Nailhead Engine Rebuilder

[bhclark]

Has anyone used this vendor?

Remanufactured Engines for Jeep,Mitsubishi,Mercruiser,Isuzu,Cadillac,Motorhomes,Ford,Nissan,Oldsmobile,Pontiac,Suzuki,Toyota,Lexus,Mazda,Buick

Looks like about $2200 to rebuild a long block plus shipping

Looking to have a '58 or '59 364 rebuilt.

I've read the "nailing down the nailhead" article and several engine threads on the forum here and want someone that has nailhead experience to do the work.

Any advice or referenced appreciated.

Thanks,

[BUICK RACER]

Brian, never heard of this place first of all.

Have you looked here? 'Da Nailhead

Have you talked to Ted Nagel? He's near you maybe can tell you who he uses.

There's also Carmen Faso in N. Tonawanda, NY, Russ Martin in California, Tom Telesco in CT, all but Carmen are on V8Buick. Hope that helps

There's also a couple of machine shops near me in Flint, that have been doing some work for folks, but that's 4 hours away too.

[bhclark]

I know Ted does all his own assembly work, but I do have his machine shop's name.

They are about an hour away, but close enough. Maybe I'll give them a call and see if they do the whole shebang?

I have a spare 364 of unknown condition out of a parts car and the engine in my '58 appears to need rebuilt. Can't decide whether to rebuild the parts car engine or remove the original from the '58 and rebuild it.

Would certainly be easier to rebuild the spare and then perform the swap all at once..., but then the '58 wouldn't be all original anymore.

[BUICK RACER]

Would certainly be easier to rebuild the spare and then perform the swap all at once..., but then the '58 wouldn't be all original anymore.

but if you rebuild the original engine, even though it's the original engine, it's still not original anymore, so go the easiest route, which requires time versus $$ evaluation of course!

[Mr Riviera]

I like to use a local shop if I can .Tthat way if there is a problem it can be addressed easier . I would call around to local shops and ask if they rebuild Nailheads - if they ask what a Nailhead is - call the next shop . Good Luck:cool:

[BUICK RACER]

I like to use a local shop if I can .Tthat way if there is a problem it can be addressed easier . I would call around to local shops and ask if they rebuild Nailheads - if they ask what a Nailhead is - call the next shop . Good Luck:cool:

You got that right, what's a Nailhead is the key question.

[Guest smarty]

what is so different about a nailhead than any other engine on rebuilding?

[Bill Stoneberg]

The biggest thing that is so hard is that its not a Chevy 350. Meaning they don't do them all the time. Also, if they cut the valves they can go into the water jackets if they are not careful.

[60FlatTop]

Have you really diagnosed the need for a rebuild? Buicks, especially Dynaflow ones live pretty easy lives.

And I can't think of anyone I would trust with either of my engines. I can make a list of most of the excuses for not getting the job done right just sitting here.

That $2500 bebuild budget will be a minimum. I would search high and low to find a good running used engine before I committed to a rebuild even if I had to buy a whole car.

What symptoms does your engine show? I had a customer with a very nice Hudson Commodore straight 8 who had his mind set on rebuilding the engine. I told him it wasn't necessary. Finally he stopped and turned to me. He said "Look, I don't care what you say, I'm not going to let you talk any sense into me!"

Bernie

[NTX5467]

what is so different about a nailhead than any other engine on rebuilding?

As Bill mentioned, there are some things about Nailheads that other engines . . . notably the much more common Chevy V-8 . . . have that other engines don't. It can range from a particular assembly sequence in some areas, to correctly positioning the cam bearings in their bore (oil feed hole orientations), and other things (as thinner castings in some areas). Buicks are NOT unique in this respect, either!

Perhaps Old-Tank and 5563 can also add to this conversation, as when the engine in 5563's 55 was rebuilt, it took TWO shops . . . one to do it first and the second one to "get it right". And the first one reportedly said "We can do it".

An observed problem is that the many competent auto machinists who built these engines when they were in "used cars" and new cars aren't around any more. As the Nailhead was replaced in the later half of the 1960s, that was 50 years ago and how many younger engine builders are now that old?

I strongly concur that if you can find a local machine shop that had confirmed knowledge of Buick Nailheads AND can supply some references (possibly), then going "in network" to some of the machine shops referenced can be the best way to do things . . . even if you have to invest time and gas money to drive a little farther than you might otherwise feel you need to.

Ask about >>> OEM-level parts . . . rings, bearings, seals, pistons, timing set, etc. For a stock engine, no real need to get "deep" into the high-performance area, just strong, solid, OEM-spec (as a minimum spec) parts. Ask to see the parts they normally use and the boxes they came in, respectfully, plus a short tour of their shop and how your engine would be worked on and by whom.

