Buying my first 1963 Buick Riviera- Need help

[Guest aromo]

So I've always appreciated the look of the 63-65 Rivieras.  I have a chance to purchase one this weekend.  The year is 1963.  Painted white, stock height, stock nailhead engine, matching plates California car.  Asking price is $7500 obo.  Car is a good solid daily driver.

Am I getting a good deal at $7500 or less? Need some help on this one.

[poci1957]

Sounds like it but some pictures would help us on that

[DAVES89]

You might want to scroll down this page to the Riviera forum. They have some dedicated 63-65 owners there that could give you some help

[Guest aromo]

Thank you poci1957 and DAVES89.

[poci1957]

Doesn't look like any glaring problems other than the velour seats--looks like incorrect material in the original pattern.  Does it drive OK and everything work, more or less?  How about the body & paint, does it appear the car was originally white and no wavy panels?  Did you look at floors and inside trunk for rust?  Not a steal but if it is solid and not messed with too much you are probably OK IMO, others will also chime in, good luck, Todd C 

[Guest aromo]

This is what the add said-  I have not seeing the car.  Suppose to look at it Saturday.

 

1963 Buick Rivera, Very Original California Rust Free Car, In Very Good Original Condition. The Engine, Transmission and Rear End Are In Great Shape. The Brakes Have Just Been Done As Well As The Radiator, Engine Does Not Smoke And Runs Very Well. The Exhaust System Is Fairly New and In Good Condition. All Original Style Interior In Good Condition. Needs Headliner And The Radio Is Missing. The Original Color Was Gold And The Car Has An Older White Repaint In Fair Condition. The Car Has Had Body Damage And Repaired. All Power Windows Work, Power Steering Works, Matching Radial Tires In Very Good Condition. Car Is Currently Registered for 2017, And I Have The Original California Black Plates That Came On The Car. I have Additional Pictures Of The Car

[John_S_in_Penna]

Those Rivieras had great styling, 

as your pictures show.  I especially like

the chiseled side view.

 

Whether you buy this example or not,

you have certainly made a good choice

for a model of car!  There is plenty of 

support for the 1963-65 Rivieras in the

Riviera Owners' Association.

[poci1957]

Well, bonus points to the seller for an apparently honest description so far.  IMO the big up side is if it is rust free as it looks, the down side is most cars color changed to white are done so to hide poor bodywork and/or to cheap out on paint.  That and the body damage call for a careful inspection in person, definitely look for damage behind fenders and quarters.  Wait to hear more from our many Buick guys here, Todd C

[Guest aromo]

So what would be a fair offer to begin with the seller?  He's asking $7500.

[Frantz]

NADA Classic Car Values 63 Riv

I think $7500 would be a good place to start if you like the car. I personally always hate when someone tries to low ball me when I've set a price that is already generous. 

[John_S_in_Penna]

The upholstery done in incorrect fabric

detracts from whatever price-guide value it might have.

But if it doesn't bother you, just take that into account

and look at all its good aspects.

 

Someday you may want to have those seats redone,

and that might be a $5000 cost.

Edited August 12, 2016 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

Hagerty, the antique-car insurance company,

as an internet-based price guide too:

 

https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuationtools/search/auto/Buick/Riviera/Base/1963

 

Whatever value you see, remember to deduct appropriately for the seats.

[padgett]

ps from the hose on the passenger side & cockpit vents this was an air car but is not mentioned. Figure $1k to flush, replace the compressor, dryer, etc. and recharge.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Those '63 -'65 Rivieras look pretty good in white - a color that doesn't work on every car, but really fits others.  It seems to work well here.  I know it is sometimes used to cover up questionable bodywork, but a lot of folks might prefer something other than that tan/gold that was so popular at the time - especially on GM cars it seems.  Could have been a prior owner's preference.  I might prefer an original color but in some cases, if one does not care for the original color, a factory correct alternative might be fine - white seems popular on these, and it might cancel out the color change if one is that worried about resale.

 

Seats almost look like seatcovers on there.  Regardless, the car is likely worth the investment in a nice original upholstery job, not sure if a "kit" is available for one of these like a Chevy or Ford of that era.

 

FWIW if the car is a driver or close it seems that would be a pretty good price up here in the Northeast.  Of course here, projects, if local are usually rusted. All things being equal, if it is truly a sound body, the paint and upholstery would be secondary to me.  No worse than original uph. needing replacement, and serviceable for now.

