Renault 1929 RY1 Monasix

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

  MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and all yours, Bernie.   I have fond memories of my Australian memories.

 

  Ben

[Spinneyhill]

Due to the most advanced world timing arrangement here in the Land of the Long White Cloud (Aoteoroa or New Zealand), Santa has already been. This Gentleman was one of his way-finding scouts.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

[oldcar]

Thank you Ben and Spinneyhill.

 

There really is a Santa after all!

Two or three days ago I placed a request on the VSCC UK Forum regarding Part 2 and 3 June/July 1930, Autocar magazine articles on the care and Maintenance of the Renault 12.5hp (Monasix RY 1 & 2) Less than 48hours later I have copies of both making my set complete. These were sent to me by Greg Wrapson who is the Chairman of the Alvis Register in the UK. I find it quite remarkable that someone whom I have never met and who has never owned a Renault could respond so promptly.

While I have been a Member of the VSCC (UK) since 1983 I have only attended one or two events every five years and have never met Greg and have never owned an Alvis. Perhaps even more remarkable here I am living in Australia posting this on an American Forum.

 

It is indeed a small world.

 

Bernie j.

Edited December 25, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

One interesting thing to have come out as a result of reading the Autocar article is that my Renault is not one the common or garden variety Mona-six but the far more exotic and rare Mona-stella. This is verified by the presence of the brake servo attached to the rear of the gearbox.

 

Bernie j.

Edited December 27, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

While the humour of this little piece stolen from the Renault Freres UK magazine may go over the head of many looking at this, I will post it in the hope that it may appeal to some readers of a certain age.

I felt that it was worth sharing.

 

Bernie j.

 

You will need to "click" on the photo to bring it up to size.

 

When I showed it to my elder sister and suggested that she may like to share it some of her "facebook
friends" she replied with a completely straight face. "None of my friends own large dogs".

Another reason why I have never bothered with "facebook"!

Edited December 28, 2015 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

Bernie, in the last issue of "Automotive engineer" published in England, there is a"Milestones" feature. This time, it's about drum brakes; it seems that the basic concept from the brakes drums was invented/developped by Louis Renault who is noted as a prolific inventor. He was also a race driver!

There ist somebody else who can almots be compared: Louis Chevrolet but more about the racing than inventions.

[Larry Schramm]

David Buick and the overhead valve head would be a major contribution of the era when most valves were in the block.

[oldcar]

Thank you Roger & Larry.

Here we are again at the start of another year. In your post Roger you mention "milestones" , this year is to be a Milestone Year for me but more of that later.

Best wishes for a great 2016 to all,

Bernie j.

[oldcar]

The more you look the less you see! One small step at a time I am learning more and more about the Renault brake servo.....

It seems that the servo on the 1929 MonaSix/Stella is unique to that model. Due to the  complete lack of parts or information the servo on my car has been modified to permit the brakes to work by by-passing the servo. I am collecting a pile of service sheets etc on every other model but almost nothing on the 1929 model. Hopefully at some time in the not too distant future something will turn up.

In the meantime I will now start work on the engine having the new valve guides and valves fitted as a starting point.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

The attached photo shows cylinder block and the box containing 12 new valves and twelve new valve guides. The guides need to be machined to fit and the valves will require shortening slightly. Rather than split collets the valve stems need to be cross drilled to receive a hardened cross pin to retain the valve spring. First task is to remove all the head studs. There are three or four broken studs that attach the water gallery on the side of the block, these will have to be drilled out and the threads cleaned up.

 

Bj.

Edited January 5, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

 First task is to remove all the head studs. 

 No sooner said than done! All the studs came out cleanly, after a dose of penetrating oil. There is always some concern that one will break but my stud remover used in conjunction with a torque wrench keeps this to a minimum. The studs wil now be wire brushed and coated with light oil prior to putting them away safely until needed. Once I have sorted out the original domed head nuts they can be put aside to go to the platers.

 

Bj.

