Angry in Pennsylvania

[Guest ktm858]

To lay the foundation my father and I own 25 antique vehicles. We are in the process of building a garage that's 35 x 64 to house a bunch of them and to have them closer to home. Yesterday we had to go to a zoning hearing to get a variance to build the garage. There was a lady that showed up that lives a block away on another street that contested the zoning. When the solicitor from the zoning board asked her if she would rather have the vehicles outside where everyone can see them or inside hidden she quickly stated that she doesn't know whats inside the garage that there could be chemicals and hazardous stuff. She is part of an ECO club that she had started and she said that the cars are all junk. One of the vehicles that she had a picture of was my Camaro which is an AACA Senior car so I highly think that's junk.

Recently her club had gone and taken pictures of peoples yards that had antique cars in them and they called the cars abandoned. She had pictures of modern vehicles and also my car trailer which are all registered and insured. They actually posted the pictures for everyone to see at the council meeting. Her goal is to remove all older vehicles from the town stating that they are junk and the town also considered having a towing company come in and remove the vehicles. Last time I knew this was America and we have a right to have a hobby! :mad:

[Restorer32]

If your building meets the zoning and permit requirements of your municipality they cannot legally prevent you from building. Each municipality has it's own standards as to what is an abandoned vehicle. If you were at a variance hearing then your proposed building does not meet local zoning requirements and the board can allow or deny depending on circumstances. Generally a variance is only granted in the presence of a "hardship" which cannot be economic and cannot be self imposed. Best of luck!

[K8096]

Welcome to the New America. This happens all over now. Your best bet is to keep everything inside at all times. If you do have stuff outside screen it with a fence or evergreens. If I were you, I would send her and her club a letter stating if she or any member of her organization steps foot on your property for any reason that legal action with ensure against them for trespassing. Copy your local police dept. on the letter. I built a 1500 sq ft garage a few years ago and had two old woman complain that my garage was going to be a "toxic fume producing working car storage facility that would lower their property value." I was 100% within the existing zoning code. $500 spent on a letter from an attroney shut them up for good. Something I've been told by folks is when you submit your building plans do not tell zoning it's for old cars. Just tell them it's for storage. It's really none of their business what you put in your garage on your private proeprty.

[K8096]

In regards to the variance, what is the max square footage allowed without a variance in your area? Another thing you can do is build the buiding to existing code and then submit to enlarge it down the road.

[Guest ktm858]

Im not sure but the variance was granted about the coverage. This ECO club was made up of kids to get involved in so the municipality can get a new recycling truck through a grant. The ring leader would send the kids into peoples yards to take pictures while she sat in her van for a quick getaway. We have spoken to an attorney and we are considering filing suit against the club and the municipality. Its like a selected enforcement deal they only picked certain people to harass.

[K8096]

That is out and out trespassing. They need to receive a letter from an attorney. I would also contact the police dept. The police can give them a warning not to enter anyone's property to take pictures without prior permission in the future. I'd contact the other property owners that you know of and go to the police as a group. There's power in numbers.

Just think, this woman is brainwashing these kids. These kids will grow up hating older cars.

[Restorer32]

I am in local government in a small town in PA also. What you describe is pretty common. In some cases old cars do become a nuisance but if they are parked on private property and do not harbor rodents or present a danger to kids by having broken glass or being perched precariously on concrete blocks or jack stands we leave them alone. The situation is much worse in developments having deed restrictions or homeowner's associations but those are civil issues out of the municipality's responsibility. If you got your variance to put up the building and there are no deed restrictions just ignore the busybodies. PA enacted a state wide building code a few years ago which the local municipality MUST enforce regardless of how stupid some parts of it are. Do you know that in PA you need a permit and an electrical inspection (about $125) to blow up an inflatable pool from WalMart if it is designed to hold 24" or more of water? Take it down for the winter and a new permit and inspection is needed the next summer.

[DAVE A]

I too am involved with local government in south eastern Pa. in a small municipality. Restorer is giving good advice. Build your building for "storage" and say nothing else. What is inside the building unless it presents a public danger is no ones business. Once you are granted your variance, it is trespassing for anyone to go on your property to look. Post your no trespassing signs and see that they are enforced. Personally, I have had no problems with my cars as long as I have them covered with a tarp. If they are covered, it is no ones business again what is under the tarp. I am on private property and there is no reason to trespass. I make sure that no one comes on the property uninvited and I enforce it when they do. Stick to your guns and ignore the idiots.

[Shop Rat]

A friend of Bill's came home from a fishing trip last year to find that his late wife's car (which he couldn't bear to part with) along with his pick-up truck had been hauled away from his property and he had to pay for the towing. He had been using them as storage areas. They were fully on his property but the neighbor complained to the police and city council, while he was away, that the vehicles "scared" her cat and she wanted them gone. So they came and took them and he could not get them back.

