5 years later and the new owner never transfered the title. Now what?

[Peter Gariepy]

I was at the DMV today to get a lost title on a car I own.

She asked me for what car i wanted the title, she then proceeded the list off what cars I owned according to the state. One of the vehicles I sold 5 YEARS ago! I chose to have her print both titles.

So... what kind of liability am I under? The car technically belongs to me, but is in the possession of someone else who bought it.

Any feedback?

[addicted to cars]

I was told it is the sellers responsibilty in Utah to notify the DMV after selling the car, my sister gave a car to the kidney foundation, months later it was found abandoned in Las Vegas, it was still titled in her name, the police dept called her and told her it needed to be picked up/moved and she was responsible for it even though she had given it to someone else.

[Peter Gariepy]

Let me add one more snippet of info, the car in question is a valuable (5 figure) antique automobile. When it was sold I understood it was to be transported to another state and put into someone's private collection, but i dont have a clue as it's its current status. For all i know it's been sold again.

[keiser31]

Here in Oregon, a seller must send in a "Transfer of Title" form of some sort to let the state know that it was sold and you are no longer obligated in any way to that vehicle.

[Guest chuick]

Hi Peter,<O:p</O:p

I was reading the AACA forums and seen your article about the title you got for the car you sold. At this point the title you have is the only one the State of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com</st1:State><ST1:pArizona</ST1:p will accept. The old title for that car is no longer valid. I lost a title and got a duplicate then found the lost one so called the MVD to find out what to do. They told me that the duplicate title was the only one that was valid. I see the Tucson<ST1:p</ST1:p region will be hosting the spring meet. I am going to try and make this one as the 1931 Chevrolet is running, driving and almost ready to start using it again after the weather cools off.<O:p</O:p

Chuck

[Marty Roth]

Peter,

While interesting, many of the above seem not to zero in on your specific concern.

As a former software specialist, I believe that your technical background leads you to retain paperwork. As such, you probably have a copy of the signed/(notarized?) title and/or bill-of-sale in your stacks of papers (on the left-back-corner of your desk?). If not, go to a Notary and make an affadavit to the sale of vehicle with VIN, description, and date (or approximation), and to whom if you can remember. Present photocopies of all documentation to your State DMV and ask them to document that the vehicle is NO LONGER in your possession, and has not been for that time. This should relieve you of potential liability.

I have had this happen to me on THREE (3) prior occasions - some collectors are just lazy about paperwork; some do not register a car because of the property tax (Louisiana requires a 9% to 10% sales tax (depending upon location) even on used and antique cars, no matter how many times they are re-sold); some re-transfer as a dealer. there can be many "explanations".

I have a dear friend with whom I have swapped many cars --- three cars I got from him were never in his name.

Notify your DMV to protect your assets.

Good luck,

Marty

[MCHinson]

Peter,

The purpose of a title is to prove valid ownership. In your case, you transfered the title to the new owner. Hopefully, you have documentation of the facts, i.e., date of sale, buyer, price, etc....

The fact that the new owner failed to title the car in your state means that your State DMV records show you as the last owner. If the vehicle was titled in another state, the correct ownership would be shown in that state's DMV records. There is no process to notify the prior state's DMV to update their records.

I suspect that your state has a system similar to what we have here in NC. Here the DMV has an affidavit that you can fill out to show who and when you sold a car so that they can remove it from your state's DMV files.

You sold the car. You do not own it. You have no liability for it. No state law can change these facts regarding civil liability. You do not need to worry about it. You could ask your DMV if there is an affidavit to fill out to remove your name as the owner of the car in their files if it would make you feel better.

[Marty Roth]

Peter,

The most current Louisiana Titles have a rear-off section, requiring the SELLER to notify the Department of Public Safety, Office of Motor Vehicles - to avoid just the kind of circumstance you describe.

With all deference to Matt's comment, if the vehicle were involved in the commission of a crime, or in a vehicular homicide/crash/at-fault accident, etc., then you have to go back and PROVE that you don't own it -- still titled in your name / possibly with your license plate --

You probably should do what you can to document that you do not own it.

[MCHinson]

Marty,

If Peter allowed his license plates to go with the car, that might infer some limited liablity, I assume he did not do that. I trust that he knew to remove his license plate from the car and turn it in to DMV. I would be willing to bet that the car was titled in another state and there is no problem.