Since the Nailheads were built, technology and quality of machines to rebuild them have increased phenominally. In some cases, so have the quality of replacement parts, too.

But all of this needs to be positioned against an estimated amount of $$$$ to do the job.

As mentioned, if they don't understand "Nailhead", probably ought to look elsewhere.

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Ted "Wildcat65" Nagel]

Hi Brian!

I say bring it over, we can fix it.

Your suggested rebuilder is probably going to mess it up, IMHO

It's easy and fun to DIY as long as the machine work is done right.:eek:

And our dude Kevin has done at least 4 nails, including my wicked GS engine

Edited May 28, 2012 by Wildcat65 (see edit history)

[bhclark]

Thanks Ted. You better watch what you offer! My '58 either needs rings, valve work or both, plus a proper tune. She seems to drive fine short distances, but I worry about putting her on I-75 for a 25 miles ride.

The '69 needs a head gasket at a minimum. She smokes like a sailor! I drove her to the second garage and she fires right up, but I'm afraid to drive her for fear of making it worse.

My biggest problem is that I've got no trailer and my '96 Roadmaster wagon is my biggest tow vehicle. Marginal at best for the weight.

I do have AAA though!

Maybe we can figure out a good weekend or something and I can coordinate days off to see what we can do?

I'm more than willing to get greasy and dirty, but lack knowledge, equipment, and probably patience.

[old-tank]

Hi Brian!

I say bring it over, we can fix it.

Your suggested rebuilder is probably going to mess it up, IMHO

It's easy and fun to DIY as long as the machine work is done right.:eek:

And our dude Kevin has done at least 4 nails, including my wicked GS engine

There you go, problem solved! Fellow enthusiast with a good machinist in your area. If you have any specific questions or pitfalls, just ask here and all of us will try to solve. I will never again have a big rebuilder do any engine again. 40 years ago I bought one of those from NAPA (4-Star engines) it was a 51 Ford L-6. First engine had a big crack in the block. Second had one cylinder bored 0.040 vs 0.030 like the others. When I opened that engine it was filthy!

Willie

[bhclark]

My '65 401 was rebuilt by a local shop. It has performed well, leaks a bit, was painted the wrong color, isn't balanced, won't idle cold, but overall I was pleased.

The shop no longer wants to do older car work.

My current mechanic said he would work on the '58, but when I took the '59 in, he didn't even want to adjust the accelerator linkage/bend the rod for fear of breaking it, so I don't feel confident in his abilities either.

The rear pinion seal on my '59 needs done and I'm afraid I may have to tackle it myself. There are plenty of threads here on the torque tube.

I think the driver side wheel seal might need replaced too and the shop manual on that scares me! I need to start stopping in at every mom and pop looking mechanic I pass to see if they know what a torque tube is.....

Small garage, steep driveway=difficult to work on some things!

[lrlforfun]

OK Brian: My friend the transmission man told me this ....."Mitch, you could use that core you just paid $75. but you'd be much better off re-build the transmission in your vehicle" I asked, Why"? His response was simply, It's a given. You know the specific problems with the transmission and you can better identify the cause of these problems. Leave the core for a parts source." I am thinking it's no different with an engine. With the engine in your 58 you have the ability to give it an accurate compression test as well as a leak down test because it is in running and driving condition. Definitely a "known". Many re builders are babies when it comes to the fact that they want to bore everything and in reality that may not be the case. Run this info by Ted and his engine person and see what they think. Ted is also very knowledgeable in this field and I would place much value on his opinion.

Having one ready when the other comes out seems to make sense as far as a convenience thing but I'm going to go on the word of a person I think is a very good tech. You are also wise to really do your homework because there are way too many guys who will be happy to tell you exactly what you want to hear. I'm guessing a quality rebuild on that 364, assuming the core is good to be in the $4,000.-$4,500. range. Ever thought of a proven good used 57-60 364? Mitch

[Bill Stoneberg]

Brian, Check out this series of articles at webrodder.com about rebuilding the railheads. It goes into great details about what to do.

Webrodder.com - Hot Rod Tech Articles & Forum

[Bhigdog]

Nothing mysterious or special about a nail head. The block re-bores same as any other engine. Heads get re-done same as any other except for mixed messages about the advisability of hard seats. Any GOOD local machine shop should be able to give you a good block and heads. A shop manual and fairly basic tools should allow you to assemble it. All at about 1/3 the price of dropping your engine off and saying "rebuild this here thingy".......Bob

[60FlatTop]

"A shop manual and fairly basic tools should allow you to assemble it." There is a good chance that using the shop manual will put you way ahead of the typical rebuilding shop. You or I would read each paragraph carefully and take great pains to follow instructions.