[MochetVelo]

I, too, got a zoning variance in my PA hometown, and brought with me some letters from neighbors endorsing my project. You are at their mercy if your plans don't conform to the codes, but I think the neighbor's approval helped my case.

Phil

[Guest billybird]

I just don't understand how planet earth made it so long without the modern day "watchdog" groups. LOL.

[padgett]

a) Most homowner's associations have an architectural review board. They are usually in need of volunteers.

Before saying what the building is, read up on the local codes. One place I lived, if a garage was over 1,000 sq ft, it was required to have commercial safety devices (fire extinguishers, exit doors, signs, etc.) but if it was a garage/workshop, that was residential.

c) A professional opinion beforehand is worth a dozen later.

[Overdrive]

A friend of Bill's came home from a fishing trip last year to find that his late wife's car (which he couldn't bear to part with) along with his pick-up truck had been hauled away from his property and he had to pay for the towing. He had been using them as storage areas. They were fully on his property but the neighbor complained to the police and city council, while he was away, that the vehicles "scared" her cat and she wanted them gone. So they came and took them and he could not get them back.

It absolutely astounds me that in some places in America this happens. The government should not be taking private property without restitution. I wish everyone had the time and money to sue city hall when things like this happen, and then they would stop. Until enough people fight it, it will continue.

[stock_steve]

It absolutely astounds me that in some places in America this happens. The government should not be taking private property without restitution...

Totally agree, but especially in this day and age, sometimes "spin" and "public perception" can trump the rule of law.

There is a growing grass roots movement in our country that desires a return to constitutional basics, so perhaps there is still some hope in the long term...

[Dynaflash8]

Here in Highlands County, Florida, it costs $1200 (used to be $800) to apply for a variance. If you don't get the variance, they keep the money. Now that will surely tamper down applications if nothing else will. Therefore, few people are dumb enough to apply for the variance and fewer get it if they do apply I'm pretty sure. It's unbelievably unfair and something stinks in Denmark when the people who can approve or deny the application are the same ones who keep the money if they deny you. I know I wasn't willing to gamble on the local pols treating me fairly. I just learned the rules and stayed within them.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Well, they don't get to keep the money, that's silly. In our town a variance hearing costs $400 which barely covers the cost of our attorney's required attendance and the stenographer, also required by law. Board members are unpaid volunteers, by law. The same people who complain that THEY can't get a variance are the ones who often complain loudest when their neighbor requests one. These rules do exist for a reason and most boards are trying to do what's best for the town, a very difficult task at times. I am all for individual rights but things like eminent domain and zoning are necessary in this day and age. Would you want a porno or fireworks outlet built beside your house thru lack of zoning? We recently installed a new sewer system. Should the 2 or 3 folks who made us use eminent domain to run lines under their property have been allowed to scuttle the entire project? Just asking.

[Peter Gariepy]

Restorer32.

A voice of reason - Thanks.

ORIGINAL poster ktm858: Did you get the variance?

[Restorer32]

I actually ran for Council 20 years ago just because my family had such a dispute regarding a building. Let me tell you, things are a bit different when looked at from the other side. We bend over backwards to accommodate residents whenever possible but there are state and county mandates that we have no control over. Let me tell you how far the BIG BROTHER thing has gone. As a municipality we can (but don't) purchase a service from a private company that will, on a monthly basis, analyze the most recent satellite pics of our Borough and report any evidence of new building activity to our Zoning Officer. Contrary to popular belief the Borough makes NO profit from zoning fees and building permits and inspections. We can, by law, only charge what it actually costs us. Different in larger metropolitan areas I'm sure but in small town USA that's how it is. We also lose money (or make maybe $10 per ticket on a good day) when we set up a speed trap. Dissatisfied with how your town is run? Stand for election, you will likely run unopposed. I spend about 20-25 hours a month on Borough business for which I am paid $100/month and no benefits, hidden or otherwise. In PA a Councilman can be paid a max of $150/month, Township officeers a bit more. I do it because I enjoy it. Even in our small town of 1500 or so it's a chore keeping up with the constant influx of new rules and regulations. Now all elected officials must be certified in Crisis Management by FEMA which requires course time, etc. OK, off my soap box.....

[Guest ktm858]

OK yesterday we went to the municipality and explained that we were putting them on notice that they need to control the lady from the ECO Club since at the zoning hearing she was commenting how she is working with the borough that they would be liable if any litigation was to take place. Within 15 minutes of the statement we had the council chairman at our house. He stated that the borough has nothing to do with the club and that they will have to talk to the solicitor and send her a letter explaining that to her. He also stated that he is happy that the garage is being built because it will bring more taxes to the borough. Then he talked about a 66 Chevrolet he had.

