Old car values soft??? I'm not seeing it!

[auburnseeker]

I keep hearing old car values are soft right now. I figured wow great time to go bargain hunting for some of the old cars I have always thought would be great to drive, Or work on as always seems to be my case.

I'm even in the financial position to maybe get one. Of course on the lower end.

Well with new Hemmings in hand that arrived Saturday (I pay extra to get it early? With priority mail)

I went through the whole book cover to cover. All sections. I likw all kinds of stuff. I skipped the Vette Mustang and Camaro section. (No real interest there)

Of the whole Book I found only a handful of ads that really caught my attention and I thought were reasonable priced for what they were. (I flipped out my Current Old Cars price guideand actually they were overpriced. Not crazy though so I figured well lets check them out anyways. The most intriguing was a 37 Buick Model 40 4 door phaeton in Good conidition. 25,000 I believe was the price. The guy told me the car sold The 24th which was 2 days earlier. The day I should have gotten my book in the first place. Delivery date on it has been anywheres from the 23 rd last month to the 3rd the Month earlier. Glad I pay for fast postage.

Same thing seems to apply on ebay and even craigslist. it seems all the reasonable (spot on book priced cars) I inquire about are or sell over book.

So where are the bargains. I spend hours surfing the web Craigslist you name it and all I seem to find are overpriced cars.

I understand the value is only what someone will pay for it.

Where are all the bargains then?

I'm lloking for a bigger Convertible for the Family pre 1961. Any ideas?

Why is the Market soft if sales seem to be so robust?

Lets hear your thoughts on this!!:confused:

[Guest Double M]

I'll have whatever he's having. Make mine a double.

[stock_steve]

What's to stop you from making an offer on a car that interests you, at a price you would feel comfortable with? All they can say is "no." Oftentimes it seems the realm of *asking prices* has little to no connection with reality...

In a tough economy, it's a buyer's market...

Edited February 28, 2011 by stock_steve (see edit history)

[Guest bofusmosby]

You first state that you are financially able to buy an old car now, but it would be on the lower end. Then you express interest in a 25K car. Geez, if thats a lower end car, then maybe you should be looking into a bottom of the barrel car like I have. I believe that good deals are out there, if you are at the right place, at the right time. Of course, this "recession" hasn't hurt everyone, expecially those who have deep pockets.

I agree with stock_steve. Make an offer on one that interests you. Remember, the worse that they can say is NO. I would rather make an offer and have it refused, than go on for many years to come wondering if the offer would have been accepted.

[joe_padavano]

Asking prices are not selling prices. Use the ebay Advanced Search function and search on completed auctions. You will find that the high priced cars do not sell, and many of those that do apparently are relisted within a couple of weeks due to some "problem" with the original buyer. Pardon my skepticism on THOSE listings.

[LINC400]

I too have heard all kinds of B.S. about low prices and have not seen it.

Cars are listed for the same amounts they have always been with more listed at ridiculous high prices. The cars are not selling, but no one is lowering prices. They just keep getting relisted with no takers. I don't see any point in asking if they would lake lower offers. If they are expecting $25,000 for a $12,000 car, they are not going to suddenly wise up when a reasonable offer is presented. It seems that if they are having financial problems, they expect ridiculous amounts for the car in order to pay off all their bills. I am not interested in paying off someone else's bills in order to get a car that can be purchased for half that price elsewhere.

[stock_steve]

I too have heard all kinds of B.S. about low prices and have not seen it.

Cars are listed for the same amounts they have always been with more listed at ridiculous high prices. The cars are not selling, but no one is lowering prices. They just keep getting relisted with no takers. I don't see any point in asking if they would lake lower offers. If they are expecting $25,000 for a $12,000 car, they are not going to suddenly wise up when a reasonable offer is presented. It seems that if they are having financial problems, they expect ridiculous amounts for the car in order to pay off all their bills. I am not interested in paying off someone else's bills in order to get a car that can be purchased for half that price elsewhere.