Edited January 6, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Having made a New Year's resolution and the holidays officially over work has re-commenced on the Renault with the running board/tool lockers being next item on the agenda. These still need some detail work, latches fitted and some sort of prop for the lids worked out. Finally another coat of paint.

Bj.

Edited January 7, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Having made my New Year's resolution and the holidays officially over, work has re-commenced on the Renault with the running board/tool lockers being next item on the agenda. These still need some detail work, latches fitted and some sort of prop for the lids worked out, then another coat of paint.

Bj.

Edited January 7, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Reluctant to be doing too much outside in 35-40 degree C heat I have been doing some more research on the RAG Forum. I have managed to prove (to myself) that my Renault was/is a Monastella the up-market version of the RY1 model. The brake servo being the main(mechanical)difference any other changes being cosmetic. Looking into the list of known surviving cars, these show just two other known surviving 1929 Monastella. The gallery of mainly pre-WW2 photographs show three or four other 1929 cars fitted with the tell-tale Stella (star) on the front of the bonnet(hood). It also confirms that 1929 was the final year of the rear mounted radiator and the Monastella of that year the only model to use the particular "servo" as fitted to my car. There must have been several of these cars broken up in France over the post war years but the chances of finding the servo parts that I require must be very slim. For anybody living outside France and unable to speak fluent French the possibility is even further reduced to very near nil. Right now, for me, the cost of a return air fare from Australia to France is totally prohibitive. The way the servo brake system is set up, to attempt to drive the car with the servo made in-operative would be similar to driving a modern car with power brakes/steering with the engine turned off!

Do I stop the project now and scrap the car or do I go on working, spending more time and money on it in the hope that something may turn up ?????????????

Looking at the attached illustration from the Renault 1929 Monastella hand book I am completely baffled as to how the servo could work. Pressing on the foot brake pedal exerts pull on the chain but as it is shown with equal pull applied to both ends of the chain. Oops, sorry pressing on the pedal allows the chain to go slack. The more you depress the pedal the slacker the chain becomes!

Can anyone offer an explanation?

Edited January 13, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[dalef62]

Hummmmm. That is quite the question Bernie! And like you the servo confuses me too.

[dictator27]

Bernie

 

The brake servo is probably Louis Renault's "I can do it myself" version of the servo unit originally invented by Hispano Suiza in 1919 and also used under licence by Rolls Royce from about 1922 to the 1960's.  By putting "Hispano Suiza brake servo"  into Google search I found illustrations of both the HS and RR versions at www.curbsideclassic.com.   Maybe (just maybe  )They might help to clear up some of the muddy water being encountered here. 

 

Terry

Edited January 15, 2016 by dictator27 (see edit history)

[oldcar]

What I now need to ascertain is which if any other 1929 Renaults used the same brake servo. This may be my only chance of finding the parts I need.

Bj.

[pacerman]

Recently posted on Youtube:

 

 

Joe

[JV Puleo]

Hi Bernie,

I've worked on the RR servos and, superficially at least, they look nothing like this one. Is it missing entirely? I can't see making one from scratch but perhaps if it is mostly there, the missing parts can be made. They may not be overly complicated but it could be more difficult to find out what they looked like than it would be to make them. As a last resort, could you use some sort of hydraulic system or vacuum booster? Its late enough so that those ideas were current at the time so it could even be made to look like they were an original modification. The RR (and I suspect the Hispano) system used a small clutch applied by the movement of rods connected to a cam. This one looks to be exactly the opposite, as if loosening the chain allows a spring to apply pressure to the clutch faces. I'm not sure how that would work so I wish I could just drop by and take a look — a little difficult from half-way around the world.

 

Joe P

[Stude17]

I would suggest that the top linkage from the brake pedal operates a clutch mechanism that locks the drive from the gearbox to the chain sprocket..  The chain mechanism is to allow servo assistance in forward and reverse gears.  The details of the schematics would be helpful.

[oldcar]

Hello Joe

Good to hear from you and have your input. I am trying to find a drawing for the next years version. It has a small clutch engaged by a screw arrangement activated by one of the levers that are missing from my car.