I have a lengthy list of vehicles that the state of NC thinks that I own. I just never bothered to fill out the affidavit to remove them from DMV files. I can show where most of them are currently titled in other states. One of them was junked years ago, and one of them, is still in NC and is being restored and the current owner has not yet obtained a new title (he should have). As long as you have documentation that you sold the car, you have no need to worry about liability for the car.

[Marty Roth]

Matt,

We both agree on the need to keep documentation.

In some states, the license plate stays with the car -- that used to be the case in Louisiana, and (I think) in Indiana when we lived there. When you signed over the title, the plate became registered to the new owner, but some folks just never bothered to go to DMV.

When New Jersey contacted me because a Junk-yard car with a body in the trunk bore the expired State Motor Vehicle InspectionSticker from the MG-TC that I sold years earlier, I first explained that the vehicle-in-question was not my MG, and that a "TC" didn't even have a trunk. Somebody used my Inspection sticker , and probably some stolen license plates, likely in the commission of a crime. Thankfully, my documentation was complete.

Another car I sold cheap to the kid who worked in the local gas station was found running, with the front doors open, bloody, on a lonely road outside of Panama City Beach, Florida. Back then, Louisiana kept the plate with the car at transfer, and I didn't know that the kid had not gone to DMV. 1-1/2 years later I was advised by the PD that "my" car was in their impound lot, and for a staggering fee I could retrieve it -- not worth it !! (but they did allow me to remove parts - and I "donated" it to an officer on their force who had a similar car).

Document !!

[Guest Dean_H.]

In CA there is a 'Notice of Transfer and Release of Liability' form that the seller needs to fill out and send to DMV when selling a car.

In the past I wouldn't bother sending in the form when I sold a car, until I got burned about ten years ago. I sold a ratty old 12 foot box van for $500 to a painter (he said he was a painter). A few days later he filled the entire cargo box full of old paint and abandoned the vehicle on the side of the road. A city police officer came to my house. It took a lot of explaining. Two more officers came for a second visit, they were not happy but didn't site me.

I now send in the release form when I sell a car. :-)

[Bhigdog]

The last two cars I bought had "open" titles. In other words the guys I bought them from had never transfered the title from whom they bought the car. Both titles were from out of state, one of them was AZ. I think with old cars it's a common problem. I sold a 49 Chevy to some guy from Ohio and forgot to take my plate off of it. I thought of it about 3 months later and called him about it. He said he was "using" it because he hadn't titled or insured the car yet. It took me about 5 calls and threats before he returned the plate to me. If I were you I would do whatever it took to get your name off the car............Bob

[addicted to cars]

David Field, in your infinite wisdom, thank you for telling me that my SISTERS, (not a friend of a friend of my sister!!) experience is weak and sounds like an urban legend, I was there the day the Las Vegas police dept called, and whether or not you believe it is irrelevant!! I am just letting Peter know that he may still be liable for the car if it is still legally titled in his name

[Marty Roth]

I said it before, and I'll say it again:

1. Get the signatures on the title and a Bill-of-Sale

2. Get all paperwork Notarized, even if your DMV does not necessarily rrequire it (ours does)

3. Do it in Duplicate

4. Keep copies (you can keep them in the same drawer or file folder as your income tax records.

5. Get on with your life - drive your old car to take a kid to a car show, or for ice cream like we did today

[MCHinson]

addicted to cars,

I don't discount that story at all. The only caveat that I would add is this.... I have been in law enforcement for almost 30 years. As long as he has documentation that he sold it, he is not responsible.

Like your family member found out, That would not prevent some officer from calling and wanting him to do something with the car if their database showed him as the owner. While, I believe that most officers are usually right, and deserve the benefit of the doubt, they do not always have all of the facts available when they initially contact someone about an incident such as this.

Like Marty said. Keep your documentation and you will have no problems. The truth will set you free...