[Guest ktm858]

I would run for council but I am a Chief of Police for another municipality so I dont think I would be able to.

[Guest ktm858]

Peter yes we did and we are starting the process as soon as we get the paperwork from the county and the garage will be built. The garage we picked looks more like a house then a garage. Its not like the old days, now they have some very nice garages that fit in well in a neighborhood and don't stick out.

[Shop Rat]

Peter yes we did and we are starting the process as soon as we get the paperwork from the county and the garage will be built. The garage we picked looks more like a house then a garage. Its not like the old days, now they have some very nice garages that fit in well in a neighborhood and don't stick out.

Be sure and post a photo when it is built so that we can all admire it.

[Guest ktm858]

No problem I will. Thanks

[DAVE A]

I am happy to hear you went ahead with your project in spite of the opposers. The township is correct in that the differences between 2 individuals is usually not a municipal matter. You need to be dilligent in keeping an eye on the trespassers and by all means get photographs. This will allow you to pursue it legally as well as civilly(is that a word?) . Do not hesitate to involve the police at every turn. Do not take matters into your own hands as that will just get you in trouble. Make the police do their jobs by using that phone, call them every time someone trespasses. They will eventually take action.

On the subject of local municipal officials, as was said most of them are volunteers or minimally paid as was stated. I serve on 2 township boards and I receive 50 dollars a month for one of them. If you calculate the hours I use in service of the township, it works out to less than 1/2 of minimum wage. It is a thankless task. Also, as was stated, if more people get involved and help out, it makes everyones job easier. Run for election or at least, GET OUT AND VOTE!!

[Guest 1hooligan]

I am going to jump in here a give my two bits worth! Post you property no trespassing, and enforce it, tell your neighbors that are old car people to do the same. We had a similar problem here in AZ. We are in a newer subdivision, of about 150 two to 5 acre lots. Had one tennis shoe tree hugger, who was going around trespassing tring to stir up trouble, We put the Sherrif on notice, along with a signed list of homeowner who would push charges if she stepped on their land, took about a week and she went to jail. Not a peep since. Not knowing your zoning, you might want to look into a "hay" barn, pole type. Generally since the small towns dont want to fight the farmers, there maybe more liberal requirements. Put up the walls later.

[stealthbob]

Run for election or at least, GET OUT AND VOTE!!

I think that can be summed up better by saying: "Be informed and get involved".

I help my local preferred candidates for election every time one comes up...on all levels of Gov't. Be part of the process.....

Personally I never talk politics with people who don't vote...they don't get a say unless they use their right to say it

[Shop Rat]

..... You need to be dilligent in keeping an eye on the trespassers and by all means get photographs. This will allow you to pursue it legally as well as civilly(is that a word?). .....

This is a good idea to get photos of trespassers. Actress Kirstie Alley found this to be the way to get paparazzi to leave her and her kids alone. Every time she saw them outside her home she grabbed a camera and went after them. Now they don't go near her place.

[Peter Gariepy]

I am amused at the tangent this thread has gone off.

Nowhere did the original poster say that someone trespassed on his property. He only said that a nosy neighbor had taken photos of his cars. (that can be done without trespassing from the curb)

If the nosy neighbor was in fact trespassing then their very own photos would show proof of their trespassing and they could easily be prosecuted. Also, i don't know anywhere that trespassing isn't illegal.

The "end of the story" is he got his variance. That was the goal - wasn't it? So aren't you now "happy in PA?"

My two cents worth.

[Bhigdog]

I am amused at the tangent this thread has gone off.

Nowhere did the original poster say that someone trespassed on his property. He only said that a nosy neighbor had taken photos of his cars. (that can be done without trasspassing from the curb)

If the nosy neighbor was in fact trespassing then their very own photos would show proof of their trasspassing and they could easily be prosecuted. Also, i don't know anywhere that trespassing isnt illegal.

The "end of the story" is he got his variance. That was the goal - want it? So arent you now "happy in PA?"

My two cents worth.

Errrr.......Ahhhh....According to PA trespass law walking upon someone's property is not trespassing. It does not become a trespass unless the property is posted as such or the owner or agent asks the interloper to leave and he/she refuses. Simply walking through someones yard to take a pic may be rude and boorish but it's not illegal.

[R Walling]

The name to the building that you want to put up is the key.

A friend wanted to build a roof over his barbeque pit that was located in a flood plain. The building inspector would not allow him to build anything! ,,, except a "mosquito shelter" for his health of course.