I seem to offended the entire RAG Forum as I get absolutely no replies to any of my pleas for parts/information. I cannot believe this is just because of my bad French.

At least one looks in here from time to time. I had thought that he was a friend but even he simply ignores all my e-mails. Unfortunately the British Renault Freres Club (I am a member UK£20 per year)are mainly interested in the early pre 1920 cars and while they have sent me some useful(Handbook)material none of their members own a 1929 Monasix/stella. Unfortunately none of the drawings are sufficiently explicit to enable me to make the missing parts.

The other problem that has just raised its ugly head is that the holes in the cylinder block for the valve guides are different in as much that the exhaust valve guides have an o/d about 1mm larger diam that the inlet. Having bought 12 new valves and guides I can now throw half of the guides in the scrap bin and start making some new ones. The thought that they would be different had not even entered my head until I started to install the new ones.

I can understand why I did not have any takers when I offered to GIVE it (the Renault) to anyone who would take it away. I have probably spent well over $20,000 so far and I am silly enough not to be ready to scrap the whole project.

The way it is going I can see the cost of the finished "restoration" being around $150,000 and then still not being unable to sell it for even a tiny fraction of that.

Who said "You do not have to be mad" ?

Bj

Edited January 18, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

The details of the schematics would be helpful.

Thank you Stude 17, There would not be a problem if I could only find some drawings even a little better than the rather confusing hand book illustrations I have. At least then I could discover what and how much is missing.

Bj

Edited January 18, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Oops!

Edited January 18, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Might it be patented?

[oldcar]

Hello Spinneyhill

There are a number of 1920s Renaults in New Zealand do you happen to know any of the owners?

It is quite possible that Louis Renault took out patents on all his "inventions",

I have no idea how you would find your way through the French Patents office.

Bj

Edited January 19, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Hello Bernie,

I did, but he died a few years ago. He restored a late 20s sedan. Beautiful job. I don't know where it is now.

 

If Louis had any sense he would have patented it in the US as well and those are available online. In two minutes I found two: Driving and speed-changing mechanism for motor-vehicles.US 660924 A (1899) and SUSPENSION DEVICE FOR CATERPILLAR VEHICLES US 1336832 A (1917), invented by S Fuch and Louis was the assignee. I did a search for Louis Renault in FreePatentsOnLine and got 1812 hits. The first 50 are in German, so you will need patience!

[Spinneyhill]

How about this one?

 

US1742788A-1.pdf

 

This one is for a hydraulic version:

US2145373A.pdf

 

You might also like to look at US1604320 Operating device for the braking of motor-driven vehicles.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Thank you Spinneyhill

The first PDF shows the principle of the one used on my car, so at least I know how it is meant to work.

Before I can make mine work I still need to make some of the levers etc so some actual dimensions would be of help but at least now I have something to work on.

Bj.

[pacerman]

Bernie,

 

I did a google search and found an article from a book comparing the patents (in volume) issued to both Louis Renault and the Citroen brand.  The article said, if I recall correctly, that Renault was issued 792 patents in the time period from right after the turn of the century until 1941.  The French Patent and Trademark office did not seem to offer access to those patents in an online database, but perhaps you could contact them or a French speaking contact in France could do the heavy lifting for you.   Good Luck.  Joe

[oldcar]

Hello Joe

Thank you for your interest, The PDF File that Spinneyhill has sent me covers the 1924 Patent application for the Renault servo in America. It covers in some detail how the servo works but unfortunately it does not give any actual drawings of the component parts of the servo. At least I now have a very clear explanation as to how it works.

I will not add the 5 pages of written explanation but if anyone really wants it if they send me a PM with their email address I will send the PDF file to them. It is written in English. One feature of the Renault servo is that it works when travelling forward or backwards and it is possible to apply the foot brake when the car is standing still.

Bj

Edited January 20, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

Incredible what's available now on line!

[oldcar]

Hello Roger

Happy New Year if somewhat belated. While you are enjoying some nice crisp winter days we are melting in 35-40 degree C days.

