looking for advice

[Guest doespoon]

I have a 1936 Wayne works school bus. Is has not been shortened, this is its original body. It belonged to my grandparents, who converted it from a school bus to a motorhome. Wayne works only built bodies, not chassis. It is sitting on an international truck. The bolt pattern on the wheels are impossible to find, not to mention split rim. We are thinking about taking the bus off the international and putting it on a newer frame. I worry that the bus will lose value doing this and that it will not be safe if we don't. What's your advice? 

[CarlLaFong]

Is there something wrong with the original wheels that makes you think that they are unsafe? Chassis swaps are not for the faint of heart, so I would avoid it at any cost. I would look into axle swaps. A later dually rear end and a matching solid axle for the front and Bob's your uncle.

[Guest doespoon]

These are split rim wheels, which posses a explosion issue. Also, because of the age, you have to use bias tires and tubes, which posses a blow out issue.  Finally,  the bolt pattern  is 6 x 7 1/4, so finding newer rims to run radials with is impossible. 

[Chris Bamford]

That is a very cool bus and with a great family history. Truly a treasure!

 

in answer to your question, yes a replacement chassis would likely hurt the value of the bus. But even if it didn't, the cost in money, time, and aggravation to change out the chassis would definitely put you behind financially if you ever sold it.  Probably a moot point however as one would be very unlikely to sell it given the family connection. 

 

Worse than the financial hit would be the lameness of having to say "this is just the body of the bus my Grandpa converted to a motorhome" rather than the actual bus itself. 

 

Personally, I think the "explosion risk" of split rims is over-rated, and you will find countless people on this site, me included, who consider any blowout risk from bias tires to be negligible. 

 

Having said that, if split rims and bias tires are going to keep you from using and enjoying that wonderful wee bus, then Carl's suggestion of axle swaps sounds like a winner. 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by Chris Bamford (see edit history)

[Frantz]

I'd also lean towards fixing. The danger with split rims is real, but gets blow out of proportion (pun intended). The bus and many other commercial vehicles of the era have survived this long without failure. Most of the cars represented in this club run bias tires. Most failures happen from parts being in poor repair or improperly assembled, not by functional designed use. I'd be happy using it after proper repair even for trips. FWIW I think you have an awesome vehicle there and I think it'd be an awful shame to change it up from original.

What's your own intended purpose for the vehicle? Do you want to bring it back to the bus condition for show, or use the retromod your grandparents did and tour the country? If restoration is the goal then keep it how it is, the parts exist and the internet makes that easier than just a few years ago. If you won't feel comfortable using it the way your grandparents did then I would agree with the above suggestion of just new axles and upgrading the brakes to a dual master cylinder.

Keep in mind where you get info from. This club is much more prone for historic preservation. Many "car guys" are much more into modifying for modern advantages to the point of fearing anything old. The good old days weren't perfect, but with proper care its not really less safe, just needs handled with a different sort of respect. Nothing wrong with either, but to preserve value and preserve history, make sure anything you do can be easily undone. If you really don't want to keep the original parts, then make sure you offer them to sale, so the "impossible to find" parts can be found by someone who is trying to keep their own truck right.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Frantz (see edit history)

[Fleek]

There have been literally millions of trucks that used, and still use split rims safely. Just check out any old farmer and you will probably find an old grain truck still in use carrying big loads on splits. Unless you are going to use it for long road trips, which I doubt, then you should be fine.

[60FlatTop]

I see the GMC in the garage. So you are experienced at making good decisions. That old cornbinder ain't made to run like a Winnebago. Did Gramps run it more than a hundred miles or so to camp? An hour drive would be a pretty good workout. Three hours would be my limit. I'd keep that bus like it is and camp in a 100-150 mile radius. Going farther, just get the late model camper. I drove a stock '56 Willys-Overland 100 miles round trip to a cruise in a few times. I knew I did some driving.

 

The wheels can be magnafluxed if you are an engineer, but not necessary if they are kept tight and you visually inspect them. The split rims stay on quite well in the seat is cleaned. Biased tires are safe if they are not aged for decades or bald. You shouldn't have a blow out over 45 or 50 or you have a severe case of driver error. If you are driving it over 50 you should be alone. Don't risk family or friends.

