Opinion on "retroactive options"?

[Big Beat]

What's your opinion on adding a "retroactive option" that is correct for the model year, but not original to the specific car?

For example, my car, a 100% original and totally stock '79 Chevy, has an AM radio. I can easily find a Delco AM/FM/cassette radio from that era and retrofit it. The same kind of radio that the original owner could have ordered, but didn't. And it would look just fine in its place, and no one would know. But I myself will know, and it will grate on me. Because then my all original car will not really be all original anymore, the dash has now been opened up and messed with, so why not just go the whole hog and put in a brand new CD changer, it's just as bad...

Or, let's say, finding and upgrading to a fancier set of "rally" rims, optional when new but still not original to THIS car? A car is only original once and all that. I know it's a minor point, but what do you folks think?

[Bob Kinker]

It's your car. DO IT. These small changes will make the more user friendly for you!

[joe_padavano]

If you have a fully documented car with build sheet, etc. then this clearly detracts from value. On the other hand, if the car is not documented that way, have at it. Keep in mind that many of these options could have been dealer added after delivery and there were even dealer installation packages available for things like stereo or cruise control installation. The wheels are a no-brainer, since they are easy to swap back and forth if you really car. Most owners of fully restored muscle cars have a set of original wheels with their factory correct bias ply tires for shows and a set of modern radials on mags for driving.

[Peter Gariepy]

Original build sheets do tell you what came with THAT car. Few cars have them so its really not an issue there. No do most judging systems take that into account. AACA judging does not mark up for additional accessories. Only down if they are wrong for the year/make/model. (not the specific car).

I'm with Bob Kinker. DO IT!... or not, its your car and you get to decide! If you think extras will distract from its value to you, the most definitely dont add them.

[CarlLaFong]

There is a point when it is taken too far. We have all been to shows and seen the cars with every conceivable option, looking like a refugee from the Whitney catalog. I don't recall seeing cars like this when they were new. Kids today think back then all cars had tissue dispensers, traffic light finders, umbrella holders and the like. More often than not, they did not

[1937hd45]

I don't know, have you messed with the original air in the tires? The 1979 Chevy is a rare vehicle, I haven't seen one this week. If it has tinted windows maybe the radio upgrade won't be noticed, you do risk a fire messing with wires under the dash. Maybe one of those Ipod deals the kids have is the way to go.

[Barry Wolk]

In Lincoln and Continental Owners Club judging all options must be factory or dealer installed. No after-market. You can repaint the car any factory color for that year.

Certain cars do have factory records. I have a copy of the Production Order for my '56 Continental Mark II, showing all the original factory options. I also have the Kardex for my '55 Porsche. They've kept meticulous records.

Like everyone else has said, though, it's you're car. You should do with it what you want. However, the added value of untouched dash wiring wouldn't do much for me as a buyer.

I would suggest that you make the car comfortable for your use and modify it whatever way you can without ruining the "originality" of it. Save all the old parts should you feel guilty and want to return it to the state you found it in.

The important part is to take it down off that pedestal and use it. That's what they were meant for. Enjoy your car!

[mrpushbutton]

I don't have any problem doing this using options from that year, for that car. My 1963 Chevy II came from the factory with a radio delete plate, I added the correct period radio, even down to the manual tune model (no pushbutton presets--oh the irony!)

But, as a previous poster wisely admonished, know when to stop. we had a guy in a local club who took a good basic car, well restored and "thew the book at it"--everyting he fastened on was an original factory accessory, but made the car horrid in the sheer volume of stuff hung on.

[Big Beat]

Thanks for the welcome

The car is certainly "off the pedestal". It is driven and enjoyed. I am also not averse to functional upgrades, for example I converted the A/C to the modern refrigerant, and I'm afraid the air in the tires is no longer original either. Or the tires themselves. And while well-worn '79 Montes in black primer and a zillion tacky low-rider type add-ons are indeed a dime a dozen, a mint original with only 33K miles on it is indeed a rarity. It may not be as appreciated as a 30's or 50's car is today, but it will be just as "classic" in a few more years, so don't knock it.

I have owned older cars in the past, including a '58 Chevy and a '69 Pontiac. Both required all sorts of repairs, from engine work to frame welding to sheet metal replacement, and in such situations worrying about things like the original radio was a moot point. But owning a car that has been completely unmolested, offers a slightly different perspective, hence the question.

