Topics Locked

[LINC400]

I think that it is really pathetic that a group of people old enough to know better, cannot conduct themselves responsibly enough to have civil discussions on this forum. Several times I have spent time composing a reply without name calling, politics, or other problems, only to find that the post will not be accepted because a topic is locked. If a topic is going to be locked, then it should be announced. As well as when the site goes down for maintenence. Several times I have spent time on replies only to have them deleted when the site goes down.

I also think that there is nothing wrong with discussing differences of opinion, as long as it is done civilly.

[R W Burgess]

Linc,

I do my best to let members know what, when, and why I do things. Like you I do not like being in the dark...I'm not a mushroom!

As far as Web Site updates, the recent one was well published throughout the web site. Another attempted upgrade will happen very shortly. Stay tuned!

I'm not aware of lost posts because of web site problems. Some older pictures in threads have disappeared, but sometime these things happen, even though we regret this happening and apologize for this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...discussing differences of opinion, as long as it is done civilly...</div></div>

This is tough! The problem is that the nature of man makes people go overboard whether discussing automobiles, our government or what flavor soda pop someone likes. The more you discuss differences of opinion, the more heated people become, myself included.

Then, we go back and feel like kicking ourselves for acting like idiots, again, myself included.

At any rate, we all do the best we can handling these situations and sometimes even lose sleep over a decision we may have made. The AACA is proud of this web site and trys to keep everyone happy........a thankless job, by the way.

Wayne

[stock_steve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...a thankless job, by the way.

Wayne </div></div>

Thanks Wayne for the job you do--and remarkably keeping your composure (at least outwardly!) the whole time, dealing with the wide range of personalities and "types" of folks who post here.

So, hopefully today you might feel your job is a slight bit less thankless.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Good job, Wayne. You could not give me that job.

Ben

[LINC400]

I agree, you do a good job, and I would not want to do it either Wayne.

As far as differences of opinion, I see no reason why they can't be discussed civilly. Someone can post "What do you think of the new X and Y?" Some will say X, some will say Y, some will like both, some will like neither. I don't see any problem with that. But if someone comes on and says "You are a jerk for liking X". Then they should be sent a warning, maybe their post deleted, and kicked off if they cannot behave responsibly. Locking the topic isn't fair to those that wanted to contribute something useful. And it won't stop the same people from spouting off again the next time a similar or even not so similar topic comes up.

The Big 2 (3) bailout situation has come up several times. No political discussion should be allowed here. However, since it is a government bailout, it is really not possible to discuss it without any politics being mentioned. But it should be kept to a minimum. It should not be a soapbox for someone to shove their political views down everyone else's throat. The bailout situation is a valid topic. Nothing like this has happened before. And people should be allowed to discuss it. On other forums, it gets discussed without topics being locked. So I don't see why people cannot discuss it civilly and responsibly here.

[MCHinson]

See Wayne, It is not quite totally thankless.

THANKS WAYNE!

[stock_steve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, you do a good job, and I would not want to do it either Wayne.

As far as differences of opinion, I see no reason why they can't be discussed civilly. Someone can post "What do you think of the new X and Y?" Some will say X, some will say Y, some will like both, some will like neither. I don't see any problem with that. But if someone comes on and says "You are a jerk for liking X". Then they should be sent a warning, maybe their post deleted, and kicked off if they cannot behave responsibly. Locking the topic isn't fair to those that wanted to contribute something useful. And it won't stop the same people from spouting off again the next time a similar or even not so similar topic comes up.

The Big 2 (3) bailout situation has come up several times. No political discussion should be allowed here. However, since it is a government bailout, it is really not possible to discuss it without any politics being mentioned. But it should be kept to a minimum. It should not be a soapbox for someone to shove their political views down everyone else's throat. The bailout situation is a valid topic. Nothing like this has happened before. And people should be allowed to discuss it. On other forums, it gets discussed without topics being locked. So I don't see why people cannot discuss it civilly and responsibly here. </div></div>

Double-dittos to everything you said also, Linc!