I definitely see your point there Linc400. There is also a possible tactic, if, say, you're really interested in a car, called "relationship building," whereby you respectfully indicate your interest in the car, and perhaps gradually, over time, can get to a point with the seller where they understand your genuine interest in the car, and willingness to purchase it at a reasonable price. I admit that the odds are stacked way against those of us who might think that an approach like this might be possible, to say nothing of the time and effort involved, with no guarantees of success. I've seen it happen though. I guess a lot of it depends on what level of genuine interest you have, and how you are able to express/demonstrate it.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

There is no such thing as cheap convertible from the '40s, '50s, or '60s that is drivable. First of all there were never that many convertibles produced and demand keeps the prices more or less up, even among the less desirable makes. A bargain convertible simply means an opportunity to be spending $15 to $20 grand over an above what the initial cost may be.

Jim

[joe_padavano]

I too have heard all kinds of B.S. about low prices and have not seen it.

Cars are listed for the same amounts they have always been with more listed at ridiculous high prices. The cars are not selling, but no one is lowering prices.

That's because they all watch Barrett Jackson auctions and think their P.O.S. is worth three times what it is. There's a 1967 442 on a small used car lot near me. It's been there for at least five years now. The price hasn't budged from $15K. It was worth maybe half of that when it was first parked there five years ago. Now the clear coat is badly peeling, rust from the patch panels is bubbling out, and the tires are flat.

In any case, the whole point about lower prices is that the cars that are SELLING have lower prices. There will always be knuckleheads asking two-three times what their junk is worth. They can feel free to keep paying the ebay listing fees. This is no different than what's been happening in the housing market. Properties (and cars) that are priced to the market sell. Those that still have unrealistic prices don't.

Not worth getting your blood pressure up over it.

[Guest Double M]

People often mistake the VALUE of their car with what they put into it. Putting $50,000 of resto work into a car that is worth $15,000 does not make it worth $50,000. In today's economy, many people are looking to recoup their spending, not sell a car. Many people regardless of the economy think that the amount they spent on a car equals their value... and those people are in for rude awakening.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

People often mistake the VALUE of their car with what they put into it. Putting $50,000 of resto work into a car that is worth $15,000 does not make it worth $50,000. In today's economy, many people are looking to recoup their spending, not sell a car. Many people regardless of the economy think that the amount they spent on a car equals their value... and those people are in for rude awakening.

That's exactly why "preserving" in many cases makes a lot more sense than restoration, and certainly more sense than overboard restorations that go beyond what a car would have been off the assembly line.

Jim

[LINC400]

I can see trying over a period of time to wear someone down on price if it is a hard to find car that you really want, and can't find another example of. But if it is a car that you can find another one of without too much difficulty, I'd say don't bother trying to reason with them on price. If they are looking to recoup the $50,000 they put into it, or get $50,000 for their bottom of the line 4 door six cylinder that needs everything because they saw a fully restored convertible with high performance V-8 special package sell for that on Barrett Jackson, they are obviously not reasonable, and trying to reason or talk sense to them will get you nowhere.

With a house that is ridiculously overpriced, there is usually a mortgage on it. They will either have to accept reality sooner or later and risk either paying 2 mortgages or foreclosure if the house doesn't sell within a certain amount of time. With an old car, many will have it sink into the mud and rot for years before lowering their price. There is nothing like foreclosure looming overhead.

So I am sure there are people getting deals on cars now, just as there have been for decades. But I still do not see any indication that all antique cars are selling for well below what they were selling for a few years ago, and there are spectacular deals everywhere as is being hyped all over the internet.

[poci1957]

Hi auburnseeker, thanks for giving us a good topic to discuss.

Taking the topic back to your search, I agree with Jim Edwards that 1950s convertibles will probably never come cheap. BUT 1950s hardtops can be found for reasonable prices, as can 1960s big convertibles. You might be surprised what a nice car you could buy in, say, a 1962-66 Buick/Olds/Pontiac convertible or also a Ford/Mercury or Mopar of the same era. As a group these are some of the best looking big cars ever, mechanical parts availability is pretty good, they are a good buy and would be lots of fun for the family. Compared to 1950s models they will often have better automatic transmissions plus power steering and brakes too. Good luck, Todd C

[auburnseeker]

I'm glad I've given you all something to discuss today. It's just something that's been working on my mind as I scan all kinds of classifieds, websites, and of course my monthly Hemmings which I also check daily on line.

