Renault 1929 RY1 Monasix

[oldcar]

Further to yesterdays photo of the cylinder block, this is NOT the one I am going to rebuild. This is the engine that I paid for and shipped out from France having been told that "it had been turned over". This is NOT just surface rust as the result of standing for a few weeks.

 

What I WILL be using is the cylinder block and pistons from New Zealand and the crankshaft and conecting rods from the French engine, the camshaft from the New Zealand engine along with 12 new valves and valve guides and new piston rings. I still have to decide if it is really worth the expense of having the camshaft reground to a somewhat more "sporting" profile. I have now had the cylinder head ground and re-surfaced to increase the compression ratio slightly.

 

Bj.

Edited November 24, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Ian_Greenlaw]

Hi Bernie,

Are you finding Tony only wants larger jobs or is he charging whatever he wants to ?

I hope to be taking mine there early next year but I'll need to talk pricing first.

Have you tried Grant White in Rosanna ? He's also done a lot of cars I know and works from home.

Cheers

Ian

[oldcar]

Hello Ian

Good to hear from you, I suspect that I caught Tony on a bad day; both for him and for me. I just felt that $1500 for two little bucket seats, with no pleats, when I am supplying the leather seemed rather a lot. perhaps I am living in the past. Some of my VSCC friends swear by Grant White and I know he does a lot of work on VDC members cars. I have never met him. I plan to take the seats etc over to Tony and have a talk with him about price. I will not need them for some time. If I damage Helen's sewing machine stitching four thicknesses of leather it will cost me a lot more.

 

Bj.

[36 D2 Coupe]

Wow! Bernie that engine block looks like one I had to rebuild 30 years ago for a '34 De Soto Airflow. It had sat outside with no head and no pan for years. Miraculously the block was sound but needed .060 OS pistons to get past the corrosion on the cylinder walls. The parts were relatively easy to get unlike the Renault. I wish you luck and feel your pain.

[unimogjohn]

Bernie, what does the other block look like?  Cannot be worse than the other one to showed to us.  Is it your plan now to complete the engine and gear train rebuilds and get it in the car?  I know you are bleeding on the build, but it would be great to see a driving car in the future.  We are all following along so don't despair.

[oldcar]

Hello John

As my attempts to virtually give the car away, ie. Best offer over GB £1; as advertised on the Prewar Car website has attracted only two enquiries & both have now departed without making an offer, it seems as though I am stuck with it. As I cannot help punishing myself I am continuing to do and have done work on the car. Where or when it will all end is anyones guess. My love/hate relationship with it continues its roller-coaster ride. What drives me is that I can see that one day it will be something really special. It is just a pity that very few people share this view. My only dread is that I may not live long enough to finish it. The rareity of this model Renault almost puts it on a par with the Dixie Flyer. That it will almost certainly be the last in the long line of "Bernie Jacobson Restorations" will make it unique.

 

Bj.

[Bleach]

Looks like it's already fossilized.

[oldcar]

Hello Bleach

You may be right, the only things of value in this motor were the crank and con-rods. Being a 1929 RY1 means that it has the "heavy crank" with 44 mm b/e journals against the 40mm of the earlier RY motor along with stronger con-rods. The main bearings are the same size in both types which means I can use these in either cylinder block. So all is not completely lost. I still have to compare the camshafts, hopefully the later engine had slightly better valve timing. Fortunately the rust had not penetrated below the bottom of the cylinder bores. Certainly if I was working regardless of cost this block could be re-bored to a suitable over size also the valve seats would all need to have inserts fitted.

Unfortunately in this rebuild the budget is anything but bottomless.

 

Bj.

Edited November 26, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

The "spare" Paris-Rhone dynastart arrived this morning packed with typical Teutonic throughness virtually welded into a heavy gauge steel "box". This one while I have not tested it has all the appearance of having been worked on recently and came with the correct Renault control box. It can go on the shelf with the collection of other Renault bits and pieces. The other photographs show one of the pistons with the typical Louis Renault "do as I do, not as others may do" thinking with regard to the gudeon pin and circlip arrangement. I have never come across anything similar in all the years I have spent rebuilding old engines. It certainly simplifies fitting & removing the circlips.

 

Bj.

