Guest btate Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 after spending approx. $840. my brakes are not any better. new stainless lines front to back, new flex hose, new wheel cylinders, new springs, local guy baked on new shoe's ( I asked for soft shoes) and turned the drums and a rebuilt master cylinder. This car could never be able to lock up the wheels and lay down rubber. Could it be my mechanic has not adjusted the shoes to the drums properly? I do not know what to do next. Any idea's from anyone? I only drove it around the block yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I know you have gone through everything, so I would recommend tightening the star wheel first. At 12 turns out like the manual suggests, I had to lay on the brakes. At about 8-9 it was much better. My wagon has power brakes and Raybestos (hard) shoes and it stops ok, but not as well as my Special with manual brakes and softer shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Also, the new shoes I got had a light ridge at the outer and innermost sections, thus giving me about 1/2" of braking surface. I checked the wear pattern and lightly sanded the outer edges of the shoes so I got full contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 btate, pull a drum off and check for area that is making contact. I believe you will be surprised how little this is. I am guessing the turned drums are now a different arc than the shoes. If so, a couple of options. One, drive it , using the brakes a lot until they match. Best, if you can find some to do it, have the shoes arced to fit the drums. Your shoes are probably only touching the drum right about the half way point, leaving a large portion not being used. re arcing will grind the center down a bit, until more contact is made. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancemb Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Power brakes or manual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 First, don't try to lock up new brakes until they are seated, either by arcing the shoes to fit the drum like Ben suggested or by driving carefully with lots of moderate stops. Sometimes you have to readjust the shoes every 100 miles until they are stable. The service manual says to adjust until tight then back off 12 clicks. Before I had a service manual, I backed off until free which was about 6 clicks, and that still works for me. Drive a few hundred miles before getting worried.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Shoes need to settle in. For some reason, the nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packick Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Your mechanic probably knows this, but some new mechanics working on old brakes don't. There is an eccentric adjustment bolt that centers the shoes in the drum. The adjustment is explained in the shop manual. A lot of people miss this adjustment. If not adjusted right, one shoe or the other will be doing most of the work. Just thought I'd mention it in case all other suggested remedies don't seem to make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete O Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 A do it yourself way to arc the shoes to the drum is to get some medium grit sandpaper with an adhesive back. Take off your drums and shoes. Stick that sandpaper to the braking surface of the drum, press the linings on the shoes against the sandpaper, and run that shoe back and forth until you sand off the high spots on the lining, and get a full contact pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I appreciate all your help. I do not know a lot about cars but can follow instruction fairly well. I will get my manual and follow it to the tee and do it myself. Brakes cannot be this bad with everything being new. I really don't think it stops as good as it did before the new brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Brakes are manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 My mechanic set the tension on the shoe's I thought tight but he said when we let the car off rack will loosen some. I know the back wheels really seemed tight. I remember he asked me if I had the invoice to identify which wheel cylinder goes where and then he said he can go by the angle of the line coming in. I just read in the manual that the front cylinder's are a little larger. He also told me to really hit the brakes hard a few times as it will help match the shoes to the drum. My mechanic is really good but may be a little short on brakes. Could he have gotten the primary shoe reversed from the secondary. Is the hold down spring and clip what centers the shoe in the drum? I may get on the phone Monday and see if I can find an experienced mechanic in maybe his 70's. I am not sure I want to do the work myself. I also think the pins used at the hold down springs are different lengths. I noticed the heads had numbers on them. My brakes are actually not as good as what I had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Before you take it apart, drive it some (if you feel that you can do it safely) and it will probably improve. If not then you will have established a wear pattern that will tell you what needs to be corrected.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Willie, seems to me, the brakes would not be worse than what I had. The drums were not in good shape before the shop turned them. Now, I can barely hold the car while idling and in gear with all the new stuff. This just does not make sense to me. If that was the way it was in 1955 when people repaired their brakes, then there was a lot of wrecks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Doesn't make sense to me either. Does it stop better or worse in reverse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) Willie, seems to me, the brakes would not be worse than what I had. The drums were not in good shape before the shop turned them. Now, I can barely hold the car while idling and in gear with all the new stuff. This just does not make sense to me. If that was the way it was in 1955 when people repaired their brakes, then there was a lot of wrecks.No, No - Something is WRONG. If everything was right with God and your foot, your car would carve your chin into your chest in a heart beat. The only difference between 1955 and today is people were not pinned to your ass end as you drove down the road like they do today.So - Let's take a look at this. Since all the parts ( everything ) are new and not faulty what could be the problem? The car stopped and started before all the drama. Hmm, most likely then either a new labor or a new parts problem, or a combination of both. What do you think, since something changed?The following is most likely the source of agitation in this brake adventure: Parts: A) If the shoes are of the cheap titanium hard material glued-on on "bonded" type instead of the proper softer material ribbit type this would only show it's ugly head once the shoes got warm to hot. Visualize a sled on snow going down hill. This