[Dynaflash8]

Yes, this is a problem in some states, including FLORIDA, yuck! I lived in Maryland and Virginia most of my life, and this was not a problem. All you had to do was tell them you sold the car and they took it out of your name. In Virginia they had a tear-off slip on the bottom of the title so you could send it in yourself. Here in Florida they don't think any car is ever sold out of state. The DMV here is impossible. Like you, I just found that I still have a title registered for a 1935 Buick I sold 3-4 years ago. These people will not take it out of my name because the next owners never transferred it. You have to make the buyer go to the DMV here and get a new title to get it out of your name, which is of course impossible if it's sold out of state. I sold the '35 to a guy in the next town, thinking he was a collector, when in fact he was a curb stoner. He took it to Zephyr Hills auction and sold it to a dealer in Orlando. He sold it to somebody in SPAIN, and Florida still lists the title to me. I asked the woman to remove it, as I'd done many times in Maryland and Virginia and she said the computer wouldn't let her. She did say she was able to put "SOLD" into the record, and I guess she was telling the truth; who knows? By the way, Florida just raised tag rates and all related costs by 65% or more as of September 1. They may not have State Income tax here, but they make up for it with all kinds of insurance costs and all other fees.

[CarlLaFong]

There is also the possibility that there is no reciprocity between your state and the state where the new owner lives. It is possible that he did register it and his DMV did not notify your DMV, so they think you are still in possesion of the car.

[Richard Lichtfel]

Paper work-paperwork------It's like going to the bathroom, if you don't do the paperwork you will have a mess!!!

Remember, there are a lot of hungery lawyers out there that would love your car!!!

[Jim Rohn]

Peter, any car I have sold in the last 10 years I have gone online to ServiceArizona and filled out the "sold notice" form

here is the link:

https://servicearizona.com/webapp/snotice/

ez to do online and it satisfies YOUR obligation to inform the state within (whatever amount of days it is) of a change of ownership

MOST IMPORTANTLY it releases you from legal issues that may occur down the road

I too had had gotten "the call" about (in this case) unpaid parking tickets and the vehicle being double parked about a vehicle I sold, the call was from the AZ State Capital police ... the S-10 truck I had sold (maybe 15 years ago, back when the plates in AZ STAYED with the vehicle). I informed them that I HAD mailed in (before the online route was avail) the "sold notice" form (look at the back of your registration slip) and was not responsible - they agreed. The people that bought it ran some sort of document delivery service and didn't bother to transfer the paperwork ,after all it had new plates on it when they bought it ...

Edited August 24, 2009 by Jim Rohn (see edit history)

[Reatta Man]

I agree with the comments about paperwork. I've also had a car remain in my name long after I sold it. I know of at least one person who was sued after a sold car was in an accident where the driver was at fault. Guess who the personal injury lawyers came after?

Fortunately, Texas now allows sellers to remove the tags when selling a car. As for myself, if the buyer doesn't want to go to a title service and register the car at the time of purchase, I remove the tags, period. I also have two copies of the bill of sale. We both sign both copies, he has an original and so do I; no Xeroxed copies of signatures. And, I make a copy of the back of the title that shows the new owner's name and address.

Finally, if you do a LOT of car transactions, consider a personal umbrella insurance policy that will insure you against any lawsuit. They cost about $300 per year for about a $1 million policy.

Joe

[Thriller]

Wow...I never would have thought I would call registration / licensing processes in Manitoba simple, but they are compared to a lot of stuff I have read in this thread.

Here, the plates stay with the owner. So, as a purchaser, I need some sort of title or transfer of ownership document before I can register the car. Of course, the way around this is if you don't register the car (i.e. project cars or parts cars that aren't on the road). When a car is sold, there is a Transfer of Ownership Document (TOD) that goes along with the bill of sale. For future reference, should I sell a registered car (not sure why I would want to do that), I will scan or photograph the TOD to have a record of it.

[A by the sea]

Imagine selling a boat only to have the state come knocking on your door with a $60,000 fine a year later.

This actually happened to a friend in (we live in NJ). Lucky for him he got a signed receipt from the buyer.

What happened was he sold it to a friend. That friend held it for a while and sold it. The next guy wanted cause he and his friend wanted to have a race through the woods towing a boat!!! (this is not a joke)

So during the race the boat came off in a state forrest. They left it behind. The two owners never transferred the the title so the hull was still in my friends name.

My friend was lucky he had proof that he sold the vehicle and to whom. The $60,000 fine for dumping in a state forrest got passed on to the next guy. He hated to do that to a friend, but he did not have the $60,000 laying around.

The moral of the story.

NEVER sell a car (or anything they could be traced back to you) without getting a signed receipt and checking the ID of the person.

A side story...

Way back we sold a Plymouth Horizon to a girl, it was you basic $200 car. Seems her other car got impounded when a friend got arrested in Philadelphia. About a year or so later we got notice the car was going to be sold at police auction. We could get the car released for like $800. I have always wondered how much the car sold for at auction.