Edited November 28, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

More Louis Renault independent thinking is shown in the valve timing diagram. In my humble opinion, the 25 degrees of valve overlap during the induction stroke is very forward thinking  for the late 1920s & especially for a side valve motor. For example a side valve Dodge 6 cyl of the mid to late 1930s The inlet valve did not start to open until 6 degrees AFTER tdc. The nearest comparison is probably a 1930 Austin 12-Six being very much the same, 1500cc side valve six cylinder, the inlet valve is just starting to open at tdc.

 

Bj.

Edited November 28, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

I am sorry!

Perhaps all that was a bit too technical for all you "restorers" who's most difficult decision making is whether to sign the cheques with a ball point, or a felt tip pen? 

Perhaps we could have a really meaningful discussion about the sociological implications surrounding the choice of either blue or black ink? 

There again what is revealed about those complicated souls who choose to only use green ink?

Will your Bank accept cheques signed in RED ink?

Is it still possible to be "happy and gay" without being homosexual?

For the really deep thinkers, should we drink local "sparkling wine" or insist on only top shelf French  Champagne?

 

I look forward to reading your answers to these most important questions......

 

Bj

Edited November 28, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  Have you been partaking of the samples??

 

  Ben

[oldcar]

Hello Ben

Only the top shelf French Champagne, Mumms the word. But you failed to answer even one of my questions.

 

 

Bj.

[Roger Zimmermann]

 

Perhaps all that was a bit too technical for all you "restorers" who's most difficult decision making is whether to sign the cheques with a ball point, or a felt tip pen? 

 

 

Bernie, with all the respect I owe you, I have the impression that you are unfair to most of the people looking at you posts. The diagram you posted is interesting, but how many people understand what it means? Such diagram could interest another audience: the people who modify cars with different camshaft or develop new engines. Those must have an idea what they are looking for but not those who are restoring an old car. Usually, they are happy if the engine is running the way it left the factory, whithout to go deeper in the technical characteristics.

[ROD W]

Bernie,  To answer your last question.  As I,m from Queensland I only drink xxxx beer and not to mention some Bundy  Rum.

Edited November 29, 2015 by ROD W (see edit history)

[Fossoyeur]

More Louis Renault independent thinking is shown in the valve timing diagram. In my humble opinion, the 25 degrees of valve overlap during the induction stroke is very forward thinking  for the late 1920s & especially for a side valve motor. For example a side valve Dodge 6 cyl of the mid to late 1930s The inlet valve did not start to open until 6 degrees AFTER tdc. The nearest comparison is probably a 1930 Austin 12-Six being very much the same, 1500cc side valve six cylinder, the inlet valve is just starting to open at tdc.

 

Bj.

Pretty interesting remark.

If any of you wish, tell Bernie, and I'm pretty sure he will share his understanding, and explain further

Then we may all share a (virtual ?) beer

[OnSafari]

More Louis Renault independent thinking is shown in the valve timing diagram. In my humble opinion, the 25 degrees of valve overlap during the induction stroke is very forward thinking  for the late 1920s & especially for a side valve motor. For example a side valve Dodge 6 cyl of the mid to late 1930s The inlet valve did not start to open until 6 degrees AFTER tdc. The nearest comparison is probably a 1930 Austin 12-Six being very much the same, 1500cc side valve six cylinder, the inlet valve is just starting to open at tdc.

 

Bj.

Bernie, so does this mean there is no need to regrind the cam for a more "sporty" profile?

[oldcar]

Thank you all.

Perhaps Australian humour is a little too finely honed for most of you.

As Fossoyeur can tell you Mumm's is one of the top ten labels of French Champagne.

 

In English humour, to keep Mum, is to keep quiet or retain a secret.

 

 

Hello On Safari

I will run it past my Camshaft specialist and be guided by him.

 

To all the others, I do wish that you would "keep up". Australian Humour loses a lot in the "translation"- explanation!

ie. Australian humour is similar to the English but often more cutting and "closer to the bone". This is particularly true when associated with people of a "certain age" (Pre-ww 2.).

 

Again I am sorry,  I would have thought that anyone with even the most basic mechanical knowledge would have understood a valve timing diagram. I must stop judging others by my own standards,

ie. "self-taught" at the School of Hard Knocks.

 

Bj.