The strongest misquote shelter I had ever seen, built with 3’ brick walls and 6x6’s for the roof supports. (It met the code)

[Guest mystarcollectorcar.com]

I know the feeling-I think that woman has a sister that owns the place next door to me.I've got a really nice 59 Plymouth 2 door post in my back yard and she had the bylaw guys on speed dial for 3 years.

Same thing-it was an abandoned old "Cadillac" and it wasn't covered properly,etc. etc.

It's been quite awhile since she's complained after I found out she was breaking rental rules on her property and went public.

[Shop Rat]

..... It's been quite awhile since she's complained after I found out she was breaking rental rules on her property and went public.

The work group I was in for four and a half years, E-911 addressing for New Jersey, at the phone company several years ago ran into a LOT of this very issue. And the property owners would get mad at us for it being revealed. Hey, we weren't the ones that put in rental areas, many over garages or in attics, that were against the rules. They did, but they blamed us for getting them in trouble.

[Restorer32]

In our borough our zoning officer (my brother) seldom actually looks for infractions. Your neighbor is the one who will rat on you every time, most often anonymously. What kills small towns is the conversion of single family homes into apartments by absentee landlords. Controlling that issue goes a long way towards maintaining a decent place to live.

[Guest windjamer]

An older car collecting friend lived in a rural area on several acres of land. He had maby 25-30 old cars, most in sheads,but several in the open behind the house. These could not be seen without walking behind the house. The local code inforcement officer,aptly nicknamed snake went to school with his kids and knew of the cars. Within days of being appointed he cited the man and forced him to remove all the cars in the open. The boys had no chopice but to send the cars,most of them restorable, to the crusher. :mad: IMHO this was unjust.

On a seperate note our local dirt race track was built in the late 40s- early 50s. New people moved in near and tryed to shut it down,didnt like the noise and dirt. DUH!! you knew it was there, if you didnt like it why the h*ll did you move there?

[DAVE A]

The ring leader would send the kids into peoples yards to take pictures while she sat in her van for a quick getaway. .

Second post from the original poster. Trespassing.

[Bhigdog]

Second post from the original poster. Trespassing.

Not unless she was previously warned, damaged property or threatened the owner.

(b.1) Simple trespasser.--

(1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in any place for the purpose of:

(i) threatening or terrorizing the owner or occupant of the premises;

(ii) starting or causing to be started any fire upon the premises; or

(iii) defacing or damaging the premises.

(2) An offense under this subsection constitutes a summary offense.

[Shop Rat]

On a seperate note our local dirt race track was built in the late 40s- early 50s. New people moved in near and tryed to shut it down,didnt like the noise and dirt. DUH!! you knew it was there, if you didnt like it why the h*ll did you move there?

Because they figured, wrongly in this case, that their little spoiled rear-ends would get what they wanted. They were probably spoiled by their mommy and daddy growing up and always got their way.

A local lady planned and built, outside of the city limits, an entire neighborhood and riding complex for horse owners and their families. A non-horse owner, one of the spoiled type folks, moved in and tried to get the stables shut down because he didn't want to smell it or see it. Too bad for him, he lost.....and moved.

[Bill Stoneberg]

These rules do exist for a reason and most boards are trying to do what's best for the town, a very difficult task at times. I am all for individual rights but things like eminent domain and zoning are necessary in this day and age. Would you want a porno or fireworks outlet built beside your house thru lack of zoning?

If you want a good example of what NO zoning can look like, check out Houston. A 20 story condo built on 3 lots in a middle of a residential neighborhood, a strip club built on the fringes of a upper class section of homes and a 7 - 11 / gas station on every corner. Dont even mention the fireworks stands that pop up around the 4th of July and New years. If you have space for a trailer and are just outside the city limits, you can make 2-3,000 bucks for renting your parking lot.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Bill Stoneberg (see edit history)

[Paul Dobbin]

Interesting Thread.

Now it's 31 years ago that I went through all this crap with variances.

First I got everyone who owned property within 500 feet of mine to sign a variance request (one of the ways to get one). The Board of Adjustment denied me because "somebody who moved in later might not like it".

I changed the location an applied again and got approval. Then after 25 years

we got a new neighbor who asked about my "Barn" and I told him that I loved it because it was so well hidden that "nobody knew it was back there".

The code enforcement people came and said they'd been told I had an illegal building. I told them to "check the variances and building permits for 1979 and they would fund everything on the property was permitted. If you come back you better know what you're talking about", Never saw them again.

The new neighbor moved and I have nice people next door again.

Moral: Know the rules and stick to them, fight back if you are right. There are people out there whose exhaust port dominates their brain.

[Guest windjamer]

Paul, I LOVE our ending statement. Laugh till my stumich hurt.