may still be a potential problem down the road depending on the shoes you have but not contributing to this directly right now. Faulty master cylinder. How responsive is the pedal. Since you do not have power brakes and all components are new, the pedal should have ideally about a 1/2 of travel on the first stab of your foot at any given moment. Should not need to "pump up" to firmness but be a minimal consistent travel. Barring this, the master cylinder if a rebuilt unit is not functioning properly. Always determine if the master cylinder is extending the properly installed braking components with all springs in place before putting the wheel back on. This also tells you if the springs are on correctly & placed in their right "Orientation". They can be attached incorrectly and still look right.C) Faulty internal lining of front brake hoses. Not allowing enough psi to accommodate proper movement action.D) Faulty wheel cylinders not expanding and/or unable to expand properly and/or incorrect wheel cylinders on the front or back or both or on just one wheel.E) Wrong spring set that the guy installing just did not "catch-on" to while installing and installed any way.F) Set pins that hold the shoes up and against the inner wheel hub housing could be incorrect size and binding the shoes in their travel or one fell off while the guy installing the shoes went to text message his girl friend for the 12th time in just 3 hours or was text messaging while actually installing the brakes, All at the same time!G) Incorrect set of drums or could be over cut. Should always mic and determine proper allowances even on so-called new drums.Labor: A) Shoes reversed. Front shoes are the wide ones and the back are the narrow ones. They can be installed backwards but your mechanic would have to be very green and had never put on a complete set of shoes a car older then 15 years. OR The poor undeserving minimum waged guy, most likely not properly, technically trained.that works for him who actually does all his wrenching along with his fellow troops of like kind, did the actual install could be the part of the problem. The band adjustment is incorrectly set or the stop plate is not installed correctly so when the wheel goes back on the the guy inserted his flat blade screwdriver or brake blade into inner wheel hub adjustment hole was not able to fully expand the shoes correctly. This can happen even though the wheels will begin to friction-up on adjustment but later lose the tension due to this improperly installed expander plate stop.C) Evil just is. Remember there can be no over paid "Do-Gooders" without evil lurking anywhere and everywhere.So take a systematic approach to your problem when going through the needed motions of discovery and you will solve it. O.K. someone else's turn. Edited February 24, 2013 by buick man (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packick Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) I don't know if this will help you or not, but I always take pictures of my work BEFORE I begin. I do this because I have two things going against me: I am a rookie mechanic and I am old (at least that's what the government tells me) so my memory isn't what it used to be. After the brake job the car stops great! In my case two of the rear shoes were cracked (probably due to excessive heat), and the fronts were never adjusted (the adjustment wheels were all the way in). So here are the pictures I took of the brakes on my '55 Century before I did the brake job.The first picture is the left front, then the left rear, then the right front, then the right rear. Edited February 24, 2013 by packick (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 My only questions are Didn't the "mechanic" test drive the car before releasing it, and if so, why did he release it in that condition?...............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Good news, this morning I drove the car back to my workplace which is about 8 miles and now seems I have brakes. When I started out car hardly stopped but after I got off my exit, a world of difference in the brakes. I guess the fact the shoes getting hot is the difference. I hope it will continue to get better. I only have 16 miles on the brakes and few of those stops. Willie, before I started out this morning I could not see any difference in forward or reverse brakes. I appreciate most of you telling me to simply drive the car. It seems to be working. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I didn't see the posts before I responded with this morning trip. My mechanic is a fellow who comes to your place to do the restoration and only works on older cars. We both rode together with me driving when we went around the block and he asked if I was disappointed in the brakes and I said yes. I had a local shop bake on the new shoes with rivets. I was told that is all he has ever done for over 50 years. Not sure but petal travel is short---- -a guess 1/2" to 3/4" I agree with Willie regarding pictures. My mechanic is about 44 yrs old and I will say has a good memory. I personally this pictures is the right way to go. WOW! you guys really pitched in and gave me an education on brakes. Maybe this will also help others. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 54fins Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Brakes have to wear in. I'll bet they get better over time. Brand new, they never seem to grab at first, and that would apply to almost any car. However, if they don't seem to improve it would be a good idea to inspect. A little brake fluid leak or a little oil will disarm them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 The brakes are not great yet but after a few miles may get much better. The brakes have only 18 miles now and over all the car has only 99 miles on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I drove the car about 30 miles and when I stopped the driver side rear was really smoking. I am going to see if I can find a brake spoon to adjust to loose so, I can get the car back home and check all the wheel for tightness. I want to adjust brakes all the way tight and back off about 7 turns. To tighten the shoe, do I rotate the adjustment screw up or down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Try it and see......................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 I'm curious. Did you install new 1/4" stainless lines?Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick man Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) I drove the car about 30 miles and when I stopped the driver side rear was really smoking. I am going to see if I can find a brake spoon to adjust to loose so, I can get the car back home and check all the wheel for tightness. I want to adjust brakes all the way tight and back off about 7 turns. To tighten the shoe, do I rotate the adjustment screw up or down?There should be installed from the factory, an adjustment plate that prevents the starred adjustment cylinder from backing off or from being turned the opposite way easily. Just jack up the axle, pop the grease cup off of the wheel hub nut, take the pin out of the bearing nut along with the hub nut it holds and unthread from the spline and then pull entire wheel/tire right off being careful not to pull the bearing with it. Then study the adjustment cylinder between the two shoes so you get a good understanding on how this extremely simple device works. Go ahead and spin the adjusting star on the adjustment cylinder to bring the cylinder back in from it's extended setting. This brings the shoes back in toward each other and will allow for easy replace of the wheel/tire when your done. Then put the wheel/tire combo back on. Replace the spline nut. Take and spin the wheel/tire until it begins to just spin it with a little resistance per spin of the tire/wheel, then back the nut off just slightly, then put the cutter pin back in. Now, since you know which way to spin the star adjuster to make the adjustment cylinder expand out begin turning it in that direction. Spin the tire/wheel as you are doing this. What you want to hear is a eventual shh, shh, shh, shh sound as you adjust the star to expand the back shoes against the drum. If you go too far the wheel will not spin as described and stop. You have gone too tight. Then just angle your band adjustment tool or standard screwdriver so you can go back the other direction with the adjustment star. You will meet a little resistance from the anti backing adjustment plate but you can go back. Check the wheel/tire spin and you will find as you are doing this that it will spin once again. Then start spinning again and expanding with the star adjuster. The shh,shh,shh,shh sound is the result of the brake shoes making a kissing contact with the inner brake drum race. This is what you want a consistent kissing shh,shh,shh,shh as you spin the wheel/tire combo. Put the rubber cap back into the inner drum plate and you should be good to go. Do this procedure to all 4 wheels. Edited March 7, 2013 by buick man (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 You don't need to take the wheel off. Go to page 287 of the 55 Buick shop manual for procedure: move tool handle up ( if you skin your knuckles you are doing it right ) to expand the shoes.Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Thanks, I just need to get it back here from the paint shop in the morning. OK, I need to go upward with the brake spoon for say 4 or so turns just to back it off enough to get home. Can I do that with a large flat screwdriver or do I need to go by a supply house in the morning and buy a spoon?? Once I get it back here I will set it on the lift and check each wheel for tightness. I just don't want to start a fire at that wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Screwdriver should work...I like to say 4 clicks of the star wheel, not turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Thanks Willie---------to answer a question earlier about new S/S lines-----yes I installed new s/s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I wondered if the SS new lines were 1/4", as I think is the correct size, and not 3/16.Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I ordered them from "Inline" and for a 55' Buick. I am on vacation at the moment but will check when I get home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1957buickjim Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 If you ordered them from InLine Tube, they are the right size. They are spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Today I expanded the brake until wheel was very tight and then backed off 7 turns. Still poor, poor brakes. I will continue to drive and drive very carefully until the shoes wear in. That is all I know to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56buickinga Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Please forgive me if this information is not correct as Im speaking from dealing with my 56 Special and Im not familiar with 55sI went through the brakes like you did and I was having a similar issue new brakes but poor quality they were "sometimeinal" as in sometimes they did great others it was hit or miss and trying to stop a rather large Buick thats not a good thing. One thing I did was remove and inspect the "check valve" thats below the master cyliner (again Im not sure if the 55s have this) I had a piece of rust on the diaphram that would cause it to sometimes stay open which ment more travel and/or pumping of the pedal. I cleaned that rebled the brakes and then adjusted the shoes all around. The second time I did this I left the shoes a little close to the drum until they seated well. Then after about 200 miles or so I checked and re adjusted the shoes and they did well after that.Again just giving you what I found but Im not sure if it applies in your situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smartin Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 7 turns or 7 clicks on the wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Sorry, it was 7 clicks. I do not know if there a check valve involved. My brake petal is hard and no pumping required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest btate Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Today 3/19 I drove car about 4 miles. The first stop sign was scary as I didn't think I was going to stop. After the next two stop signs I notice the brakes were a little better. It is hard to find an area to drive with little traffic. I cannot believe in the 50's when a person replaced their brakes it was that dangerous. I am going to keep driving everyday and see where that gets me. Tomorrow I am going to pull the two front wheels and check to see if the shoes are in the center of the drum and if I have time will do the rear. Rears may be Thursday. I know the driver side front seems to scrub or touch only one area of the wheel. Otherwords, one side seems a bit high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Aftermarket brake replacement usually requires a break in. I have hung many brake pads in my time and driven the cars several miles before handing back to the customer. The test drive was to let the pads settle in. Best case scenario for you is the entire shoes face hitting the drum. Does the entire or a majority of the brake shoe contact the drum face? If not, do you know anyone that can grind some of the friction material off allowing more of the shoe face to contact the drum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 A do it yourself way to arc the shoes to the drum is to get some medium grit sandpaper with an adhesive back. Take off your drums and shoes. Stick that sandpaper to the braking surface of the drum, press the linings on the shoes against the sandpaper, and run that shoe back and forth until you sand off the high spots on the lining, and get a full contact pattern.I still think contact area is the problem. Do this^^^^. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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