Edited November 30, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

To explain how a timing diagram works. imagine that you are looking at the camshaft from the front of the engine. The vertical line marked TDC and BDC relates to number one piston. tdc is 'top dead centre' meaning that No 1 piston is at the top of the cylinder, at the top end of its stroke. bdc is botton dead centre so the piston is at it's lowest point at the bottom of its stroke.

 The two lines show the posion of the lobes of the camshaft for number one cylinder. The inner circle is marked Inlet Valve while the outer circle is marked Exhaust Valve. In this case it shows that the cam lobe for the inlet valve is just starting to lift the inlet valve at 25 degrees before TDC and at the other end of its travel is allowing the inlet valve to close at 70 degrees after BDC that is just as the piston is commencing its compression stroke. This indicates that the inlet valve is open for a total of 275 degrees. In a four stroke engine  the spark plug fires every second rotation of the crankshaft. This may confuse some people, the term "four stroke" relates to the piston traveling the lenght of the cylinder bore  four times (up-down-up-down) Because the cam shaft driving gears or chain wheels are "geared" 2:1, the camshaft rotates only once to two rotations of the crankshaft. 

The exhaust lobe on the cam in this case opens 45 degrees before BDC and the valve closes at TDC.  The exhause valve is open for 225 degrees.

[Spinneyhill]

OK Bernie, your brain is almost as bouncy as mine! My wife keeps looking at me quizzically while saying "What?" (with a glottal stop, not a "t"). Then she gets scratchy with me for being obtuse.

 

OK, philosophy. What is a cheque? You actually sign them? Who has a pen these days, let alone a felt tip?

The sociology of blue vs black ink is at the photocopier while you stuff about trying to make blue writing show up and there are six colleagues champing at the bit, waiting. Personally, when I was a whipper snapper I wrote with a fountain pen (carefully, ink was usually all over me) in turquoise ink. Very pretty colour. What does that say about me?

Red ink on a cheque is the other fellow's problem isn't it? As is green.

Ref local fizzy wine vs some French people's local fizzy wine, depends on who is paying, surely? Why pay for the postage to get it from France? Mind you, we are short of a few minerals in NZ soils (selenium for one, also cobalt in some areas, boron in others) so some imported foods are probably beneficial.

 

As for the valve timing, that diagram makes it very simple in my eyes. The question is, how much experimentation did he do before arriving at that? And why did others not do that work back then too?

Edited November 30, 2015 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Spinneyhill

Nice to have a friendly Kiwi. You actually jumped the gun a bit, I had to go and eat my lunch but I will add the other diagram here.

Louis Renault had been building cars from the "turn of the century" 1899-190 and was largely self taught.  I am not sure if his valve timing was intentional or by accident. The pity is that he was still using very small valves and ports in 1929 (21mm=less than 1 inch) and there is no way that you can fit bigger valves. His (side valve) cylinder head design is obviously the result of much thought but not quite up to Riccardo.  I suppose that he had reliability and economy in mind first and foremost.  Anyone wanting a more detailed explanation of valve timing can send me a PM and I will scan some relevant material and send it to them,

In the meanwhile here is another diagram that may help.

Fossoyeur will no doubt agree the best place to drink French wine is in France although the (very) occasional bottle of Mumm on special occassions is most enjoyable anywhere. 

 

This diagram is from my copy of Odham's Practical Automobile Engineering (revised edition) probably printed in the late 1940s or early 50s. It runs to 480 pages and covers most aspects of basic maintaince and repair. My copy was obtained second hand about 40 years ago and is still an informative reference for anyone working on cars of the period. 1920s to 1950s.

Edited November 30, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

There must be an optimum RPM at which the valve timing works most effectively. Today, of course, they vary the valve timing to keep it "optimal". It is my understanding the induction strokes set up a sort of resonating pressure pulse in the inlet system at the optimum revs, similarly for the exhaust stroke. The low pressure part of the pulse helps draw the exhaust gases out which means the engine does not waste power doing it, so if you can time the valve to be open when that occurs, you gain efficiency. The inlet must work on the high pressure pulse to help push mixture in.

 

Another most helpful drawing!

[oldcar]

The other theory is that by using "tuned length" individual exhaust pipes you gain an "extractor effect" where each pulse creates a partial vacuum behind it, sucking the inlet charge into the combustion chamber in the process giving a more effective filling. This is where the over lap ie; both valves open, is really benefitial. I guess it all depends what you are looking for in your car. Basically in order to gain the maximum power increase you need to have everything working together, within the most desireable rev range.