[Peter Gariepy]

Linc400,

You bring up 4 issues:

1. Locked topics. Typically they are locked for a reason. To "pre-annouce" that we will lock a topic isnt realistic.

2. Site maintenance. It is pre-announced unless there is a technical reason to take it down immediately.

3. Moderating. (SIGH). "conduct themselves responsibly enough to have civil discussions". That I cant answer. I suspect your question is rhetorical?

4. Off topic subject. We (Wayne, myself and other moderators) deal with this daily. This is a car forum. We are here to talk cars. Yes, we do let the subject get off topic occasionally, but when it goes to far off (politics, religion, etc.) then we have to moderator. Just the nature of the beast.

Peter

[keiser31]

Not that you are talking about me in particular or that I am aware of, but if I have ever offended anyone politically or personally or any other way, I apologize and will do better.

[Guest simplyconnected]

Peter Gariepy, nobody is perfect. I don't know you but we are all truly blessed for having this site (many went through withdrawals when it was down for one short week), and I am VERY pleased by your moderation skills.

It's damn hard keeping us old folks from speaking our real thoughts, but we do know cars. I appreciate the opportunity to talk 'cars' and help fellow restorers in our labor of love. I also appreciate you keeping posts on topic, even though some of my posts were deleted. Truth is, they should have been and you did the right thing. Now, don't lose any more sleep at night over a few words. God Bless the AACA and all her members.

Dave Dare

[LINC400]

Not once or twice, but about 5 times I have been typing a long post sometimes with facts all researched and typed out, only to hit submit, and be told the topic is locked. So it would be nice to know BEFORE typing all this stuff out that the topic was locked.

And again, locking the topic only prevents those that might have something useful to say from being able to contribute. It does not stop those that caused it to be locked from doing the same in other posts.

Easier said by us than done by those actually doing the moderating, which we do appreciate. But having it happen yet again today aggravated me enough to make this post about locked topics.

The same thing happened when the site went down for maintenence. Read some posts, typed a long reply, hit submit, and was told the site was down. I don't recall seeing anything about that, but I guess I must have missed it. I don't read everything, only the topics of interest to me.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ........a thankless job, by the way.

Wayne </div></div>

Not thankless, just maybe taken too much for granted.

Without you and the other moderators these forums would not be the wonderful places to visit that they are.

Thank you.

[Guest Skyking]

Wayne and Peter, thanks for doing a great job! It is appreciated.

[Oxnard Montalvo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shop Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ........a thankless job, by the way.

Wayne </div></div>

Not thankless, just maybe taken too much for granted.

Without you and the other moderators these forums would not be the wonderful places to visit that they are.

Thank you. </div></div>

Susan, you're too nice.

Don't encourage them, it only makes them all warm and cuddly inside, and we can't have that. It'll make them soft.

A Moderator's lot is a lonely one...

VIVA LA M.C.!

[stock_steve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keiser31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that you are talking about me in particular or that I am aware of, but if I have ever offended anyone politically or personally or any other way, I apologize and will do better. </div></div>

With the eye toward avoiding more "junk mail" showing up in my PM in-basket I won't say anything more about my subject line--except to say that, in my opinion, you have nothing to worry about, keiser31--and no apologies are necessary.

[keiser31]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stock_steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: keiser31</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that you are talking about me in particular or that I am aware of, but if I have ever offended anyone politically or personally or any other way, I apologize and will do better. </div></div>

With the eye toward avoiding more "junk mail" showing up in my PM in-basket I won't say anything more about my subject line--except to say that, in my opinion, you have nothing to worry about, keiser31--and no apologies are necessary.</div></div>

Good to know....THANKS!

[MCHinson]

If you find that you are often trying to reply to a locked topic, you might want to think about it a little while before typing. Sometimes, I start to reply to a topic (sometimes even type a reply) and then think better about it and delete it without posting it.

Even though I rarely use it, One trick to use when typing a lengthy reply, is to type it in a word processing program, then copy it into the reply window. You can then delete it after you know post it and see that you did not lose it.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oxnard Montalvo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Susan, you're too nice.

Don't encourage them, it only makes them all warm and cuddly inside, and we can't have that. It'll make them soft.