 

I have a short list of postwar American cars I would not mind owning one day - I think I am going to add the Riviera, Sharp cars for sure - like the first slab side Lincolns a fresh design that seems to copy nothing from the preceding years.   

Edited August 12, 2016 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[Zimm63]

Motor is very likely not the original.  Should be silver (one year only color) with a red wrinkle finish air cleaner.  Hard to imagine somebody rebuilt it and painted it blue.  If its not original, could be questions as to how it mates to the convertor in the dynaflow.

 

Check for rust around the rear window and trunk floor as GM cars from this era often have damage there as well as the floors in the cabin.

 

Seek more input from the Riv page.  

[Steve_Mack_CT]

There's the potential game changer if your going to sink any serious money into the car.

[Buffalowed Bill]

By  no means an expert, but I do own a 1963 and a1965 Riviera. My $.02 worth, it looks like a solid car, and a reasonable price to me. With few exceptions a West Coast car is where you want to be when considering these. As Zimm63 indicated, wherever the car is from the rear window is the place to start. These are often leak prone and allows rainwater leaks into the trunk it can be a major headache! Engine color change may indicate a rebuild, I don't know why anyone would completely paint an engine unless it was out for work. The seats are not original, but only you can decide whether you can be satisfied with them in a driver quality car. Look at the wood on the door panels and the dash pad, they might tell you a great deal on how the car has been stored. It looks to me that they are in good shape, but if they show signs of being dried out and are split it could indicated that the car sat in the sun. If I were you I would buy it, good luck and enjoy the great ride!

[benjamin j]

those were fun to drive and they did feel good and solid. a test drive should tell you a little about the car. if I had more garage room I would still have my Riviera. I had a 63 and a 67.

[60FlatTop]

That's a good price if you can get in it and start driving for the rest of the season. You could ask the seller if the $7500 price is what they determined a fair price or if they thought it was worth less and raised the asking price expecting to be chiseled down. And work from there.

If the car was advertised for less or the owner thought it was worth less I would be concerned about a hidden problem. What figure do you have in mind? The $7500 is just your entry fee. Figure $3,000 to $4,000 the first two years and an average of $600 per year thereafter just for items you want nicer or the occasional surprise.

 

I would be concerned waiting for Forum answers to make the decision if I wanted it. The fact that you don't have a sense of urgency could mean it is not really what you want to spend your money on.

Bernie

 

PS. mine in sitting out in the garage with the battery hooked up any time I want it. I fired it up last weekend. Maybe I will Sunday. Why is that one disconnected?

Edited August 12, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[poci1957]

15 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

I would be concerned waiting for Forum answers to make the decision if I wanted it. The fact that you don't have a sense of urgency could mean it is not really what you want to spend your money on.

 

PS. mine in sitting out in the garage with the battery hooked up any time I want it........Why is that one disconnected?

 

I think your waiting for the Forum answers is OK, no need to be TOO urgent.  Like Bernie I also noticed the battery and wondered about that.  One point, someone suggested that you should not ask for a discount since the seller is already being generous and would be insulted.  They are not being THAT generous and I do not think it would be out of line to offer $6000 in a friendly way.  Nothing insulting about a counter offer if you are pleasant about it and not a jerk, see below.  Also, if the offer is accepted be ready to proceed immediately, it IS bad form to make an offer then not follow through:

 

YOU GOOD:  I think I would like the Riviera and appreciate that you described it honestly in your ad, but I think I need to save a little cash to cover some of the work I want to do.  I have $6000 cash and I will take it today.

APPROPRIATE RESPONSE: Well I can't do that but I will split the difference at $6800 if we can do it today

 

YOU BAD:  I don't need it and I don't even really like big sled Buicks, I just saw your ad and think maybe I could flip it to a sucker if I could fix up the lousy white paint.  Tell you what, I'll do you a favor and give you $4500 but you will have to hold it for me until next weekend.

APPROPRIATE RESPONSE:  Get the h*** out of my yard and go away    

 

  

[60FlatTop]

Here's one "I'm a builder from the New York and New Jersey area and only been bankrupt 4 or 5 times. I'm investing some of "my own" money into a new job, should know this fall. Can I take it Net 90?"

Bernie

[poci1957]

3 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Here's one "I'm a builder from the New York and New Jersey area and only been bankrupt 4 or 5 times. I'm investing some of "my own" money into a new job, should know this fall. Can I take it Net 90?"