Prior to "de-tuning" our Lagonda Rapier the maximum power came in between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm which  was fine for sprint races but did not make for pleasant long distance touring. It now has more than ample torque (pulling power) at low revs and will amble along at 2,000 rpm (30mph). Only thing is, it still complains on anything less than 98/100 octane fuel.

None of this matters, if all you do is push your car into a trailer, then park it all day on a Show-field.

I think that the Rapier would simply go berserk if I suggested that it travel in a trailer and then stand around all day. Mis-treated it can get really nasty and can give you a savage bite, especially in the hip-pocket. It needs regular exercise and prefers nice long runs over hilly terain. It alsolutely loves it when we take it to Europe and let it loose on some of the historic Alpine Passes. How do I know all this? It talks to me all the time when we are out driving. If your car does not talk to you, you are missing out on all the fun of driving an old car.

 

Bj.

Edited December 1, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Bernie,

The timing diagram for your Renault is of interest in comparison to our much older Veteran, a 1912 Maxwell 2 cyl. 

I have modified the valve timing of the Maxwell to improve its low speed torque.  The attached table shows the original and modified valve timing. 

This engine is a 2 cyl of 2.1 litre capacity and it will be quite different to your Renault in that it and is very slow revving.  The engine peaks at about 1500 RPM which corresponds to about 55 KPH.  The modification was successful, the car will now pull well down to very low RPM.  I would expect the Renault to have a considerably higher rev range.

The reasoning behind the changes to the Maxwell was to improve the volumetric efficiency  ( the ratio of volume of fuel/air induced to actual cylinder volume).  The inlet valves now open earlier and close later.

The ignition is manually adjusted and the retarded setting is only used when starting (by hand crank), any further advance risks a broken wrist.  Once starting the car runs best fully advanced including low RPM pulling on hill.  Retarding the spark slows the car.

The improved performance raises the question as to why the original manufacturer did not use a more efficient timing.   This model car was sold in large numbers and you would expect that the designers would have experimented to optimise the valve timing.   I guess we will never know.

I do not share your disdain for other aspects of our hobby such as ‘cheque book restoration” or non driving display only cars.  There is room in the hobby for a very wide range of interests.

David

 

1912 Maxwell 2 cylinder valve and ignition timing   Original Cams -degrees Modified Cams -degrees Inlet vavle opens 15.5 -6.4 Inlet valve closes 225 243.7 Inlet valve open interval 209.5 250.1       Exhaust valve opens  139.1 112.3 Exhaust valve closes 10.3 7.2 Exhaust valve open interval 231.2 254.9       Spark fully retarded -3 -3 Spark fully advanced -40 -40       Notes:     Open and close angles are at start of open or close     All degrees are clockwise relative to TDC at zero degrees          

 

[DavidMc]

The valve timing data in the above post is in XL format on the computer but it does not transmit that way.  When attaching the file I get the following:

 

"Error You aren't permitted to upload this kind of file"  

 

Any suggestions?

[DavidMc]

Hopefully the table will attach this time.

img-151129232601.pdf

[oldcar]

Thank you David 

How nice to hear from you again. Re your question as to why were manufactures so conservative? There are a number of reasons.

The first being Engineers they would have been educated to always stay on the safe side. The fuel available was probably the most significant limiting factor.

The customer dictated that their vehicle was trouble free and long lived. Very often components were hand finished and possibly not to the fine tolerances we are familiar with today.

Mainly due to the type of road surfaces most frequently encountered speeds were extremely slow by todays standards.

The original owner of your Maxwell would not have dreamed of doing the distances or the speeds that you drive the Maxwell at or over today.

Cars were essentially utilitarian and not the playthings that they have becone.

Can you imagine using the Maxwell as a daily driver or how long it would last if you did. I am sure that you have read any number of accounts written by Early Motorists and their trials and tribulations.

 

Re: My aversion to Cheque Book Restorers. On my very first visit to the UK  while at a VSCC event I was introduced to a well known"Titled" gentleman of "a certain age'. Before shaking my hand he grabbed my wrist and turned it over to inspect my fingers. On doing this he exclaimed "Ah! you have Nut undoing fingers, I will shake your hand and be happy to talk with you" This is something I still remember quite vividly almost 50 years later.  How many people still have nut undoing fingers? I for one certainly still do! I have had them since Primary School age & hopefully will die with them.