A Moderator's lot is a lonely one...

VIVA LA M.C.! </div></div>

Hey Ox, isn't that how we get 'em off guard so we can sneak up on 'em?

[Dandy Dave]

I wish there was a way to get rid of just the parts that are offensive and be able to keep the good part of the thread going. Cut out the trash and keep it out insread of just locking the whole thread.

Bring Back "Bumper Stickes, An automotive favorite." Cut out the rotten parts and keep it for just "bumper stickers". Dandy Dave!

[Barry Wolk]

How about starting a thread for "humorous" or clever bumper stickers, keeping out the politically and religiously offensive crap.

[R W Burgess]

Dave,

That's doable, but very time consuming, plus, by taking out the offensive posts, sometimes the continuity gets lost and the thread is hard to read.

W.

[Reatta Man]

Barry,

THAT comment IS the point! What you call 'crap' others call humorous. No one person gets to decide what is crap for everyone else.

[Barry Wolk]

Whatever.

[Barry Wolk]

This is the AACA's web site. Free speech does not apply, period.

[Bhigdog]

You nailed it, Dave. I know this will be mis-interpreted, but the rap on the AACA that it is "a boring bunch of old, rich, white guys" is off times reflected in the forum........Bob

[Peter Gariepy]

<span style="font-style: italic">"Peter, there really needs to be some common sense regarding censorship here. I find the current policy greatly offensive. If we cannot comment, then our liberties have indeed been taken away."

</span>

There is common sense on how we moderate this forum. This is a car forum, its about cars, anything that doesn't relate to car is deleted. How much more common sense is that?

Let me pose a hypothetical situation:

You are a "doberman" fan, and you run a "doberman" forum. Someone starts demanding they be able to post about "rat terriers". Starts throwing around words like "censorship" and "liberties being taken away".

Don't you as a doberman fan and forum owner have the right to decide what is discussed at your forum?

[Guest windjamer]

WOW!! Dave,Peter the weapons shall be snowballs at forty feet. the time ,high noon July 4th. the place New Orleans Lousiana. Dave I will be your second.

[Barry Wolk]

You could always start your own web site and talk about whatever you want. It would be your site and you could run it the way you see fit. That, to me, would be the better solution.

I hope we can agree to disagree. I firmly believe that political statements have no place on an automotive forum that chooses not to have them. It's that's simple.

There are literally thousands of sites where you can go toe to toe with others on political issues. Why bring them up where they are clearly not wanted?

We used to have political and social fighting at another web site I frequent. The Administrator set of a separate section called the "War Room". Everyone could say whatever they wanted on hot-button issues. Catch was that you had to ask for access to this area. Once granted, you could go there as often as you'd like. The only rule was that the discussions could not leak out into the general forum.

Initially, there was a flurry of poking the stick in the beehive, but in short order the War Room went silent. Giving the forum members a place to vent seems to have eliminated 99% of the rancor. Maybe that's what could work here.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe that's what could work here. </div></div>

It was tried.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The only rule was that the discussions could not leak out into the general forum.</div></div>

This was the catch.

There are some people on this forum who look for adversaries, and then stretch the limits of those other's words to invoke their own rancor and inflate their own standing (with themselves and/or a few disciples). Often politics is merely the cover for a need to prevail in a self-defined fountain of profundity. Having this no-holds-barred kind of exchange outlet in <span style="font-style: italic">Rants & Raves</span> simply sowed the seeds for this kind vengence in postings on some (usually vaguely) car-related subject.

We are members of a hobby that values individuality. For many of us the lyrics of Gary Numan's song <span style="font-style: italic">Cars</span> holds no irony. This excercise will perpetually be a herding of cats, some of them easily provoked.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here in my car

I feel safest of all

I can lock all my doors

It's the only way to live

In cars

Here in my car

I can only receive

I can listen to you

It keeps me stable for days

In cars

Here in my car

Where the image breaks down

Will you visit me please?

