New member with seatbelt question - '65 Olds

[Guest Klayfish]

Hi everyone, I wanted to introduce myself and ask a quick question (or not so quick). <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

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I’m the proud new owner of a 1965 Oldsmobile Delta 88. It’s a 4 door. The original owner had it from 1965 until 2008. I bought it from the second owner. The car is nowhere near show condition, but it runs and drives really well. I bought it to use as a cruise night car, or to take the wife and kids to the local ice cream shop. <o:p></o:p>

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I came to this forum as I haven’t had many original antique cars before. I had a street rod once, and a modified Jag E-type, but never an antique car. A long time ago, I also owned a Shelby 427 Cobra replica. At the time, I became friends with a gentleman locally who also owned one. I’m so embarrassed, but I’m forgetting his last name at the moment. His first name was Bob. He owned other antique cars and was very active in antique car clubs here in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">SE Pennsylvania</st1:place>. Tragically, he was killed in an accident while driving his Cobra. Anyway, he always spoke very highly of the antique car clubs.<o:p></o:p>

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Anyway, here’s my question. My Oldsmobile only has lap belts up front, nothing in the back. I’m planning on taking my wife and 3 young kids in this car. I’m not in love with the idea of driving without seatbelts. I work in the auto insurance claims business, and have seen too many bad things from unbelted accidents. I fully understand that a 46 year old car will never be as safe as a modern car, and I don’t expect it to be. But if possible, I’d like to mount a 3 or 4 point harness. Has anyone ever done this? How would you suggest doing it in this car?<o:p></o:p>

[joe_padavano]

There should also be lap belts in the back. You may have to remove the lower rear seat cushion to find them as they may have been pushed into the gap between the seat bottom and back. Failing that, the car WILL have the attachment points for rear lap belts in the floor. There are many aftermarket companies who sell retrofit seat belts.

Shoulder belts are a different problem. They were not federally required until Jan 1, 1968. As a result, this car will not have the appropriate attachment points for the shoulder belt on the pillar or roof rail. Note that the same basic body, which was made through the 1970 model year, did eventually get shoulder belts. These were simply a separate belt that had it's own separate buckle. These were not inertial reel, three point belts. Alternately, you can also buy aftermarket three point belts with inertial reels.

The problem here is that to properly install the anchor point for either type of shoulder belt, you will need to weld the reinforcement fitting to the pillar or roof rail. Obviously this requires removing parts of the interior and will likely result in burned paint that needs to be touched up. Your call on whether or not you want to go this far.

[Guest my3buicks]

There may not be rear lapbelts??? Lapbelts were optional to a certain year in the 60's and I believe you could order only fronts and not rears. I may be way off base, but I thinking 65 was the last year before belts became standard - I know by 67 they were standard.

[Guest Klayfish]

The car has lap belts in the front only. I have a copy of the options sheet for the car, and it looks like the front belts were an option, as were the rears. I'll pull the rear seat, but the guy I bought the car from was a mid-60's GM fanatic and seemed to know his stuff. He said the same thing my3buicks just said, '65 was the last year they were optional.

I was concerned about the strength of the door pillar too. Would the same hold true for the rear seat? Wescoperformance sells a 3 point belt they say is meant for cars that didn't have them. Here's their write up on installing the anchor for the shoulder. Do you think it would be completely insufficient?

3 Point Seat Belts Installation of Shoulder Anchor Point Where Door Post Goes to Roof

They also have a 4 point harness they say mounts to the floor, but again I'd be concerned with spinal compression. Are they trying to say here that if the shoulder straps pass over the seatback (instead of resting on the shoulders), that the seat would take the downward force?

4 Point Installation Instructions

[Guest Klayfish]

Or one more question. Someone suggested getting seats that had the seatbelts integrated into them already. For example, the late '90's Chrysler Sebring convertible. I can get those from a salvage yard for $40 each. Would that work??

[MCHinson]

Klayfish,

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. If it were me, I would drive it as is. It does not sound like you plan to drive it every day. The chance of a crash is dependent on the quantity and style of driving that you do with any car. If you really want to "upgrade" the belts, it would be relatively easy to add rear lap belts. They are readily available and relatively easy to install, without major modifications. Trying to add shoulder belts to an earlier car would take a lot more work for a marginal improvement in safety in my opinion. You could also sell that car and find something similar that is a little bit later and already has the belts that you desire. Trying to install later seats from another car to achieve integrated seatbelts sounds to me like it would be a bad idea and probably unsafe, as I doubt the seat attachment would work properly. Life is not without risk. Only you can decide what level of risk you are willing to accept. Good luck.

