Custom bodied Packards

[trimacar]

West, "History is Bunk" is a common misquote of what Henry Ford actually stated.

According to the Internet, which has some possiblity of being correct (before it, we were uninformed, with it, we're misinformed), the entire quote is:

"History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's dam is the history we made today."

I interpret this to mean what's past is past, and the only thing that matters is what we're doing at this instant, and what we'll do in the very near future........and not what you stated, that history doesn't include the human factor.....

[West Peterson]

Back to "Custom-bodied Packards."

Alex, is the 1935-37 Dietrich coupe-roadster in your Avatar a member of your family?

[Guest Oldschoolgent]

Back to "Custom-bodied Packards."

Alex, is the 1935-37 Dietrich coupe-roadster in your Avatar a member of your family?

Oh I wish it was. I just like the angle and background of the picture, and, of course, the car. It's a 1935, by the way. I snagged the pictures from an RM auto auction page, I believe. I should probably change the picture so people don't confuse me with a big-timer. haha

[Ozstatman]

On PackardInfo there's a link in Post#2 in this thread - Packard Motor Car Information - Packard 8 - 1938 by Franay [Packard Forums - Pre-War (1899-1942)] - to a Franay bodied '38. Better polish up your French skills before opening it though.

[West Peterson]

Oh I wish it was. I just like the angle and background of the picture, and, of course, the car. It's a 1935, by the way. I snagged the pictures from an RM auto auction page, I believe. I should probably change the picture so people don't confuse me with a big-timer. haha

There was no problem with you using that for your avatar. It just shows that you have "big time" taste. As you age, you'll fine-tune that taste to realize, though, that a post-1934 Packard should not be two-toned (in regard to prewar cars).

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Old School - West makes a good point, but just don't let him brainwash you regarding WWW tires. If you research that topic on this site, you will find threads that rival this one in terms of passion and length...

[Joe Block]

That is exactly the point of my editorial that will appear in the November/December issue of Antique Automobile. Henry Ford once said that "history is bunk", referring (in a nutshell) that history taught did not include the human factor.

I had an American Literature Instructor in college, who taught a course worth attending, except on Beach Fridays. He said that the earlier American culture was about the real life, contemporaneity for the times and behind the scenes reality of living way back then. he try to point out what literature was doing was saying what could be said in straight forward writing of the times. ie. what could be said in public, that what was behind the stories the true public

[Guest Oldschoolgent]

There was no problem with you using that for your avatar. It just shows that you have "big time" taste. As you age, you'll fine-tune that taste to realize, though, that a post-1934 Packard should not be two-toned (in regard to prewar cars).

Interesting. I guess I never thought about paint color too much, other than the layman's standpoint of "oh that looks nice". haha

A separate question: Was pin-striping commonly used back in the day? Or is that just something people that people have done in recent decades to make their car more pleasing to their personal tastes?

Edited November 15, 2011 by Oldschoolgent (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

In general I agree on two toning post 34 Packards, but it is a matter of taste, not that Packard didn't do it. I have a 39 12 convertible sedan in my shop now that was two toned from new and I know that the John Deere family in Moline, IL had a 38 12 limo that was dark green with black fenders. I would say that Packard did it more in 38/39 than 35 to 37. They also did a few juniors in two tone that still survive. I am also restoring a 38 12 Derham convertible that was originally two toned. The two tones worked best when they were subtle. Also in 1941 Packard added a number of two tone combinations that are nice looking and rather sporty. These worked well better because there was a beltline molding and the lighter color was used from there up.

[Guest bkazmer]

both the conventional and Clipper bodies in 1941-2 promoted two-tones, As Dave said, and therefore had clear "breaks" between the colors on mind (like the belt molding).I don't understand why the bathtubs generally used darker top colors.

Dave (or other) - hijacking question: are the "valleys in the 41-2 hood side trim/hood latch/emblem bezel piece body color or always black?

[West Peterson]

I wasn't trying to imply it wasn't done, just stating my opinion that it shouldn't have been done.

The Clipper models are a totally different matter, as are the 1940-42 traditional style cars, as long as it's not the fenders being two-toned.

[Dave Mitchell]

I wasn't trying to imply it wasn't done, just stating my opinion that it shouldn't have been done.

The Clipper models are a totally different matter, as are the 1940-42 traditional style cars, as long as it's not the fenders being two-toned.

In general I absolutely agree, especially on the 35 - 37 cars. I have been around the 39 convertible sedan quite a bit and I am used to it now and don't mind it, and since it is original I accept it more. Extreme two tones on the 38/39 cars don't look good. I just didn't want our new friend to misunderstand that it wasn't done originally. Even Packard put together some odd combinations...

[Dave Mitchell]

both the conventional and Clipper bodies in 1941-2 promoted two-tones, As Dave said, and therefore had clear "breaks" between the colors on mind (like the belt molding).I don't understand why the bathtubs generally used darker top colors.

Dave (or other) - hijacking question: are the "valleys in the 41-2 hood side trim/hood latch/emblem bezel piece body color or always black?