It has been my experience that the more professional your service provider is, the less likely they will pay attention to detail. This includes engine rebuilders, doctors, lawyers, transmission rebuilders, engineers, exhaust pipe makers, and just about any service that may be important to a "common" person. I shudder every time I have to use a service. And they are all so ready "to make it right".

There is nothing professional about an oil change and it is harder to get even that done correctly.

Do it yourself or be ready for the endless string of excuses.

Not bitter, just tired of the same song and dance. Stop by and listen to the crappy exhaust or the whining transmission that was rebuilt last fall.

Bernie

[buick5563]

^^^What Bernie said.

[bhclark]

Brian, Check out this series of articles at webrodder.com about rebuilding the railheads. It goes into great details about what to do.

Webrodder.com - Hot Rod Tech Articles & Forum

Great link! Thanks!

[Rich Morton]

Brian,I agree with all the comments so far.Also,I looked at the website for the 1st vendor listed and if I'm reading it correctly the oldest engine they do is a 1966.,

Edited May 29, 2012 by Rich Morton (see edit history)

[Rich Morton]

Sorry,I may have jumped the gun as I see they do have older engines listed:o:o

[Restorer32]

Nothing mysterious or special about a nail head. The block re-bores same as any other engine. Heads get re-done same as any other except for mixed messages about the advisability of hard seats. Any GOOD local machine shop should be able to give you a good block and heads. A shop manual and fairly basic tools should allow you to assemble it. All at about 1/3 the price of dropping your engine off and saying "rebuild this here thingy".......Bob

Yep, have the machining done locally, read carefully and assemble the engine. Give your machine shop the recommended clearances as they likely won't have that info. Check all clearances and torques 2 or even 3 times. Keep everything operating room clean. Take your time and check each step. Check the size of every bearing and journal. Don't just go by what's written on the box the parts came in. Plastigauge everything. We always have hardened seats installed even when not warranted. They give the owner one less thing to obsess about and they are cheap and can't hurt. Use a machine shop that does lots of industrial engine rebuilds. That's the real proof of their reliability. It's not rocket science.

[Fr. Buick]

DO NOT put hardened valve seats in a Nailhead!!!

You will ruin the heads because the water passage is too close - Either the machining will break through, or a crack will develop soon into use.

The Nailhead has low spring tension in the valves, the dia is small, and the heads have very good metal - There is no need for seats regardless of the dangers in trying to install them.

[Bhigdog]

DO NOT put hardened valve seats in a Nailhead!!!

You will ruin the heads because the water passage is too close - Either the machining will break through, or a crack will develop soon into use.

The Nailhead has low spring tension in the valves, the dia is small, and the heads have very good metal - There is no need for seats regardless of the dangers in trying to install them.

Like I said, "mixed signals" vis-a-vis hard seats...............Bob

[Restorer32]

Wow, I didn't realize nailheads had such lousy castings. Must be mighty thin around the valve seats.

[old-tank]

DO NOT put hardened valve seats in a Nailhead!!!

You will ruin the heads because the water passage is too close - Either the machining will break through, or a crack will develop soon into use.

The Nailhead has low spring tension in the valves, the dia is small, and the heads have very good metal - There is no need for seats regardless of the dangers in trying to install them.

Maybe I have been lucky, there have been no issues with the 3 I have done. Exhaust valve inserts were installed not because I wanted to, but because I had to. The seats had severe recession from long hard use and repeated valve jobs over the years. You WILL have valve seat recession on unleaded gas even with the so called good metal in Buick heads. If I build another engine to charge across the country like I do now, I would not hesitate to install inserts...local easy driving, you can probably get away with it.

I did not put hardened seats in the nailhead in my 51 Ford F-1, because I will probably blow up the engine before any recession occurs:eek:. The reason I removed the original flathead v-8 from the truck was because of exhaust valve seat recession (those engines originally had hardened seats --- but not hard enough!!)

Willie

[NTX5467]

With almost any casting, there can be a "shift" in the casting sand (or similar) as the metal is poured around/into the molds. Or, perhaps, the molds weren't set "just right" or similar?

NOT to seem contrary, but for the general time the Nailheads were in production, adding hard seats (to "save" heads from the scrap pile) should have been operative. Even BEFORE leaded gas was deleted. I suspect there were also some "burnt valves" which could have caused seat erosion, too. Even "valve jobs" as the engines aged as a normal part of their existence back then. BUT I wasn't old enough to be concerned with those things, back then, either. Perhaps "more research" on my part to see what basis the expressed orientations might be? Perhaps . . . there are different heights of valve seat inserts? In general, unless there is some existing compelling information against it, I'd tend to be in favor of installing hard seats, even if the original induction hardened seats might have been factory standard equipment. At only .003" deep, one good valve job would wipe that out, I suspect.

Just some thoughts . . .

NTX5467