[Rusty_OToole]

If you are concerned about safety have new webbing put in the belts, it loses its strength over the years and install rear belts.

Given the size of the car, if you have an accident with a modern car you may not even notice. Lap belts should be all you need.

[poci1957]

If you really want to "upgrade" the belts, it would be relatively easy to add rear lap belts. They are readily available and relatively easy to install, without major modifications.

Trying to add shoulder belts to an earlier car would take a lot more work for a marginal improvement in safety in my opinion. You could also sell that car and find something similar that is a little bit later and already has the belts that you desire. Trying to install later seats from another car to achieve integrated seatbelts sounds to me like it would be a bad idea

I agree with Matt on the above. If this is a big enough issue for you that you would consider swapping out the seats and changing that much character of the car then this does not seem the car for you. Cars from 1968 on have some upgraded safety equipment including dual master cylinder, collapsable steering column, shoulder belts and standard rear lap belts, so if you are uncomfortable with your car's safety I would suggest sell it and get one of those.

Putting Sebring seats in your Olds would make it undesireable to any potential buyer, so I would say do not waste any time or money on that. Good luck, Todd C

[joe_padavano]

While the front and rear belts may have been optional in 1965, the factory hard points are pre-installed in the floor on all cars. My 1962 Olds F-85 has them front and back, which made it very easy to install lap belts. As for the aftermarket shoulder belts, well, unless you have a structural analysis done on the pillar, you may only be buying the appearance of safety (kind of how TSA provides the appearance of airport security).

I've also considered the seats with integrated belts for my 66 Olds convertible. Keep in mind that these are only as good as the structural capability of the floor mounts for the seats. The factory seats bolt to the reinforced crossmembers under the floor pan. Off-brand seats may or may not line up with these.

While I share your concern for safety, I have to ask, why did you buy this car? You knew about the lack of safety features before you paid for it? Also, while you seem to be focused on the seat belts, have you considered the single-circuit drum brakes, the non-collapsible steering column, the lack of side impact beams in the doors, etc? If it were me, I'd upgrade the brakes, install lap belts, and drive carefully. Yeah, I spoke of the integrated belts for my 66, but I plan to take that car to the drag strip. It will also be driven somewhat more aggressively than a full size four-door.

[Guest Klayfish]

I have to ask, why did you buy this car? You knew about the lack of safety features before you paid for it?

Fair enough question. Yes, I completely understood the total lack of safety features on the car as compared to todays’ cars. No crush zones or air bags, single circuit drum brakes, steering column, etc… I actually work in the auto insurance claims business. I’ve been an appraiser, adjuster, manager, amongst other things. My job is working with car accidents, all day, every day. I’d say in the near 15 years I’ve been in the business, I’ve seen at least 15,000 cars that were in accidents, probably much more. So I definitely understand that a car built nearly a half century ago could never, ever come close to what a modern car is. I get it.

At the same time, I’m also a very firm believer that seat belts save lives. I’ve seen it over and over and over again. Clearly, you can't put modern safety stuff in an old car, such as air bags, and that's fine with me. We've had plenty of older cars without those things. Seat belts are a relatively “simple” thing by comparison and when done right, they do their job. Of course, even with proper belts, the Olds is still not a “safe” car. I know that. But it would be better than it is now. Lap belts are dangerous in their own right, I’d much prefer to do a shoulder harness if possible

I hope I explained it well. I tried it on another forum, and got many responses saying that I was being paranoid, too scared, should stick to minivans (which we do have actually…), etc… I don’t agree with that. My wife drives a tiny Honda Fit every day. My sunny day car is a Mazda Miata. My passion I hope to get back to is HPDE (road course racing). So it’s not that I’m trying to put everyone in a bubble. Life is risky, and s*!t happens. I wanted a cool old car to take the family to a cruise in, and found this one at a great price. I have no expectations of making this a car as crashworthy as a new Volvo, it’s an old car. But if I could put belts in it properly, it would be a great improvement, that’s all.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Klayfish (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Go for it, Klafish, D##m the naysayers!! {I know, a poor paraphrase}.

