Beemon Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) The car is in the shop for a scheduled tear down of the rear end to replace all the bearings and seals. I got a call today from the shop that the pinion gear was loose and has been hammering away at the housing and spider gear assembly. Furthermore, it has effectively sanded off the hardening on the surface of the teeth. The gear set is fine but he strongly suggested to track down a replacement. As far as I know, 1956 is a one year wonder with the rear end. The local classic junkyard has no rear ends left in their two 1956 Buicks. How often does this gear set pop up? No one makes this gear and I haven't been able to turn any leads. A little bit of history: My grandfather had the rear end out in the mid 60s and went through and replaced all the bearings and seals himself. He tightened down the pinion nut and then backed it off. Edited March 17, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) I found this listing. It's the Special 3.23 gear set vs the 3.36. What type of significant difference is this? Lack of power? Better economy? These gears are for the 264 I'm assuming. Edited March 17, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) So essentially your wheels turn slightly faster for the same RPM on the engine. Probably not enough difference to see a fuel economy change on these cars, There's a good article here:http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/how-gear-works/ Edited March 17, 2016 by wndsofchng06 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 (edited) 3.23 will give you a higher road speed for a set engine RPM. And slower acceration Edited March 17, 2016 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon bee Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 A fairly uninformed opinion would be: grab that sucker, worry about small ratio differences later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Yeah, only about 200 to 250 rpm difference . Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) So just to clarify, there are nothing wrong with the gears, except that the bottom of the pinion gear is rounded at the edges from hitting the spider housing. They are solid, but the hardening has been worn off in places because the pinion was loose (it looks like rubbed through tin foil?). What trouble would I get in to if I kept the gears? Edited March 18, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) Looking at the carrier in the listing I notice some lite rust on the gears. When I restored my 55 Olds the ring gear had some lite pitting on a few of the teeth. I figured it would not be a problem. I was wrong. The rear hummed badly under acceleration. A new center section fixed it. Maybe that listed rear is fine. I'm just saying it doesn't take much to make it otherwise.........Bob Edited March 18, 2016 by Bhigdog (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 How much are you going to drive that car? If yours can be put back together to be functional and quiet and using 85W-140 lube it will last a few hundred thousand miles.The only thing I would worry about on that ebay item is the pinion splines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 I would like to drive the car fairly often. I'm going to be going to a four year institution to finish up my engineering degree soon and it's the only car I own, so it was going to be my daily driver at the campus. I called the shop, going to go in and take a few pictures so you guys can see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttotired Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 I wouldnt put that back in my car Was it noisy, apart from where the pinion was hitting the carrier, the crown wheel teeth are shot, I would have thought it would have howled like a banchee Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Both show the same surface damage, the ring and the pinion. They (the shop) are correct... that you do need a new set. If you got lucky to find a NOS set, you don't need to replace the ring gear carrier just because it has marks. But the spider and side gears need to be looked at during rebuild, ....but they do look fine in these pics. They don't turn very much, which is why they are looking pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Ttotired said: I wouldnt put that back in my car Was it noisy, apart from where the pinion was hitting the carrier, the crown wheel teeth are shot, I would have thought it would have howled like a banchee Mick It was loud above 20mph. Shifting into reverse or drive after starting the car always clunked into gear, but after running the gear clunking went away. 33 minutes ago, F&J said: Both show the same surface damage, the ring and the pinion. They (the shop) are correct... that you do need a new set. If you got lucky to find a NOS set, you don't need to replace the ring gear carrier just because it has marks. But the spider and side gears need to be looked at during rebuild, ....but they do look fine in these pics. They don't turn very much, which is why they are looking pretty good. So far nothing has turned up except for those dirty Ebay listings with the wrong gear set. I would call Wheatbelt, but they aren't around anymore sadly. I'm just in a bind, it can't sit in the shop forever and I have no leads to a good gear set. The cars at the local classic junkyard have the rears torn out already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Your corner of the US has a better chance of finding a used chuck, than my area. Cars rotted out decades ago, so none are left in my local wreckers Is there any chance your local wrecking yard is part of that service, where they can request a used part from another yard ? If not try a wanted ad on buy/sell up at the top on the main forum page. Also could try a advanced search on Craigslist to see if one is a few hours away. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 The guy who runs the local yard does it out of his own pocket in his backyard. Last time I was up there he said he just dealed locally. I already put in a wanted add in Buy/Sell, still no hits. I have until next Friday before they put it back in the car and say come back again soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Did you try Bud's Salvage, as written about in the March Bugle? Bud's Salvage. You could also try French Lake Auto Parts in Minnesota. French Lake auto Parts I bet each of them have more than one unit available. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 French lake would probably get it out and shipped quickly, if they do have it. I don't know anything about the other company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said: Did you try Bud's Salvage, as written about in the March Bugle? Bud's Salvage. You could also try French Lake Auto Parts in Minnesota. French Lake auto Parts I bet each of them have more than one unit available. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. Edit: Sent out parts request quote, but neither one had anything listed. Won't hear back until Tuesday... Edited March 19, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Holmberg Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 You can buy an later rear axle at least up to 1959 probebly even 1960 and use the complet differential with ring and pinion.The only problem is that the pinion axle are shoter on 1957-1960,as in the picture. Leif in Sweden 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 One other thing to consider is that the pinion was making metal chips and fine particles that circulated in the oil and were carried into the bearings and all sliding surfaces. All the bearings from the carrier to the rear axle have probably been compromised. You may get away with disassembling everything and cleaning and flushing everything and putting up with a noisy rear until you can find a replacement...........Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 19, 2016 Author Share Posted March 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Leif Holmberg said: You can buy an later rear axle at least up to 1959 probebly even 1960 and use the complet differential with ring and pinion.The only problem is that the pinion axle are shoter on 1957-1960,as in the picture. Leif in Sweden Will this bolt up to the original torque tube and mounts? I'm not a fabricator and I hate chopping up the car. 3 hours ago, Bhigdog said: One other thing to consider is that the pinion was making metal chips and fine particles that circulated in the oil and were carried into the bearings and all sliding surfaces. All the bearings from the carrier to the rear axle have probably been compromised. You may get away with disassembling everything and cleaning and flushing everything and putting up with a noisy rear until you can find a replacement...........Bob The car was in the shop to have all the bearings and seals redone in the rear end anyways. The car can't sit in the shop for long because they have a wait list now and they can't keep the car in the shop if they have nothing to work with. When I was in on Friday, the tech said the gears are in good condition for how old the car is, there is no problem with meshing and none of the teeth are damaged except for the hardening that's been worn off. It's under warranty for one year so they said if I find some gears in the next year they'll open it up for no shop time charge but I'll most likely have to buy a bearing kit again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Dawn Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Beemon, I just upgraded my 56 model 48 to an open driveline. I left the original rearend with the shop that did the upgrade. If you want their contact information PM me for the info. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 49 minutes ago, Beemon said: Will this bolt up to the original torque tube and mounts? I'm not a fabricator and I hate chopping up the car. The car was in the shop to have all the bearings and seals redone in the rear end anyways. The car can't sit in the shop for long because they have a wait list now and they can't keep the car in the shop if they have nothing to work with. When I was in on Friday, the tech said the gears are in good condition for how old the car is, there is no problem with meshing and none of the teeth are damaged except for the hardening that's been worn off. It's under warranty for one year so they said if I find some gears in the next year they'll open it up for no shop time charge but I'll most likely have to buy a bearing kit again. Then just run it and look for a replacement. I'll be surprised if it's not noisy. Make sure they clean out the rear itself. Probably lots of particles hiding in there. Also I'm not so sure the gears are case hardened rather than fully hardened & tempered alloy steel......................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 1956 vs 1957-1960 pinion gear comparision 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Okay I understand now. So would that be a bad thing that it has a smaller spline surface? Doesn't seem like it would affect the 1956 torque tube. Also does this mean that the ring and pinion off a 1957-1960 Buick is the same as a 1956 or are they still different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Holmberg Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 The ratio can be different as you can see on the picture,and a smaller spline surface are not the very best on 1956 models if the splines already are not the very best .Before you put the rear axle back on the car again ,just check the rear tube splines against the pinion splines,they use to be to much "play" on it. 1956 splines on the "pinion-and tube"are probebly the worst year of Buick, 1957 and later models changed it to be one more U-joint on the tube close to the rear axle. Leif in Sweden. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 Page from my interchange...draw your own conclusions carrier.pdf 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Just to be clear, the ring and pinions are interchangeable from 1956 to 1960? Or is it the whole rear end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 The note at the top of the pdf indicates the whole rear end center 'chunk'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 My interchange says: 1. 1957-1960 center section will fit 1956. 2. Complete 1957 rear axle assembly (w/ axle shafts & drive shaft) will fit 1956 in the same series (ie. 1957 40/60 series will fit 1956 40/60 series). Axle shafts were the same on 40/60 series for 1956-1958. You might be able to make a 1957-1960 ring and pinion work in a 1956 rear if you know the differences. In addition to what has been posted above, I think the ring gear was bolted on in 1957-1960, but rivited on in 1956. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Okay so am I to assume a 1956 Roadmaster/Super complete rear end will not fit but the carrier assembly will? The ring and pinion are identical but the housing isn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean1997 Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) Yes. The center section (carrier w/ gears) will fit (the same for all series other than the gear ratio) but the complete rear end won't fit because the axles and housing for the 50/70 series are wider than the 40/60 series. So you need one of the following (watch ratios for all options): -1956-1960 center section (carrier w/ ring and pinion gears) from any series -1956-1957 complete rear axle assembly from 40 or 60 series -1956 ring and pinion gear set and you might be able to get the following to work: -1957-1960 ring and pinion gear set Edited March 20, 2016 by sean1997 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 20, 2016 Author Share Posted March 20, 2016 Thank you so much this is exactly what I wanted to know. I have a lead on a 3.23 gear set but this will broaden my search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Holmberg Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 This`s what you can use from a later rear axle(bolt on),the rest of the rear axle needs to be from your own 1956.But I can see you have got the help you needed. Leif in Sweden 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Found a salvage yard 2.5 hours away from me that has an unmolested 1956 Buick Century in the yard. I had to pay a deposit for them to pull it so I might get lucky. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 On the dry side? Maybe some pictures when you go? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) Weather is looking good! Unless you mean the gears, then I won't know until I get out there. They're still sealed in the car with the 3.36 gears. I'm taking my original gears to match numbers just in case. I will take some pictures though. If you need anything, here's a full list of what they have - must be a little outdated because they said they had one Century that's not listed on this page, but I found it on another. Bear in mind it takes them one full work day to process orders and most of it is local pick up only, that was the case for the carrier anyways. Edited March 21, 2016 by Beemon (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 21, 2016 Author Share Posted March 21, 2016 Just wanted to post an update: I got a call today from the junkyard and I might not get out until Wednesday. I want to point out that they made it clear this is not a pick and pull style junkyard and they oversee any parts being removed from the vehicle, hence the one day work advance. About the only thing you can pull are hub caps... I can take a look and see what they have upon request but I won't be able to have them pulled until their employees are free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Well just wanted to give a status update. Turns out the gear set was junk and I never got out to the junkyard. There's one more in Idaho, but I have yet to hear from them and my spring break ends on Sunday. My other leads turned up dry - either pitted or non-existant. The plan is to put it back in the car and see what comes next. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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