I have some originals with body color on them and also have seen original cars with body color. I think that black would look odd on light color car cars.

[Dave Mitchell]

Interesting. I guess I never thought about paint color too much, other than the layman's standpoint of "oh that looks nice". haha

A separate question: Was pin-striping commonly used back in the day? Or is that just something people that people have done in recent decades to make their car more pleasing to their personal tastes?

Packard would in general paint a car, especially a Twelve, any color the customer wanted, including the chassis. However, you should remember that this was limited to the colors available in automotive paints at the time. The thousands and thousands of hues that we have now are not indicative of that. One thing that is really hard to get right is an authentic color when restoring a car now. You can pick a color from a sample book and paint a 2 foot square panel and find that it looks very different, and also that it doesn't have the depth or clarity that you look for in the "old colors". A car with a good color can be worth more and one with a bad color a lot less.

Pinstriping was definitely used when these cars were new - sometimes a lot of striping. I have photos of both men and women striping cars on the Packard production line, some with brushes and some with wheels. Some of the striping was subtle and some very bold. This was in fact a carryover from the days of carraige building when the horse drawn carraiges were elaborately decorated with stripes.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I was in a barn this summer at a friend's place with an unusual '39 120; two tone darker/lighter green (top) broken at beltline and dual sidemounts. I don't think either of these features show up in my "prestige" brochure for '39 which makes me wonder if some options were only available during part of a given model year, etc. Car appeared to have never been touched, so I am assuming paint was original.

I know pinstriping was standard on many Model A Fords so the practice is at least that old on less exclusive cars, probably in keeping with adding some touches to those cars that the premium cars of the day already had.

[Guest bkazmer]

I have some originals with body color on them and also have seen original cars with body color. I think that black would look odd on light color car cars.

thanks , that's what I thought - my car was painted long ago from black to another (stock ) color. I wasn't sure if the trim was trying to look like "open through" hood vents or just not redone. I did the catwalks in body color already.

[West Peterson]

There is a completely original non-black 1941 car in the Dayton Museum. I'll check what color is being used in those areas for you. I remember back in the 1980s researching this for our own 1941, which we painted dark brown. We concluded both the catwalk and hood panel trim should be black, but I suspect it's proper either way. On the dark brown car, black looks okay.

[Guest Oldschoolgent]

Is there a way to find out, based on the VIN or something else, what color a particular car was painted originally? I am referring to prewar Packards.

To the gentlemen that were talking about restoring their own cars, or working on others': I would suspect it is very difficult to find out what color(s) your car was originally if it isn't showing the original color. What is the protocol for finding out such information? Are there old Packard resources that contain such information about their customers' purchases? Or do you just look at old paint chips and make a judgement call based on your own tastes? I suppose it differs between individuals, but it seems like many here are for strict originality (which is good, in my opinion).

[Dave Mitchell]

There are very few records from the prewar days of Packard, and you would be very lucky to find something like a dealer letter or original document which would document a particular car. There is no paint code number plate on a prewar Packard. There are a few cars around which have the original paint or a portion of it and those are valuable resources to show us what the colors really looked like on a full scale car. There are paint chips of various sizes from the period that are available - and you can find variance even in those. It is generally accepted that if you paint a car in one of the colors available for that year, no one will object. Sometimes if a car was not stripped to bare metal when it was repainted, you can sand it down and find the original color, or find places that were missed when a car was painted in the 50s or 60s etc, such as under a dash or behind a number plate or firewall insulator or in the trunk.

[Guest Packard12Man]

Dave, attaching a couple of European one off customs. Both cars are built by a coach builder in Amsterdam by the name of Schutter & Van Bakel. Hard to say if the '34 is an 1107 or 1108 chassis. Surely must have been one of the 1st applications of a sliding sun roof. Pretty neat car. Thought the '38 was somewhat unusual being a two door application on a very formal looking body. I wonder what ever become of them. Enjoy

[Dave Mitchell]

Dave, attaching a couple of European one off customs. Both cars are built by a coach builder in Amsterdam by the name of Schutter & Van Bakel. Hard to say if the '34 is an 1107 or 1108 chassis. Surely must have been one of the 1st applications of a sliding sun roof. Pretty neat car. Thought the '38 was somewhat unusual being a two door application on a very formal looking body. I wonder what ever become of them. Enjoy

Thanks for posting these - both very interesting cars. I like 38s especially so I find that one intriguing - and find the two tone fitting for this partiular body as it highlights the design and suits the European nature of it. It does look a bit more formal with the flat windshield. I hope it survives, but I don't know that it does. Hopefully someone will confirm that.

The 34 is a good looking car and I love that sunroof. I do believe that this car survives and I would like to see it in person. It looks very low for a 34. I think it is a 1108. I like sedans a lot, and often the customs have very luxurious interiors and I would like to see a photo of the inside of this car.