[GMPARTSMAN]

In the mid-70's I gave a car to a friend. A old muscle car, inoperable. He was notorious for "jumping" titles, so the only condition on the car was that him and I went to the Secretary of State and transferred it into his name.

Almost two years later, he got a letter from a nearby city and a letter from the state of Michigan regarding "his" abandonded car.

Another friend in late '69 borrowed a car from another friend that was running on a "jumped" title and incorrect plates from another car. You guesed it, it was involved in a collision with injuries. His father quickly went to the S of S and changed the plates and title that afternoon, just before they closed. Back then, registrations were posted at the end of the day, so it was not unusual for registrations to come back "not on file" one day but on the next day.

He had no insurance on any of his vehicles, just the MVACF penalty fee pain in leiu of insurance, so the driver and the owner both were liable for damages the state paid out on the claim.

[bhclark]

When I bought my '58 Chevy pickup from a guy in Kentucky, I got a 7 year old Oregon title. That probably would have been okay, but the seller in Kentucky signed it over to me, invalidating the title for my purposes of transferring in Ohio.

Luckily, the seller was able to get a duplicate title from Oregon, then had to have the truck inspected (KY and OH require VIN inspection for out of state transfers), titled, then transferred to me.

The previous owner never titled it to avoid paying the sales tax on a "project" truck.

[Guest BJM]

I am a legal processor for Wells Fargo Bank NA supporting vehicle title work 45-50 hours per week in several states.

I get involved when our bank is not on title as lien holder.

I also collect old cars and do not update my titles right away. Peter in my opinion is simply not a risk for that vehicle being used for nefarious means. It may never be re-titled again!

In the case of some celebrity cars not intended for driving, could that not add provenance to the vehicle?

Yes, it is true that if a car is filled with paint or gets traffic tickets the authorities will look to the prior registered owner to pay the fine BUT possession is 9/10's of the law.

Proving either orally or in writing that the vehicle is sold releases liability.

[Guest Mark G]

Not sure but when we sell a car here in Pa you have to have it noterized in order to be legal transaction , I think this is also to protect the seller from being resposable for the car once you sell it, BUT you must transfer the title at the same time, to just sell a car without a title if you had one for it I think is silly on your part since you would be responsible for that car till a New title was issued for it. But in some cases let's say a Model T you built from parts, You have to prove where you got the parts etc before you can get a title from the state or you can skip all that and just get one from a place like Broadway Title.

they are supposed to do the research and make sure there is not outstanding titles on that car, truck etc.

I wonder if they ever find one what happens.

Anyone know?

[boblichty]

This is simply how a lot of "hobbyists" dodge paying sales tax. They run the car around for years on your title, using plates from another car. I insurance agent tells me if the car is in your name it is still yours and your liability.

Always play it safe when selling a car, fill in the buyers information where indicated, date, sign, notorize the title, and keep copies. He will be forced to pay sales tax or sell the car without that title at least.

Some states require the title to be transfered to the buyer by a licenesed dealer. Some do not. Some states operate very loose with bill of sale only. If that is the case, make sure you make up a bill of sale to the buyer and make him sign it.

If a buyer refuses to buy your car with a "closed" title, don't sell it to him. You can bet he is going to dodge taxes and liability issues. I know in the "hobby" it has been done that way for years and especially when the buyer wants to pay in cash. But this is 2009 and libility issues are a lot tougher these days. It is not worth screwing up the rest of your life for a quick sale.

[Guest Trunk Rack]

lots of dangerous info. in here. suggest you boys go back to your law schools and demand a refund - you sure got a bad legal education.

the facts are we have MANY "states" in this country, with many different sets of laws regarding the liability of motor vehicle owners. In the states I am familiar in, and are licensed to practice law in, it is very simple. You MUST notify the state DEPT. OF MOTOR VEHICLES where the vehicle was titled, in a form many states will let you down-load off the internet, that describes to WHOM you sold the vehicle to, WHEN, and WHERE the transaction took place. Until you comply with the laws of your state regarding that disclosure, you may well be liable for ANY debts that vehicle incurs.

After you guys get a refund from those law schools that gave you such a poor education, STRONGLY RECOMMEND YOU SEEK COMPETENT LEGAL COUNSEL before giving out such dangerous advice.