think ill use the ash on the floors and firewall and the rest ill use pine as a template,then recreate in ash,  tyhanks dave

[jan arnett (2)]

I have used popular for bodies for fifty years and never had a problem.  It is straight grained, holds a screws, glues well and is stable.  I use dense building foam insulation for templates.  I have a complete 1923 moon wood body in my basement if you need templates.  Mine is a touring but I will bet the front half is the same as a roadster.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Do what Ford did. Have your buddy build you a crate out of the wood you need. And then put some BS part in it and ship it to you. And then what you do with the crate is up to you.

[Akstraw]

I have been using ash in restoring a 1922 Marmon touring car.  Most all references ash as the variety of choice for this application.  My source is West Penn Hardwoods in Conover, NC.  They ship lumber to and from all over the world.  I suggest giving them a call; they may have the necessary permit to ship to CA.

 

White Oak compares very well to ash in material properties, and would be a good alternative from a structural standpoint.  My experience is that the two also are very similar to machine.   The significant difference between Oak and Ash is the high acid content of the oak, which will result in discoloration around metal fasteners.  This may not be an issue if the woodwork is ultimately painted or hidden from view.

[Rusty_OToole]

The larger question is how do you kill the borers without harming the wood? You wouldn't want to use wood that might contain borers anyway.

[JustDave]

im not much of a wood worker,i started out working as a tool and die maker,after 2 years in frt of a mill and lathe all day it drove me crazy,i went into the automotive repair industry first as a painter then as a metal man, so as you can tell my woodworking is very limited,the ash lumber as i understand has this boring beetle that there trying to get stopped thats why its a stickler shipping or bringing it into calif,i heard of a man who built a table out of kiln dried ash and he said when it was finished he would pieces of like sawdust around the table,he later had it fumigated and it stopped,im just trying to gert as much info as possible before i make a big mistake,im cleaning and repairing the sheetmetal at this time hoping to get my ducks in a row,     dave

[Mark Gregory]

They are now trying to kill the Ash Borer with this idea . Getting wasps to sting the insect .

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/wasps-fight-emerald-ash-borer-beetles-1.4035333

Edited March 31, 2017 by Mark Gregory (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:26 PM, Rusty_OToole said:

The larger question is how do you kill the borers without harming the wood? You wouldn't want to use wood that might contain borers anyway.

 

The ash borer is in the outer layer just behind the bark.  After the bark is off and the log is sawn up there is no ash borer.  Especially if the wood goes through a warm air kiln.

[Akstraw]

When I started my project, I bought a few books that I found helpful.  "Automotive Woodworking" by Roland Johnson is a fairly recent text that gives a good discussion on wood selection, tools, techniques, etc. I would recommend this book.  "Antique Auto Body Wood Work for the Restorer" is a 1969 text that is actually a reprint of a 1914 text.  It gives insight into how they actually did it back in the day, but has limited practical value for restorer today.   Another book I found interesting all around is "The Principles of Automobile Body Design", a 1922 text by Kingston Forbes.  Not a great woodworking reference, but an interesting book all around.  You can read it for free on a number of web sites, or buy a reprint.  Just be sure if you buy a reprint, to be sure the one you are ordering contains all the illustrations.  There are some out there that include only the text, not the drawings.

 

i think you are doing the right thing to research the wood.  Perhaps your forestry office, furniture manufacturers or lumber trade association, or department of agriculture could be of help on the borer issue.  I would take the stories of disintegrating furniture with a grain of salt.  Good luck!

 

[Ivan Saxton]

Quote

 

I understand that there have been low viscosity epoxy type products which can overcome some problems of woodwork damaged by insects or fungus.  The thinner is acetone which you should be able to buy readily from a paint shop.  Now when timber is first sawn green, it carries a lot of water.  The timber we mostly use for any structural or decorative purpose is the zylem which is developed in annual rings. That which developes each growing season probably has more flow rate capacity to convey water from the soil through the roots to the leaves where it is needed for photosynthesis, and growth of the tree.   OK, your wood is a compound pipe of myriads of microscopic channels, which no longer have much water in them from the drying/seasoning, but are still channels.  Now acetone is volatile and evaporates readily; and it has low surface tension and will soak into your timber readily.; displacing the air which your borers need for their respiration through their surface.   You could experiment:  If you absorb acetone into a piece of wood contaminated with borers and wrap it airtight in plastic tube off a roll,  you may or may not see panic evacuation, but it does not matter because they will not survive.   It is worth checking whether acetone plasticises the wood as you do with steam from boiling water when you steam-bend your own hood bows.     Your timbers are all botanically different from what we have in Australia.  The eco-Nazis here have mostly prohibited the milling of the best coachwood species; whereas if they were higher primates they might promote plantation production of these in mixed stands.