 

It's a neat old bus, changes and modifications will screw it up. In my area the short buses were a special purpose; could make a joke about that and the idea of changing the chasssis.

Bernie

[CarlLaFong]

12 hours ago, doespoon said:

These are split rim wheels, which posses a explosion issue. Also, because of the age, you have to use bias tires and tubes, which posses a blow out issue.  Finally,  the bolt pattern  is 6 x 7 1/4, so finding newer rims to run radials with is impossible. 

The danger is during the mounting and airing up. If they aren't properly seated, the lock rings can fly off with disastrous  results. Once seated, they are as safe as any other wheel. As to the need to run bias ply tires, I can't really comment. You do need tubes with those wheels. Are there radial tubes available in the size you need?

 

I do think and believe that all the internet rumors and long standing urban myths have made us paranoid. Split rims are dangerous. Bias plys will kill you, Drum brakes are for those with suicidal tendencies. Single master cylinders are a death warrant. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!!!!

[JACK M]

I would think that if you cannot find rims you may be able to have some made. Maybe using your original centers.

A set of newer radials will make it drive a whole lot better.

[Guest doespoon]

My grandparents went many miles in the old bus, we are wanting to do the same.  My husband is a "car guy", where I am a purist. He makes valid points about the newer chassis. I don't want a trailer queen, I want to use it!  The bus will never leave the family, it's got too much history! 

[Guest doespoon]

Radials and tubes are an option!  The gmc is my husband's as well as the '66 chevy II nova. I have a '12 Camaro, the bus and a '51 dodge 5 window truck. We are huge car fans!

[oily rag]

You can probably have the hubs / drums re-drilled to fit wheels with a common tire size.  

The wheels you have just don't blow apart, the only time they may have a problem is when first aired up.

 I have used log chains wrapped around the wheel and tire and filled them from the inside. (not fun)

[Guest]

Two choices here. Follow Carl's advice and swap the differential and straight axle with something that has a more common wheel or call Stockton Wheel (in Stockton, CA.) and have them remove your wheel centers and weld them into newer style solid wheels. I have used them for this before. Good work and not very expensive. Don't try swapping the chassis. It will be a nightmare.

[Guest doespoon]

After much talking, we're going to use a 350 small block we already have and update the transmission and axels. I'm so excited!  I'm sorry, I got the bias and radials mixed up.

Edited May 16, 2016 by doespoon (see edit history)

[Guest doespoon]

22 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

I see the GMC in the garage. So you are experienced at making good decisions. That old cornbinder ain't made to run like a Winnebago. Did Gramps run it more than a hundred miles or so to camp? An hour drive would be a pretty good workout. Three hours would be my limit. I'd keep that bus like it is and camp in a 100-150 mile radius. Going farther, just get the late model camper. I drove a stock '56 Willys-Overland 100 miles round trip to a cruise in a few times. I knew I did some driving.

 

The wheels can be magnafluxed if you are an engineer, but not necessary if they are kept tight and you visually inspect them. The split rims stay on quite well in the seat is cleaned. Biased tires are safe if they are not aged for decades or bald. You shouldn't have a blow out over 45 or 50 or you have a severe case of driver error. If you are driving it over 50 you should be alone. Don't risk family or friends.

 

It's a neat old bus, changes and modifications will screw it up. In my area the short buses were a special purpose; could make a joke about that and the idea of changing the chasssis.

Bernie

In my area, short buses are used for special needs students. Which is ironic, cuz I am a "special" person. I have severe allergies and it requires me to eat special diet, drink special water, and wear o2 when out in the public!  I'm perfect for the short bus!

[Restorer32]

Never understood changing engines and axles when there is sentimental value involved. Do what you like of course but bear in mind that you will not be driving the same bus that your grand parents loved and you will destroy any value the bus has. Why not sell it as is and buy a camper?