My business is NOS parts so I'm always searching for them and of course get to scan all the car classifieds at the same time.

I have watched several cars run through ebay and checked the ended listings to see what they brought and wether they were a no sell. The big problem with ebay is the Reserve issue and some peoples unwillingness to reveal it or a range it's in. There are very few cars within say a 1 to 2 hour drive of me so I would really like to know what the seller has in Mind before I commit to a days worth of driving or worse yet involve getting a friend in a different part of the country to look at it. For just a chance to shoot in the dark at a price I would never pay.

I feel I'm pretty realistic here on the value of an average 40's-50's Convertible in the 20-30K range. We are not talking a #1 show car, Just a #3 driver. maybe needing TLC. But not a hack job full of Bondo. I'm not expecting to find a 57 eldorado or something as rare or valuable for that but More common cars I figured should be out there. I like Hudson's Packards as well as Ford Chevy Pontiac etc. But still where are these bargains I hear about there being all over. Are all the dealers picking them up and remarking them to Full value plus on their lots. I did notice Hemmings dealer sections seems to be busting at the seams with Cars all priced above book, No matter who's book you use.

I set my sights on a Convertible because that's just what I like. I'm not new to the old car world. I'm in my 30's and my Current stable includes a 36 Chrysler Roadster, 56 Olds Hardtop, 57 Thunderbird which needs to be moved out and a bigger convertible replace it for the family to enjoy, as well as a pair of vintage 32 Ford Hot rods (roadster and Cabriolet) All turnkey cars.

I've in the last few years had a 50 Cadillac sedan, 48 Cadillac Sedanette, 57 Chevy 4 door belair sedan in #2 condition.

Maybe all the bargains out there were the ones on my cars as I had to sell everyone for 10-20% less than honest Old Cars book value after I got them all running roadworthy detailed and ready to enjoy.

I have looked at the early 60's convertibles as well. I really don't like all the plastic and shape of the later 60's stuff. They too seem to be priced well above book. most of the early 60's ragtops I have seen have rusted floors bad paint and pitted chrome with questionable mechanics for 15,000-20,000.

Well enough rambling, I'll have more to add later.

[poci1957]

Maybe all the bargains out there were the ones on my cars as I had to sell everyone for 10-20% less than honest Old Cars book value after I got them all running roadworthy detailed and ready to enjoy.

The observation is that everything you want to buy is premium price but everything you have to sell is worth 10-20% below supposed market value?

Wait a minute, I thought I was the only one with that problem! Todd C

PS--is anything maybe available in a soft top 1957-59 Ford convertible?

[stealthbob]

I think this observation of yours has everything to do with the fact that you are looking for a convertable....

50's converts are either restored....>40k because people want to recoup their money or they are rusted out roofless and floorless field dwellers waiting for a resto. A nice original convert is truly rare...so again up goes the price.

I really want a 54 Buick Roadmaster convert but they go for triple what my hard top would be in the same condition. A nice driver hardtop would be at least 10-15 so you can do the math. A #1 drop top is getting close to 6 figures FGS!

Converts are just plain o'l pricey.....we all want them right? I know I do.

Edited March 1, 2011 by stealthbob (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

Poci1957 I'm glad to see I'm not the only one in that boat. I would gladly consider a 57-59 Ford hey even an Edsel Convertible would do. I've even been eyeballing the late 1950's Lincoln convertibles. My 57 Bird is available if anyone is looking. I even offered that up for trade plus my cash for a bigger convertible. I got a couple of offers but they were from the teens and early 20's. Not really good tour cars for the family where I live.