Bernie

 

Yeah, that's perfect.  So Bernie, as a Riv owner what to you think of this one?  Looks pretty solid but I would want to carefully inspect what all has been taken apart, I also noticed the blue engine.  If the original seats were under the velour that would be a big plus but I doubt it. 

[mike6024]

On 8/11/2016 at 1:26 PM, aromo said:

 stock nailhead engine, matching plates California car.  Asking price is $7500 obo.

Is this not true, stock nailhead? Drops the value if not the original, as previously stated.

 

On 8/11/2016 at 2:10 PM, aromo said:

This is what the add said-  

 Older White Repaint In Fair Condition. The Car Has Had Body Damage And Repaired. 

Need to be concerned with this also. How's the repaint look in person? Does not seem too good in the pics. Very close inspection for rust, underside, rockers, lower door edges, rear window and windshield lower channel area. And need to look over whatever area it was that had damage repaired, evidence of bondo, paint cracking, not straight.

 

$7500 sounds high to me. You could look at it, leave it sit unsold, wait for the price to soften and then go lower still.

 

If you're impressed with the condition when seeing it in person and like it, make an offer.

[60FlatTop]

20 hours ago, poci1957 said:

 

  So Bernie, as a Riv owner what to you think of this one?  Looks pretty solid but I would want to carefully inspect what all has been taken apart, I also noticed the blue engine.  If the original seats were under the velour that would be a big plus but I doubt it. 

 Anything pre-1970 in presentable condition and under $10,000 is pretty much a good buy. The hitch who you are going to present it to.

 

I bought my '64 Riviera in 1978 for either $1900 or $2100 (don't remember) which was double the average price and, converted to 2016 money, would be about $8,000 or close to $12,000 earned before taxes. My car had a worn repaint in the original gold color and worn through in spots. The exhaust was completely incorrect and the bucket seats were from a Chevy. The engine was coded as a 1965 401. AND someone had installed a vinyl top that looked pretty good, like a '65, sometime in the '60's. In the first year, maybe 6 months, I put on a stock exhaust and bought a nice '65 Custom interior from a great member, Jerry Hirsch. I have enjoyed the car immensely for nearly 40 years, repainted it in a different color, installed the correct code 425, and worked to get the details I like and can do right.

Even though the interior in the car for sale seems somewhat incidental, that and other obvious flaws in the car can become very wearing on an owner over time.

 

Back to "presentable", there has been a constant parade of people urgently, practically wetting them self, to inform me the top is wrong or the nice looking seats are not right. These aren't BCA or AACA judges. Little old ladies with grocery carts tell me, gas station attendants tell me,, people get down on one knee and whisper it to their dogs! And they never noticed most of the other stuff. Like this topic, I questioned the battery disconnected during a photo shoot, yet greater focus is on the seats. Clark's has all you need for under $2,000.

 

Reliable and untouched, you can enjoy the car a lot. They are one of the best cars a person can own and it will make YOU happy, probably not others. If you are going to be hobby active you might reconsider. Add up all the immediate costs you will incur and pay more for a more acceptable car. I think $7500 is a cheap entry level car, $12,000 to $14,000 will help please the masses and deter some work for you. Right now I am in the market for one more special car. I am figuring $18,000 to $25,000 to satisfy me and a real AACA judge.

 

Now, that is the opinion from someone who has owned a very similar car for a whole lot of years.

Bernie

Edited August 13, 2016 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[michel88]

Reproduction upholstery kits are available from Clark's Corvair and they look just like the original.  I have a white '63 Riv that I have had for over 25 years.  They are great cars with beautiful styling.  My advice is go for it!

[padgett]

+1 one on Bernie, if the finances work, just drive it and enjoy. Figure $10-12K all in for a nice driver that will last a long time.

 

Almost bought a 65 Riv GS (dual quads) on return from SEA but the '70 Skylark GS was a much better autocross car.

[60FlatTop]

Interesting, I returned from Sea, in the WESTPAC and was stationed in Charleston, SC in 1970. In downtown Charleston there was a Buick dealer along the Cooper River who had a white 1965 GS that I came very close to buying. Ended up with a '68 Riviera about a year and a half later. Changed the color of that one from gold to maroon, too.

Bernie

[Buffalowed Bill]

You said in your first post that you are buying. Does that mean that you have already bought the car, if not is any of this palaver helping you with your decision? It seems as though the respondents have been neutral to positive about the car's profile. You are looking at a driver quality car, certainly not a restored concourse winner, or an unmolested original. You could easily double, or triple the price, or more for the last two condition types. I guess that you should know by now whether this is the car for you. Please let us know what you plan to do.