[Guest doespoon]

Our first goal is to fix the motor, but it's locked up pretty tight.  We're thinking about changing the axels for safety reasons. I would die if my grandson got hurt because of a blow out!

[Restorer32]

It won't be any safer with new jury rigged axles. Those wheels do not explode except when being inflated. Changing the engine, axles etc will likely make the vehicle LESS safe in the long run. Do you know that the majority of over the road tractor trailers actually run on recaps? There is no proven safety advantage to radials. Some would say that by allowing you to drive the bus comfortably at a higher speed the radials would also make the bus less safe. Restore it as original or as your grand parents modified it, stick to the 45 or 50 mph the bus was designed to be driven, take it to shows and enjoy. Buy a camper if you want to commune with nature. I base my opinion on many weekends camping with my parents in a converted '52 Chev school bus and later a '48 Flxible bus. 90% of the fun was in building them.

[Guest doespoon]

I do believe we are going to restore the bus as opposed to rebuild.  We actually have a camper for deep woods camping!

[Jon37]

A school bus that old is rare to begin with.  But with the family history of the vehicle, this makes it a unique and irreplaceable heirloom.  I would be very wary of doing modifications.  Don't try to use this as a camper, fix it up the way your grandparents had it!  A fellow in our AACA Region has a '39 Chevy school bus that his family modified many decades ago as a camper, and this vehicle is incredibly popular at car shows and other events.  I'd vote to restore or leave as-is, not to modify.  If necessary, you could trailer it around, if you feel that driving it is not safe.  But of course in the end, it's your bus to do with as you like!

 

I don't know of you're "new" to the old car / truck / bus hobby, but you might be amazed at some of the parts (some still brand-new, or reproduced) which would be available to fit your truck.  Here is one website that deals with the older International trucks: https://oldihc.wordpress.com/

 

If you do decide to modernize the engine, transmission, rear end, etc., save the old components you replaced.  And try not to cut or weld the body or frame to accommodate the new components, because someone in your family (or a future new owner) can then put the bus back into its original configuration if they like.  This makes it much more valuable than if you had made an irreversible modification.

 

When you do display the bus, why not put together a display board with enlargements of old family photos showing the bus (and your grandparents) "back in the day".  You will gather crowds.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Jon37 (see edit history)

[Guest doespoon]

Thank you for the advice.  I will have to look into pictures. I got some as we removed it from the barn, that was built for it!

[Rusty_OToole]

So how often do you replace the tires? Modern truck tires should last 100,000 miles on a rig like that. Do you drive over 100,000 miles a year? Unlikely.

 

The only danger of split rims, is to the mechanic who is installing the tires and all truck tire shops have safety equipment for this reason. The chance of the rims randomly exploding once the tires are in place, is practically zero.

 

My suggestion is you keep it as is and enjoy it within its capabilities. When originally built they probably figured on a hiway speed of 30 -40 MPH maybe 45 if you were a real daredevil. Enjoy it for what it is and be happy. If you want a modern truck buy one, it will be a lot cheaper than trying to convert a 1937 model into a new truck.

[capngrog]

7 hours ago, doespoon said:

Our first goal is to fix the motor, but it's locked up pretty tight.  We're thinking about changing the axels for safety reasons. I would die if my grandson got hurt because of a blow out!

 

If your school bus "ran when parked", and water was not allowed to enter the cylinders, it may be easier than you anticipate to free up the engine.  There are many methods for doing this, but one that I've used successfully involved squirting Marvel Mystery Oil into the cylinders and letting it sit for a few weeks, then try rotating the engine using a breaker bar.  That's the simplest way and may not always work; however, there are other ways to free up a more seriously seized engine.  A discussion of those methods would warrant its own thread, and I would be surprised if there is not already such a thread on these forums.

 

Good luck,

Grog

[Guest doespoon]

It was backed into a special building made just for the bus. It was started every year, until it ran out of gas. It was parked 36 years ago. 

[padgett]

Agree with the marvel oil and the breaker bar but would add some PB-Blaster to the brew. If you can't find MMO, ATF+Blaster will work well also. Inject oil &  Blaster and put the plugs back in. Then pull the plugs before you try to turn.