I've seen alot of Convertibles out there for sale but is the market only soft on ratty 4 door sedans and 2 door sedans that never had a market until the Ratrod craze came along? Not to offend anyone there are many beautiful 4 doors out there along with 2 doors of all models. I'm just referring to the ones with spray can paint jobs and fresh aluminum painted chrome. You know the types we were using for parts cars before the craze.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

It used to be if you had to sell a car you had to pay a lot just to advertise. Now you put a car online for free or a modest amount and it figures the car will be priced cheaper because there's less overhead but in reality all you get is people who don't really want to sell but if some nut comes along and offers $18,000 for my 89 Mustang with a bad trans cause it's a

"classic" and it'll be an antique in a few years,I'll sell it. They must think there's people out there looking to pay 300-500% over book. They put it on the free listing sites over and over again with never a drop in price. I just started getting Old Cars Weekly again. There's been an ad in there for years For a 31 Huppmobile convertible in good shape for $45K. A nice car but overpriced. There's a guy in Ohio with the same 4 Model As for $30-40k. Most of the other ads are "wanted" from dealers. I get Hemmings and Auto-Roundup too and it's all the same.

When I was young all my elders gave me sage advice, "It's just as easy to fall in love with a rich girl as a poor girl". The only way that would work is if the Rich girl's parents are telling her to find a poor boy. That'll never work,she's looking for an even richer boy.

[Restorer32]

Auburn, have you lowered the asking price of your NOS parts in line with the economy?

[Guest bofusmosby]

I know that this thread has to do with the price of convertibles, but I bought my car (not a convertible) 1 year ago, and for the price, I believe I got a good deal. I bought it of all places, on Ebay. I paid $4,000 for my 1937 Pontiac, which is below the low range book value. Granted, a rare car will still keep its value, but the more common cars can be had at a more reasonable price.

[auburnseeker]

I actually sell all my NOS parts on Ebay it's the only market for most of the stuff I sell. Half the stuff I buy is left overs from guys who already tried selling it at car shows. I seem to be the call before the dumpster. I start it all real cheap/reasonable. If you don't believe me just look at the buy it now items I have for sale. randyshotrods All priced probably not a whole lot more than the dealer sold some of them for 30 years ago. My philosophy with pricing is to price it right so if a guy sees it and even might remotely need it some day he buys it. I sell alot of my parts to other dealers so they must be priced right. A NOS front fender for a 1972 Chevy Impalal Caprice for $300 OBO in the GM Box. A 39-46 Panel NOS rear fender for $250 or offer. I would call all that pretty reasonable in any economy. Check my stuff out, you will see. Hey buy some of it while you are there. Then I'll have a little more for another car or atleast some more parts. I try to be realistic with everything I sell. Isn't the idea to try to sell it? Of course if you want to buy something I don't want to sell I'll guve you a crazy price if I even give one. I'll tell you I don't want to sell that right up front though. Usually I just don't give a price.

[Guest windjamer]

:)I looked at a 79 z28 last night. Its on ebay starting bid of $10,000,been there a week with no bids. I would call the car a strong #3, Owner said it has a $6000. paint job, I said the car is pretty nice,but Old car weekly says a #1 is only $7000. But its got a $6000. paint job. The paint is nice but experts say Max $7000. can we get a little closer? But its got a $6000. paint job.:eek: DO YOU GET THE PIC.??

[auburnseeker]

I saw a 40's Lincoln ragtop run through ebay and not meet reserve this last week. It hit 20,000 I think. Doesn't sound too bad except it's got no motor. A good interior but paint is failing and if you look at the chrome on the Diecast through the scuzz that is accumulating it looks to be a bit tired and pitted. Is that a good deal? Maybe I'm just unrealistic. Reserve wasn't met though and it hit atleast 20,000. The guy was getting rid of it because he wasn't going to get around to it. I believe most the cars out there are just being marketed in case an uneducated fish is looking for some bait. Just seems that way to me.

[Guest prs519]

Didn't the two Lincolns, and the Imperial Southhampton, all advertised on AACA buy/sell strike many of us as pointing towards a soft market, if not a total crises in our perceptions of reality? Did me! Also, auburnseeker, I think it may have been your good fortune that the Buick Special phaeton had already found a buyer. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I do not think the series 40 line included a phaeton In 37/38. Century a convertible coupe. But only Roadmaster a true phaeton, I think.

[auburnseeker]

Unless old cars screwed it up they do list a series 40 Phaeton for both 37 and 38. Where were the Lincolns? I must have missed them, or were they closed bodies?

[Dandy Dave]

Anything high end and desirable will always command a good price. Depression, Reccession or whatever state the nation is in. Now, if you were looking for something more common like a Yugo, you would beable to buy them by the dozen at a very resonable price.