[mike6024]

On 8/11/2016 at 1:48 PM, aromo said:

 

Quote

 

 

So I suppose that WOULD be a correct 401 Nailhead V8, just painted blue. Here is what one in a "restored" 1963 Riviera looks like. Looks the same to me-

 

Here is the link to photos of the restored '63. Maybe it is a $20k vehicle? Just for a point of reference.

 

http://www.autorestorationice.com/2014/09/1963-buick-riviera-fully-restored.html

Edited August 14, 2016 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 4:26 PM, aromo said:

So I've always appreciated the look of the 63-65 Rivieras.  I have a chance to purchase one this weekend.  The year is 1963.  Painted white, stock height, stock nailhead engine, matching plates California car.  Asking price is $7500 obo.  Car is a good solid daily driver.

Am I getting a good deal at $7500 or less? Need some help on this one.

I would tend to argue this is not a good deal @ $7,500. I would want to be sure of two things before even considering this car.  #1 does it sit level, on level surfaces?  #2, does it track straight going down the road?  The pictures are interesting.  they tend to show the car leaning towards the uphill side no matter which way it is parked.  Something must be causing that.  Maybe the car has self leveling rear shocks?  Maybe the road surface in the parking lot is very uneven?  Whatever the cause, make sure of #1 and 2 above before making any offer.

 

Then start looking at the other stuff you'll want.  The pictures of the two engine compartments show that several items related to the A/C are missing.  The heater controls being the #2 observation after the compressor.  A new compressor will cost you a minimum of $500- $700 ( rebuilts can be cheaper till you start to add up how many times they need to be replaced).  The Heater control panel may be difficult to find.  The car may have the heater running all the time, or never, without that control. I don't know.  But it's something to look at.

 

The seats do look incorrect.  The dash also looks like it has some issues.  The glove box lock, missing?  The radio of course is missing. The wood paneling on the drivers door looks compromised, the metal plate under the wiper button is bent, and who know what we cannot see?  One thing you can see is the baked seals around the side window opening.  Best to check all the seals.  Also best to check the area behind the rocker panels and adjacent rear quarter panels.  You can see the trace of rust coming from between the body panels.  So there is an issue inside the quarter panels at a minimum.  This all will add up incrementally to a lot of expense and work.  And this is also incremental to the other suggestions about the rear window welt area deterioration.  This car needs a lot of work. And I would not be making any offer anywhere near the asking price.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

There is an urban legend 1939 Buick 4 door convertible hidden away about 20 miles from me. A lot of people who have heard about it have told me the story, but I know the owner, have seen it, and know even more of the story. About 45 years ago that car was advertised for sale on the far east side of Rochester, NY. A friend of mine, who will remain unnamed, I won't even mention his big red Pierce-Arrow, went to look at the car with a few other "expert" car collectors one morning. There were probably four in the group. After examining the car they all went to a local restaurant and discussed every flaw in the car and argued the high asking price, all the imperfections, every fault, until the car was abandoned as hopeless.

My friend told me that about a week later one of the local transient used car salesmen showed up at the dealership driving it with a great big smile on his face. Oblivious to the faults, he just drove the car everywhere and had one hell of a good time. The group had looked at the car so objectively they never saw the enjoyment Ray, the buyer, got from the car. My friend told me that story one day and cautioned me never to take a bunch of friends to pick apart a car I might be interested in. He regretted not buying that car, but learned a lesson to pass on, at least to me.

Splitting hairs on the value of a $7500 car is pretty close to the same as that car at something like $1200 45 years ago. It's a cheap hobby car, subjectively. Objectively it is a 50 year old car that ain't too smart to buy. My friend knows enough to follow a statement like that with "Duh."

So the comments are in. I suggested looking for a more expensive car. I have disappointed a lot of salesmen who gave the professional pitch of "How much would you pay today?" "Nothing, I don't want it." "Well there must be some lower price." "No" If I want it I'll buy it. If I don't like it when I get to know it, I'll sell it. I hate to quote myself, but "Take 75 crispy new $100 bills to you local dealer and fan them out. Tell them "I got some cash to spend." See where they take you.

Bernie

[michel88]

As far as a correctly restored engine compartment, the color of the engine should be silver.  My '63 engine is painted silver and is a completely untouched original.