If I open my door

In cars

Here in my car

I know I've started to think

About leaving tonight

Although nothing seems right

In cars

</div></div>

[Peter Gariepy]

Dave,

Yes, this is the AACA forum, and the club makes the rules. As an AACA member you are free to contact the AACA Board of Directors if you feel this forum needs to be open to non-auto related topics or if you feel that it could be moderated better.

Peter

[Bill Stoneberg]

It was tried and drove a lot of people away that were some of the original members of this forum.

It got to the point where I wouldn't come on and comment because of the rancor that some of the comments/members created. I, for one, am glad the rants and raves went away and I like it being a non-political forum.

I come here to read car related information and even this thread is making me mad.

Why argue about it ? As my Daddy used to say "My house, my rules if you dont like it go someplace where you do".

[Peter Gariepy]

(Thanks Bill)

[Shop Rat]

Dave, They tried and tried to keep the <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Rants and Raves/Misc. Chat </span></span>going for us so that we could talk about non-antique auto related subjects.

It was a lost cause on too many people. They could not keep it civil, they couldn't keep the jokes clean, they couldn't stop attacking others, etc. So all of us that could folllow the rules lost out.

I for one have no problem with the moderators doing their job. I do think it is sad that some people here just can't seem to follow the simple rules put down. This is the AACA's house and just like when you visit someone you go by their rules, we should have respect for the rules here and follow them.

It has been suggested before, why doesn't someone here set up a message board where they can invite people here to go there and discuss whatever they want to in any way they want to?

[Bhigdog]

Pete, Bill, Dave, et. al. Do you all realize that this ongoing thread is both political and auto related. That everyone has been mostly civil? That it's been both informative and entertaining? That's it's done no harm at all by being political?

So it is possible to moderate without a knee jerk delete reaction to any percieved "political" content..............Bob

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peter Gariepy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave,

Yes, this is the AACA forum, and the club makes the rules. As an AACA member you are free to contact the AACA Board of Directors if you feel this forum needs to be open to non-auto related topics or if you feel that it could be moderated better.

Peter </div></div>

Not at all, Pete. Read my post again. I was arguing <span style="text-decoration: underline">against</span> opening the forum again to non-auto topics.

[Shop Rat]

I think he meant the other Dave on here. But he linked it off of Barry's post.

[Dave@Moon]

Oh.

[sambarn]

Ben Franklin said It is better to keep one's mouth shut and allow others to think him stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. I'm heading to the garage to polish something and grumble about everything that bothers me to the one object that never tells me to be quiet and allow you all to contemplate my ignorance.

[Guest Johnpaul Ragusa]

I belong to one other forum here in cyberspace and the rules are shockingly similar. Very different crowd of people (It's a site for collecting Star Wars figures, no jokes please) but conversations break down into religion, politics, etc.

My 2 cents is to agree to leave it out. Why? Becuase the minute it becomes an arbitray decision then the moderators will be picking and choosing what to leave and what to leave alone. Within about 1 second of that happening people will complain that the modes views (political or religious) sway what they choose not to remove. Better to leave it out completely then put the moderators into bad situations. It's a tough enough gig as it is and I assume they do it for free (if so, go ahead and double your salary) so my hats off to them.

I still consider myself a new guy but I have seen plenty of subjects go way off topic and the moderators have been pretty spot on in mitigating things that may otherwise get out of hand.

This should be about cars only and not about politics or religion, plain and simple.

[LINC400]

If everyone thought the 1955 X was the best car ever made with no differences of opinion, posts here would be very boring. People should be allowed to express different opinions as long as it is kept civil.

However, this is a forum about cars, and as such, cars are what should discussed, not religion, dogs, or especially politics. Some topics, such as GM and Chrysler bailouts, and cash for clunkers, obviously have politics as part of the topics, and so politics cannot be left out entirely, but it should not be a place to bash Bush or Obama, or Democrats or Republicans.

Other forums sometimes have a place for off-topic discussions. But really, if you want to discuss politics, or religion or dogs, why not just go to a forum with that focus. There you can rant or post all you want about those subjects. And you can come back here when you want to discuss cars. I belong to other forums and don't discuss antique cars there, and I don't discuss the other topics here. It works out just fine.