 

I'd also change the oil one quart short and add a quart of Dextron ATF (20 wt super high detergent). Run a couple of hours at varying speeds low/no load then change the oil & filter again. Twer me I'd use a high milage synthetic the second time. Any more the cost difference between dino and synthetic is in the noise.

[Guest doespoon]

Using atf as we "speak".

[Amphicar BUYER]

If you are going to actually drive it any distance, go with the new chassis, but keep the old one, restore it and store it away. Best of both worlds! You will be safer for road trips as the newer chassis will have better brakes, better ride, better economy, more power (especially if you go with a diesel) and better reliability not to mention part availability while away from home.

 

If you don't plan to go many miles, restore the chassis, repair all that is needed and live life!

 

Like it has been said before, the danger in splits are while mounting. If they blow at just about any point, that is almost always operator error. I've mounted too many to count, never saw one blow because I knew what I was doing. CLEAN the ring and wheel thoroughly before assy, be 110% sure it's seated fully, inflate in a cage slowly making sure the ring remains in it's seated and upright position. 

[JACK M]

A breaker bar maybe, but I would put the truck in high gear and hook a chain to it and pull gently with the Jimmy.

If that doesn't work try pulling backwards.

If you pull so hard that it slides you may bend a rod. So, pull gently !!

I have knocked engines loose by using the high gear method and simply rocking the car by hand to pop them loose.

[Frantz]

On the "hot rod" side, please don't do a 350 chevy. Honestly, that's about the most boring thing you could possible do. Nothing wrong with the motor, but everyone has one and IMO it would be a horrible mistake to put in such a unique vehicle. No matter how many pros there are, I wouldn't put a SBC into anything that didn't have it factory  just out of how overused they are. They aren't overused because they are better, they just happened to be introduced at the right time with the right advancements for modified hot rods so the aftermarket it flooded. If going for a different motor I would suggest any of the great inline 6 motors. A late model 4.0 from a jeep would give you ease of parts availability and it will fit in the hood better. You can make them run on carbs too if that's you're wish. But seriously, a 350 is a poor choice.

IMO it sounds like you're new to the old car hobby, which is great! But it also sounds like you've gotten alot of generic advise from other folks. "Just put a 350 in it, that will be easy and cheap" is the most overused uncreative advise that gets pass along by someone who isn't interested in giving actual thoughtful advise. Sorta like saying you need to upgrade everything because it's not currently safe is more a fear of the unknown than any useful fact.

[JACK M]

10-4 on the sbc.

[padgett]

Agree, you need to find an Allison V-1710. That would be an interesting swap and period correct.

Edited May 22, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Rust will build on the walls of the cylinders with open valves from TDC to the distance exposed due to piston location. Oiling can seep into the ringlands and help loosen the flaky rust on the walls.If you do get the engine to break loose all the debris will be scrapped along the walls by the piston rings. Being aggressive once loosened car make it jam higher up the wall. All those flaky rust pieces left a little pit behind. Even if it does get running again there is a good chance all the pits will hold oil during operation. Oil in the pits in the combustion area will burn and probably smoke. The rings will be all crudded up with rust and probably not seat well. And rust chips tend to be harder that uncorroded metal, causing fast wear. The head really needs to come off and the minimum of a honing and re-ring done.

 

If it did not get a fresh oil change right at the time of parking the old oil can be slightly acidic and etch a couple of thousandths off the main and rod surfaces. If the etched babbit wipes off on startup and leaves you with .0004 or 5" of clearance it will rattle. The bearings should at least be inspected and measured.

 

If the cooling system was dry scaling rust could be in the water jackets, especially at the rear in low flow areas. Removing ant drain valves and a check for plugs should be done. Even a couple of Welch plugs could be pulled. Many flathead sixes have a water distribution baffle behind the water pump. It is a good idea to hook onto that and pull it.

 

Even all that is a lot less work than modifying it. It is kind of like the difference between taking on some fairly routine repairs or engineering the integration of a group of selected, but unrelated, parts.

Bernie