Unless you slip on a banana peel and land in the seat of your dream car by total accident, expect to pay good money for a good car. Dandy Dave!

[Guest WEB 38]

The way gas prices are going we will soon have a double dip recession if not a depression this time and everything will bottom out. Bill

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Unless you slip on a banana peel and land in the seat of your dream car by total accident, expect to pay good money for a good car. Dandy Dave!

Very well said, Dave!!!!

[auburnseeker]

So I guess maybe the only real softness in the market is the cars that are flooding it or were bought way over value when say the muscle car craze drove car values way up just on investors speculation. Now they are either holding them or dropping them like toxic stock and moving on to the next big investment. Looks like oil in the commodities market is the hot new thing.

[joe_padavano]

So I guess maybe the only real softness in the market is the cars that are flooding it or were bought way over value when say the muscle car craze drove car values way up just on investors speculation. Now they are either holding them or dropping them like toxic stock and moving on to the next big investment.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner! This is the same thing that happens EVERY time non-automotive people "discover" old cars as an "investment". It happened in the 1980s. It happened in the 1990s. It's happening now. Why are people surprised?

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner! This is the same thing that happens EVERY time non-automotive people "discover" old cars as an "investment". It happened in the 1980s. It happened in the 1990s. It's happening now. Why are people surprised?

"Investment?"

Yes! An opportunity to invest all your spare cash in restoring and/or maintenance. Somewhere down the road when you are ready to sell you can only hope one of those folks believing in the "investment theory" are around in sufficient quantity to allow you to break even.

In the meantime enjoy busting your knuckles and making a few car shows and cruise-ins and hope the wife does not eventually conclude you are spending more time and money on the car than her.

[John_Maine]

I too have heard all kinds of B.S. about low prices and have not seen it.

Cars are listed for the same amounts they have always been with more listed at ridiculous high prices. The cars are not selling, but no one is lowering prices. They just keep getting relisted with no takers. I don't see any point in asking if they would lake lower offers. If they are expecting $25,000 for a $12,000 car, they are not going to suddenly wise up when a reasonable offer is presented. It seems that if they are having financial problems, they expect ridiculous amounts for the car in order to pay off all their bills. I am not interested in paying off someone else's bills in order to get a car that can be purchased for half that price elsewhere.

Same holds true for appraisals on houses. I don't know how many times I've explained to a client that just because he spent $40K on a garage, he's not going to get that much value on an appraisal. Around here, appraisers give $6K per bay and that's it.

I've been going to Hershey for several years. I'm going to say for at least the last three years, there has been an original '66 Galaxie 2 door hardtop in the car corral for $25K. It's nice low mile car with a discolored trunk lid and worth nowhere near what the guy is asking. Seems to me after three years or more, he'd put 2 and 2 together.

[Dave Mellor NJ]

Old Cars had some results from Arizona auctions and the prices,if they are to be believed, are still stratospheric,like $1,550,000 for a 70 hemi cuda convert but only $600,000 for a cobra. More surprising was the Packards doing better than the Deusies.

[graydog]

Auburnseeker, Hi, I have abunch of 1949 buick nos parts,sheetmetal,mech.looking to get it out of my way.call me if your interested. Thanks Ed 914-245-5683 NY

[Marty Roth]

CORRECTION - prs519 didn't think that Buick offered the Phaeton in 1937/1938

In fact they did offer the 40C in both years (Source: Seventy Years of Buick, George M. Dammann), plus my own knowledge, having ridden in these nice-driving cars.

Auburnseeker - your goal of a convertible in this era is a wise move, and eventually the right car will come along - BUT - you must be prepared to act quickly and decisively, as well as to pay a fair price - you have already arrived at that conclusion.

While I do show and judge at AACA Meets, my long-time love has been that of Touring. As you can see from the cars I drive, open cars are the way to go for pure enjoyment. Yes, we toured in sedans in our early years, but when you cruise Monument valley, the Pacific coast Highway, Yellowstone Park, the Coast of Maine the Great Smoky Mountains, Blue Ridge Parkway and Acadia Park, the Louisiana Bayous, or just about anywhere in this fantastic country, when you go top-down you just seem to be a part of the surroundings, as opposed to "Looking at it through the windshield".