Ben

[John_Maine]

I'm pretty sure that 1966 was the first year that seat belts were required for every passenger. My parents new Impala had 6 seat belts in it. Prior to that, beginning in 1963, belts were installed in the front only. My first collector car was a '64 Impala that had front belts only. We had 3 young kids at the time, so I went to a junkyard and bought 3 sets of belts out of a mid-80's Malibu and had them installed in the Impala. Not sure how they were anchored now and maybe they weren't installed properly, but I'm sure would have worked in everything but a severe accident. At least I felt better hauling the kids around. I remember my aunt and uncle were great seat belt advocates and had belts installed in their cars and made everyone wear them. They had a '63 Buick Special with 6 belts which my uncle probably put in himself.

[ply33]

If I recall correctly, getting factory seat belts for all six seating was not an option for Plymouth in 1963. And there was some difficulty in getting factory style belts for the other seating positions, so adding matching belts to the rear seat and front middle position was going to be an issue if the car was ordered with factory belts. So my parents ordered the car without belts and then installed six identical aftermarket belts in the car so that they'd all match. I doubt that car had 100 miles on it before the belts were installed.

[Dave@Moon]

This is not so much a concern for a sedan as it would be for a pillarless hardtop car, but it is something to consider before installing any belt attachments to the roof or pillar of a car not designed for them.

The dynamics of a car in an accident are very different today than they were in 1966. Cars of that era were built to be rigid platforms with rather flexible bodies attached. When those cars crash, the body can twist & bend in unexpected ways not seen today in the age of crush zones and rigid passenger compartments. Frequently they will do so in such a manner that it changes the respective positions of the roof with the floor, especially if the car buckles in the center. (I was once in a serious accident where a '66 LTD rear-ended the '65 Olds wagon behind us, throwing it into our '66 Dodge Dart. The Olds was visibly bent up in the air about 12" at the center.)

If you should happen to have a shoulder belt attached to a non-reinforced roof section in such a wreck, it would likely be stretched and/or slackened seriously. This can easily be far more dangerous than using a lap belt. Unless you can find an engineered solution to installing more than just lap belts, I would avoid that risk. In a small collision it's easy to envision how ad-hoc 3-point belts would be better, but in a serious wreck they could easily make things much worse.

[Guest Klayfish]

Dave,

You're oh so right that cars today are built for crashes so much different than they were 40-50 years ago. Like you said, back then the idea was to use a rigid frame and a not so rigid body. I don't see too many of them at work anymore, since body on frame cars stopped years ago (except for the Crown Vic), but when I do it's amazing to see the differences. Modern cars front and rear ends fold like accordians, but that's exactly what they're designed to do. So often, we get customers who say "My car was so smashed, that other car must have been going 80mph". Well, not really, your car just did it's job...you walked away from the accident.

Anyway, in looking at the car a bit more, I'm hoping to put shoulder harnesses in the front. The door post is wider than I thought, and I think with reinforcements it should work. The rear seat I need to look at more. I pulled the back seat out yesterday, but it was 95 degrees outside, so I didn't spend much time out there. I can probably find good places to mount shoulder harnesses for both outboard passengers, but I need to install one for the middle passenger too.

[Rusty_OToole]

By law every car from 1963 on had seat belt mounts welded in at the factory, front and rear. The seat belts themselves did not become mandatory for several more years, around 1966 or 67. So you should find the mountings under the seat or right behind the seat.

This means you can safely install lap belts. When they started putting in the mounts for shoulder belts, I'm not sure. Feel around on the door posts for a bolt hole under the upholstery.

[rocketraider]

I don't think GM installed shoulder belt provision in any 1965 cars, but look on the Fisher Body data plate underhood. If there is a punchout along the top edge of it, the car would have had shoulder belt anchors installed at the Fisher Body plant. Feel along the roofrail above the doors and see if you feel a mounting plate behind the headliner fabric.

If there are no engineered mounting points for them, I think you're better off to forget about installing them. Same for rear lap belts- the pre-1965 dealer accessory rear belts left a lot to be desired IMHO as many relied on a pair of large washers to provide structural strength in the car floor, to keep the mounting bolts from pulling thru under a high-deceleration load.

[Guest]

On response number 2 Joe said this is the same body until 1970.

When a friend of mine was restoring ( not in the true sense of the word) his 66 GTO he found in the headliner the mounting hard points for the shoulder belts which would come in 1967, he installed 67 belts with no problem. 1967 Tempest "A" bodies also get dual circuit brakes, and front disc optional-those two items made it into his 66 too. We then realized 67 Tempest "A" body also has collapsible steering column and that went in too. Sad part is he would get points deducted for having these things in a points judged show.

If you were to use a three point system the problem I see is mounting the retractor. Retractors are supposed to be mounted inside the "B" pillar on a sedan or in the "B" post of a hardtop. If you cut this pillar to make room would you hurt the structure of the pillar. I would go the four point type.