The only problem with the internet is that you can spend too much time on line and not out working on your project. Having said that, without some of the detail that has turned up on line this project would have bogged down months ago. I now know far more about my Renault than would have been possible even a few years ago.

Bj.

Edited January 20, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Roger Zimmermann]

Happy New Year to you and your family!

With 35-40°C, it's not fun to work. I understand that you are more on Internet than in the workshop! As my workbench is near the computer, I'm also hanging at it when I'm not so motivated...

When you restored cars before Internet, it was not so easy to find information. I did mines between 1982 and 2000; at first it was letters, then fax or phone...

Have fun!

[Spinneyhill]

That US patent also mentions the French one, or at least the date of application. It may be possible to look up the French application, but I expect a clever translator would have been on the job so they should be essentially the same.

 

Who was Léon Saives, the inventor? I suppose he was the engineer that designed it and was working for Monsieur Renault.

[oldcar]

This is pure guesswork but I Imagine that Leon Saives was Louis Renaults agent working on his behalf in the USA. I cannot imagine Renault ever admitting that anyone but himself designed every part for all his cars.

Perhaps I am being too harsh on the man but he comes across as the original Control Freak.

I cannot imagine any competent engineer wishing to have his name associated with many of the "features" incorporated in Renault cars or things like the WW1 light tank which was designed to be so low as to be a minimum target for the emeny. The only problem was that the crew of two operated the thing whilst lying prone (on their stomachs?)

Bj.

Edited January 21, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

One of my good friends on the RAG Forum has sent me this photograph. This is exactly the servo that I am looking for. Now all I need to know is where I can find another one. Thank you Lucky.

Bj

Edited January 23, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

I now have the servo unit off my car and have a greater appreciation of both how it works and what is missing. Unfortunately among the missing parts are the drive pinion and almost all the clutch components plus the main two levers that activate the mechanisn and transmitt the braking power to the side to side, front to back, balance/compensation arrangement. I know that all that sounds vague but without the actual parts on the bench it is impossible to fully describe them. Neither of the hand books I have or anything I can find on the internet give either photographs or drawings.Where do I go from here? I am waiting patiently to see if Depanoto will answer my e-mail. In the meantime my friends on the RAG Forum may still turn up something.

Bj.

Edited January 24, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Progress at last even if only one small hesitant step. My good friend Fossoyeur on the RAG Forum has sent me another 152 page spare parts catalogue in a PDF File. This one has a four page section devoted to the brake servo. As it is now 10.00pm Eastern Australian Summer time, I will wait until the morning to print out the relevant pages.

Bernie J

Edited January 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

I have now had time to down load the PDF file, print out the relevant pages and scan the attached illustration of the servo unit. I have the main body (215550) and input shaft (215648) and end cap/bearing (215638) but I am missing the clutch along with the levers M & L and the clutch engaging screw mechanism N. Also missing is the main drive gear R. Probably the best (and only?) option is if I can find a complete unit. According to the most recent information on the RAG forum the servo brakes were much more widely used than I had first understod.

1928 Monasix (RY type) = no servo at all

1929 Monasix and Monastella (RY1 type) = both have the servo

1930 Monasix and Monastella (RY2 type) = only the Monastella has the servo.

This must make the odds on finding one much better. I understand that it is now winter in France and not the best time to go searching for bits outside (in the snow).Having said that at least I now know that all 9090 1929 Monasix/stella and 2797 1930 Monastella, a total of 11,887 cars that left the Renault factory were supplied with this servo unit. Surely they have not all been melted down for the aluminium case (215550).

Bj.

Edited January 25, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

With this number of cars produced between 1929 and 1931 even if the Germans had collected 75% of the then ten year old cars for scrap metal, there would still be about 300 left. OK the war ended in 1945, 71 years ago, but there should still be SOME bits left lying about in rural France. Just how I go about finding them is the question.

Probably a wanted advert in the l'Vie de la Auto and the Boncoin is the most likely to succeed the big problem is in placing adverts in either without being in France.

Bj.

Edited January 26, 2016 by oldcar (see edit history)