Oh, we also have a "closed" car - the 1934 Buick we bought in 1995 - it is a 4-door Sedan with covered Sidemounts and a Trunk on the rack - a fantastic driver and veteran of many Glidden Tours, now nearing completion of a full restoration.

Go for the convertible !!

[auburnseeker]

I appreciate the words of encouragement. My parents always had a convertible and I grew up in the passenger seat of one on nice summer days, It was always a treat. I want my kids to experience the same thing. I've had many closed cars but have traded most of them up for ragtops. They are all just 2 seaters though. My goal is to move my 57 Tbird convertible out and get a more favorable car for a family of 4 to enjoy. I just couldn't see going from a convertible like the 57 to a closed car. it just seemed like a step backwards. My opinion of course. Gorgeous cars by the way Marty Roth.

Any members out there looking to part with a good 30's-early 1960's convertible? I have the means to buy the right car now.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Auburnseeker in thumbing through the latest HMN this weekend (which I know you get as you mentioned it at the beginning of the post) I saw 2 vehicles that made me think of this post - one '37 Buick Pheaton or convertible sedan and a '59 Lincoln convertible. I thought both of these were reasonably priced, and in nice driver or better condition. I know Tom Laferriere also had a Buick phaeton '40 or '41 that was very reasonable as well, but it may be gone. Just curious about your thoughts on these - do they fit the bill and what you think of the prices...

BTW - my point above was really that you should expect to pay pretty good prices for pretty good cars even in down times. You really need to toss out cars that seem to be artificially inflated due to a fad and some how cull out true transactions from silly prices.

Your T-bird looks really nice by the way, one of our "short list" cars but we are not quite ready to do anything just yet and keep going back and forth between upgrading to a Classic Packard or getting another toy...

Keep us posted on your success.

Edited March 7, 2011 by Steve_Mack_CT
Tom is a friend so I better spell the name right... (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

I missed the 59 Lincoln but the 37 Buick I spotted right away. It sold 3 days before I got my book. That I considered a good buy. Of course without seeing the actual car it's hard to say. I've found alot of sellers seem to think they have a #1 or #2 car when in reality it's a 3 at best. No sense in trying to reason with them though. I don't think they can get it.

I did find a decent 41 Cadillac convertible coupe recently on Maryland craigslist. Top is shreads atleast that's what the 2 tiny pieces left look like . I don't think it has been on the road in quite some time judging on the yellow whitewall tires and the owner said in his reply that it had some bondo and would be a good foundation for a restoration. his price was 54,500. That puts it in 2 territory. Another dreamer. You mentioned a 40-41 Buick convertible. Where is that listed? I'll have to pull my copy and check on the Lincoln. Thanks for that tip, You never know, Randy

[padgett]

Suspect part of your problem is "upstate New York". Place to find a nice driver on the right coast is a bit further south, at least well below Mason's and Dixon's line.

Second, if you like the T-bird but need four seats, why not look to a squarebird convertible ? A lot of the mechanicals work the same way. Might find someone who wouuld be amenible to a swap and then price is irrelevant. I would also suggest a suicide door Lincoln of the early '60s but they have more of a following.

Next, look to the repop shops and make sure that replacement parts are available, 8.25x14 tires are a bit hard to find.

Finally, the real bargains are in unrestored converibles of the 80's and 90's. Automatics, better MPG on regular, COTS parts, and a/c that works. All plusses and half your budget will buy something nice.

BTW, just took a quick scan of the local Craigslist and found this (usual disclaimers, "I know nothing, just passing along", & weasle words apply but no a/c is a hard sell here.)

ps did I mention the Amtrak Autotrain ? Brought my 66 Corvair home that way. Runs in both directions.

Edited March 8, 2011 by padgett (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

+ 1 on a '61 - '63 Lincoln convertible, maybe '64 - '65 also would be a consideration for me (another "short list car" - funy considering there are only 2 - 3 postwar cars on my list - #3 is a plain jane '64 - '66 Mustang) and probably a good trade for a little bird, but only if you want it.

PM sent on your Buick question, Auburnseeker.