[junkyardjeff]

Both of my 1965 full sized Fords only have the seat belts in the front and non in the back,I really enjoy driving my 55 Ford and 37 Chevy because I dont have to mess with the seat belts. They may be a good thing but I dont like anyone telling me I have to use them.

[Guest]

Both of my 1965 full sized Fords only have the seat belts in the front and non in the back,I really enjoy driving my 55 Ford and 37 Chevy because I dont have to mess with the seat belts. They may be a good thing but I dont like anyone telling me I have to use them.

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In 1922 my mom was five years old. My grandparents were involved in a head on with another car. My mom went through the windshield and ended up on the hood of their car. My mom had a fantastic plastic surgeon, especially for 1922 and put her face back together. I didn't know this had happened to her ( that is how good the job on her was ) until I got my drag racing licence at the age of fourteen when she told me to be careful and what happened to her.

When I was in drivers ed. the teacher would show us all the different types of crashes and photos of people who didn't buckle up. I think Klayfish realizes this from what he has said and wants to protect his family and himself. He is part of the industry and has seen these things first hand. Lets try to help him accomplish his goal by giving him the best ideas we can.

[Guest Klayfish]

Thanks, helfen. I got a few minutes last night to go outside and snap some pictures. But I didn't get a chance to upload them. When I came inside, my 7 year old was on the computer playing a game...go figure. I'll try to post them tonight or over the weekend.

Behind the seat back, there are two "Y" shaped supports. One behind where the left rear passenger would sit, one behind the right rear. They seem pretty solid. I'm wondering if I could use those as anchors for the shoulder harnesses on the left and right side. Then mount a really strong bar that goes from one Y to the other and use that as the mounting for the center seat. Like I said, I'll try to post the pics in the next day or two so you can see what I mean.

[mike brady]

Vehicle restraint systems are NOW fully engineered systems which include expert knowledge of the appropriate belt/body contact ponts which will sustain crash impact without inducing additional impacts to the human body. If you are such an expert, you have the skills to design an apprporiate system for any vehicle. If your still tempted to proceed, speak to a trama expert at your local hospital, first.

[Guest Klayfish]

Ahh, got some time to post pictures. Here they are. Like I said, those "Y"s are pretty solid. Do you think they could be used as mounts for a shoulder harness? Then mount something between them to use for the center harness? I don't know how to weld, so I'd leave it to a shop to do that.

[Dave@Moon]

Ahh, got some time to post pictures. Here they are. Like I said, those "Y"s are pretty solid. Do you think they could be used as mounts for a shoulder harness? Then mount something between them to use for the center harness? I don't know how to weld, so I'd leave it to a shop to do that.

They do look very solid, but look behind them. In a relatively mild rear collision that spare tire is going to be forced directly into the "Y". I'm not an engineer, but that is just the kind of unforseen consequence that I was talking about in my first post. Even though you are not proposing to anchor the belt to the roof, there is still the potential for serious issues. If that "Y" is split away from either side, you're going to see the shoulder belt suddenly and dramatically tighten, which would be disastrous.

Admittedly there is fairly little difference in the force that would just effect the "Y" and that which would push the spare tire through to the seat entirely anyway. So for an accident where the spare isn't forced forward the 3 point belt's protection would be much better, but there is fine edge in harder hits where it becomes a problem instead.

It's a judgment call/guess at best, with no way to measure the risk of each set of outcomes. A good lap belt in the rear seat (the front seat is a whole 'nother story) will likely do 90% of the protection of the 3-point harness, with almost no such unforeseen risks. If the risk of having the 3-point belt perform incorrectly in a hard hit is less that that for which it makes up in other events over the lap belt, you're ahead.

[Guest Klayfish]

Oops, I didn't even realize that in the picture. That spare is just an "extra" I got with the car, thrown loosely in the trunk. I have to take it out. The real spare is bolted down, I believe.

[Guest prs519]

As far as the number of injury accidents resulting from various types, it seems to me the big solid Olds is getting short changed. Sure, it lacks some proven safety features, but what about that rigid mass, which in many cases works against rapid deceleration (and injury).

Consider the following: Ceteris parabus, would you rather be the pilot of your Olds with no seat belts at all, or would you prefer to be in the other car, say a VW Rabbit with all the modern features? I believe I would prefer to be in the Olds. Just sayin.