[Highlander160]

Wow! That 34 is stunning with really pleasing proportions. I have to say it's on the 1107 though. I'm looking at the running board length to get that. The overall looks longer because it's so low. If a sedan can be sexy, that's it. Thanks for posting, and I'd like to see more as well.

Adding some input, and a few questions.

I noticed the color discussion, and perhaps better for a new thread, but there's a few things to remember and consider on colors. If you research deep enough you will find old color books from the day. The reality is that mixing toners are still standardized to a high degree in name and shade. 1 example, Packard Blue, is all "Prussian Blue" tint and the color "binder" which is the clear it's mixed in. Some formulae have in their ingredients "two drops" of white, some only the weight or oz measure of Prussian Blue. There is still a transparent blue tint called Prussian Blue. It looks just like the Scripto blue liquid ink when you look through it in a glass bottle. The real trick is the substrate colors and getting that old lacquer look. I have a bag of tricks of my own for those effects. By and large, our new colors have a real blazing effect. What would have been refered to as bright red in the 30s or 40s would be muddy and almost brown by todays standards, again the substrate and the tone of the binder being responsible for "dirtying" the color.

As far as the trim on the 41, I too would like to know the standard. Mine are red. I also have hood trim down the side of my running boards and it fits like a glove. Looks like it's always been there too. The grille sides are always body color aren't they? And the red I'm speaking of is in the arrowhead of the side trim. If it's Clipper trim, I thought it was supposed to be silver. If it's neither, my bad...

Edited November 22, 2011 by Highlander160 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Here are a few more photos of cars in Pakistan. Ed

Edited November 24, 2011 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Packardbarry]

:eek:WOW - am i seeing a chromed hood on that '34?????

Just when u think u have seen everything. Was that the way it came from the factory?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Chromium-plated hood doors were a legitimate option, not hoods. If it had custom coachwork, anything is possible.

[edinmass]

In that part of the world "BLING" seems to be a requirement and have no limits, in the Classic Era or today. I have had quite a bit of contact with collectors in India and other countries that I would never had thought there was a collector car following. With fewer cars at hand to look at or play with, their scholarship on automotive history is very impressive. Ed

[Packardbarry]

In the back of my mind i remember a notation in a PACKARD Service Letter or like that outlines a request from a customer to chrome the hood on '40s or 50s something new car order but the factory turned him down because of their vats not being large enough.

[Packardbarry]

Friend just sent this to me

Packard: The Pride - J Fenster - Google Books

[Dave Mitchell]

The hood side panels on my 34 Cad were completely plated and then painted so that only the three very small trim strips on the hood vents were exposed. Apparently they thought that was cheaper than making separate hood trim pieces. It really makes the hood heavy as it is a long hood.

[Highlander160]

Anybody else notice how much earlier the body looks on the 34? Looks like a 31 7pass touring body. What's up with the disc wheels too? Again, they look like they were retro-fitted to a 34 chassis. The front of the car at the bumper and splash shield still looks 34.

[edinmass]

Can someone post a photo of the one off Jack Benney 12, a factory custom if I remember correctly. Thanks, Ed

[Dave Mitchell]

I know Jack Benny had a 37 Packard 12 formal sedan, but I don't think that was a custom. I think it was in Dale Fowler's collection the last I knew. What year do you think it was?

[edinmass]

I remember looking at it years ago and thought it was a factory custom. Here a cool photo I just found.

[alsancle]

Cool picture Ed. Dietrich bodied Packards are my favorites. My preference is the 32 but this one is great too!

[Mahoning63]

Here's an article on Jack Benny's '37 Twelve Formal Sedan.

I'm Thinking About It! | Hemmings Motor News

[StillOutThere]

The Spohn Carosserie in Ravensburg became known after WWII for coachbuilt custom bodies on American chassis provided by the occupying US servicemen. Created to the specifications of owner Lieutenant Arthur Cooper, this 1941 Packard has been built into a Monte Carlo roof, GM Le Sabre-like tail, with unique front end, again to the owner's taste.

This Spohn Custom was built approximately 1952-53 and first came to Huntsville, TX, then to N. Central Texas and is now under restoration in Australia. I am not aware Spohn built coachwork on any other Packard chassis.

[Dave Mitchell]

Wow that is a really wild car! Please post more photos. There is at least one more European body put on a prewar chassis after the war. Spohn did some very good looking and hgh quality bodies prewar, quite a number of which were on Maybach chassis.

[Owen_Dyneto]

There is another prewar Packard chassis with a postwar body, Marano's Vignale, a postwar one-off body by Vignale built on a pre-war "120" chassis. A well-documented car and often on display at Ralph's showroom. I've got plenty of photos of it if there is interest.

[Ozstatman]

....This Spohn Custom was built approximately 1952-53 and....is now under restoration in Australia....

Being in Australia, and Secretary of the Packard Club here, I'd be interested in contacting the owner and seeing this car. Is it possible for you to provide some contact details of the owner by PM or by email?

Email - ozstatmanATSIGNgmail.com

[edinmass]

A few more........