 

Bj.

Edited November 30, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Now for something a little lighter..........

 

Bj.

Edited November 30, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

 It needs regular exercise and prefers nice long runs over hilly terain. It alsolutely loves it when we take it to Europe and let it loose on some of the historic Alpine Passes. How do I know all this? It talks to me all the time when we are out driving. If your car does not talk to you, you are missing out on all the fun of driving an old car.

 

Bj.

In case you missed this one as part of my earlier post #343 here it is again. Taken in the Alps during our 2009 visit. The Col de L/Iseran at 9,088 ft is the highest paved pass in France. Closed during the Winter this photo was taken during the Summer. Some fantastic motoring, although the altitude does do some funny things with SU carbs making the mixture somewhat richer. Fortunately Rapier engines seem to be happier on a rich mixture. The question is would the Renault with the same cubic capacity (1500cc) and two extra cylinders manage to climb it?

 

Bj.

Edited December 1, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Leaving the Renault for the moment I have started this morning on the job of replacing the Lagonda Rapier timing chains.

see:- http://forums.aaca.org/topic/183184-lagonda-rapiers/page-15?&p=1432162

[oldcar]

Anyone who has visited my Lagonda Rapier thread will know that I have not been entirely idle.

 http://forums.aaca.o...e-15?&p=1432162

 

Bj.

Edited December 6, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

No car work today; more Grandfather duties.

Anyone interested there are lots of new photographs on my Lagonda Rapier thread.

This one from our 2009 visit to the French Alps

 

Bj.

Edited December 8, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

With the Lagonda Rapier all back together and running nicely I should be able to do some Renault things again.         

Bj,                                                                                                                                                                                     . 

Edited December 9, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Unfortunately the Renault is still on the "wait list" as following some intensive pruning of a couple of trees in the garden, I am now rebuilding the garden shed. This has involved moving the shed about a metre away from one of the trees this has in turn required lifting the concret paving slab floor and re laying them and straightening out the roof and re-fixing it but before I can finish this I have to replenish my stock of "pop" rivets. It looks as if there will not be too much more work on the Renault until the New Year. I did manage to do some work on the running boards but this too has ground to a stop until I purchase some black ribbed rubber sheeting. 

 

Bj

Edited December 12, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Having an hour or so to spare yesterday I managed to buy the 1 metre length of ribbed rubber matting. It is already cut to size and glued to the top of the running boards. I have started cutting the aluminium edging, two or three weeks ago I purchased a box ot chrome plated-brass escutcheon pins so there should be no delay in completing the job.

Bj

[oldcar]

I purchased a box ot chrome plated-brass escutcheon pins

Bj

Whoa there! I can hear some of you saying, What the heck is an "escutcheon"? According to my biggest dictionary among other things it is the plate surrounding a key-hole or light switch. so an "escutcheon pin is a neat method of securing one of these. They also come in handy for securing the aluminium edging for the running boards. I the past I have used counter-sunk, raised head, sloted as opposed to Phillips head, screws but these are tiresome to fit, time consuming and never seem to look as good as they should. The one problem is that these days the local hardware store has gone up-market and only stock fast moving items. Having finally tracked down a supplier of Chrome plated, brass escutcheon pins I have found that they are strictly whole-sale only. This means buying a pack of 1,000.  Oh well! 

Edited December 16, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Taylormade]

I'm getting ready to do the running boards on my 32 Dodge. What did you use to glue the rubber mat down? I'm assuming industrial grade contact cement.

[oldcar]

Hello Taylormade

You would be correct. You really need to leave them for at least 24 hours to cure before handling them. If possible either leave them in a press or with a heavy weight evenly distributed over the entire surface. This is difficult with shaped running boards, The ones on the Renault are flat wooden "boards".

 

Bj 

[oldcar]

For those interested in our activities in 2015 go to http://forums.aaca.org/topic/183184-lagonda-rapiers/page-16.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

As Santa makes his first landing in Australia, due to our very advanced world timing arrangement, I will take this opportunity to wish all the "oldcar' enthusiasts who pop in here every so often "A very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

 

Cheers

 

Bernie j.