Perry in Idaho

[Guest]

As far as the number of injury accidents resulting from various types, it seems to me the big solid Olds is getting short changed. Sure, it lacks some proven safety features, but what about that rigid mass, which in many cases works against rapid deceleration (and injury).

Consider the following: Ceteris parabus, would you rather be the pilot of your Olds with no seat belts at all, or would you prefer to be in the other car, say a VW Rabbit with all the modern features? I believe I would prefer to be in the Olds. Just sayin.

Perry in Idaho

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The VW Rabbit would have a chance, but Rabbit dosen't have all all new safety features. Let's try the the model that supersedes Rabbit that does have all the latest equipment the 2011 Golf. I'm surprised that no one hasn't brought the 2009 Chevy vs. the 1959 Chevy. You Tube crash result.

[TexRiv_63]

Klayfish,

Welcome to the forums. As you can see, many opinions here with no waiting, so I will add mine. I am a big believer in seat belts, always use them and require all riders in my vehicles to buckle up (It's the law in Texas!) That said, I do not think the addition of shoulder harnesses to a vehicle not designed for them is a good idea. Your car was marginally designed for lap belts but if the accident is severe enough the structure will be seriously compromised and a tacked on shoulder belt could do more harm than good. The only way to update a 1965 car to the safety cage standards of today is by adding a race car style roll cage and using that to hang your shoulder harnesses. Just my $.02, good luck.

[junkyardjeff]

I think there are mounting kits available that come with bolts and big washers but the hard part is finding them in a color to match if thats a concern.

[junkyardjeff]

A 71 Olds delta 88 saved my life back in late 79,if I had been in the smaller cars that were on the road back then (like my 72 AMX or my moms VW) I would have been pushing up daisies. That big Olds took the hit of a large tree at 60 or higher mph,I still think I was better off without a seat belt since the hood came in through the windshield on my side and would have taken my head off but I fell towards the driver. I am glad I dont remember the impact but waking up on the operating table was freeky enough.

As far as the number of injury accidents resulting from various types, it seems to me the big solid Olds is getting short changed. Sure, it lacks some proven safety features, but what about that rigid mass, which in many cases works against rapid deceleration (and injury).

Consider the following: Ceteris parabus, would you rather be the pilot of your Olds with no seat belts at all, or would you prefer to be in the other car, say a VW Rabbit with all the modern features? I believe I would prefer to be in the Olds. Just sayin.

Perry in Idaho

[ply33]

A 71 Olds delta 88 saved my life back in late 79,if I had been in the smaller cars that were on the road back then (like my 72 AMX or my moms VW) I would have been pushing up daisies. That big Olds took the hit of a large tree at 60 or higher mph,I still think I was better off without a seat belt since the hood came in through the windshield on my side and would have taken my head off but I fell towards the driver. I am glad I dont remember the impact but waking up on the operating table was freeky enough.

In skiing I say that trees have the right of way. Holds true for driving a car too.

Glad to hear that you came out of that one alive but I am not convinced that the size of the car made a big difference. Deceleration from 60 to 0 in 5 feet versus maybe 4 feet? Not a huge difference, so the size of the car was not a factor. (I am assuming the tree was not uprooted and moved in the collision.) The best thing for that kind of collision is a crumple zone engineered into the front of the car.

[junkyardjeff]

If I were driving the olds it would have lived on for many years,after that incident I drive where ever I go and very rarely be a passenger.

In skiing I say that trees have the right of way. Holds true for driving a car too.

Glad to hear that you came out of that one alive but I am not convinced that the size of the car made a big difference. Deceleration from 60 to 0 in 5 feet versus maybe 4 feet? Not a huge difference, so the size of the car was not a factor. (I am assuming the tree was not uprooted and moved in the collision.) The best thing for that kind of collision is a crumple zone engineered into the front of the car.

[Guest rsd9699]

I remember seeing cars wrecked in the wrecking yards of the era. The Olds is a good heavy car - I remember my 76 Olds 98 rear ending a VW that in turn rear ended a Ford LTD. The VW was a mess - The Ford and Olds only had minor scratches.

I would only worry about the other driver- you have nearly 4 tons of steel on your side but if you are hit by a 18 Wheeler or train - the bigger heaver always wins.

I rolled a 70 Chevy 1/2 ton truck in an ice storm - the cab smashed to the hood line. If I had had the seat belts on I would have been killed. Not my words - the police man's words. If it is not your time to go - then you get smarter. I have several of these trucks and installed hidden roll bars just to be safe.

Enjoy your Olds!!!!!!

Ron