[Rusty_OToole]

Generally speaking original accessories even contemporary add ons do not detract from a car. Especially if they can easily be changed back. In other words keep the original radio just in case.

There is nothing wrong with this. However it is up to you, if it would not feel right to you then don't do it.

[Terry Bond]

Don't worry about it, your car isn't orignal anymore anyway. Chances are the first time some previous owner needed something fixed, it was done without any consideration to keeping it "original."

Use the better radio and enjoy. It could have come that way originally.

Terry

[Big Beat]

Gotcha. Now, just for the sake of argument, what if it wasn't a '79 Chevy but rather some Packard or Maxwell or a Wills St. Claire or something? Would adding "retroactive options" make a difference then?

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big Beat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gotcha. Now, just for the sake of argument, what if it wasn't a '79 Chevy but rather some Packard or Maxwell or a Wills St. Claire or something? Would adding "retroactive options" make a difference then? </div></div>

If anyone really wants my opinion on that please send me a PM.

[Peter Gariepy]

If retroactive means "original options" then sure, whether it's a 79 chevy or a packard or maxwell or wills st claire.

If retroactive mean "aftermarket parts" then I'd say no.

Peter

[Dave@Moon]

To a large extent I doubt anyone really cares if authentic options are added to almost any car. The show field at any AACA or other event in reality looks nothing like the typical street scenes of yesteryear. As a "for instance", look at any 1940s street scene photograph and see if you can find any whitewall tires. They practically didn't exist at the time. Never the less today I doubt one in ten restored 1940s cars use blackwall tires.

However the point about overdressing a car is important. A 1957 Ford Sunliner convertible with every bell and whistle is a conceivable vehicle of the time. However I have seen absolute stripper 1957 Ford Customs decked out with options no bottom line fleet car would've ever been ordered with (continental kit, wire wheels, tissue box, fender skirts, etc.).

Also if you have an untouched original car capable of competing in the HPOF class it would be a waste to doll it up and ruin a rare authentic relic of the age. If you're restoring a car out of scratch, then it's your creation anyway so you might as well make what you want.

[LINC400]

I doubt that being an all original documented car will add much value to a 1979 Chevy. I had an all original documented 1979 Lincoln Mark V, and that added basically zero to its value. The only time a '77-79 Lincoln increased in value being all original and fully documented was when it had less than 10,000 miles on it.

With that in mind, I added a couple of the very few options my car was not ordered with. No one had any idea that they were not on the car from the factory, and I enjoyed them. No one ever pointed out that those options were not on the original window sticker. In fact I am very knowledgeable on Mark V's, and can tell immediately if something is not correct on one. But the only way to know if a factory option was not on your specific car originally, is to sit and examine the window sticker or build sheet line by line. No one is going to do that. And as others have said, keep the original stuff if you ever want to change back.

I also know of a guy who painted his '69 Imperial with black vinyl top and black interior the same repulsive shade of pea green. With that color top and interior, it could have been painted any 1969 Imperial color. He didn't like the color, but thought he shouldn't change it because it was the original color. I am 100% against customizing any car. But why live with a cheap radio or ugly color when the car did not have to be that way. It is only that way because the original owner was cheap or had bad taste.

[rocketraider]

Hehe- back then, Mopars and Pontiacs looked normal in that shade of green! Sometimes I think half of 67-69 Pontiac production was painted Verdoro Green.

But Pontiacs wore it well. I owned a 67 Firebird 400 in Verdoro Green with black vinyl roof and interior, and it was a pretty sharp ride.

[Barry Wolk]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But yes, it's real strange that some folks feel like a varmint has more right to illegally inhabit and destroy your property than you have to prevent it from doing it."</div></div>

Nice sig Glenn,

You don't know when to let it go, do you?

[Guest DaveCorbin]

How would anyone classify what we call today a recall campaign? Today, they're mandated and controlled. Back years ago, Buick did them if you complained. There were 52 field fixes issued between 1939 and 1942 applicable to 1939 Roadmasters. I documented them all and did them to my car.

Is that "non-original"? They're all "Factory engineered".

Regards, Dave Corbin

[1937hd45]

Interesting Dave, If they are a visable change that looks different from a stock in the showroom car AACA would deduct points on the show field. But the judges would have to be into Buicks as heavily as you are to spot the changes.

[Peter Gariepy]

1937hd45,

I disagree. If an AACA judge isnt "into Buicks as heavily as you are to spot the changes" they are LESS apt to deduct points, not more.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peter Gariepy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1937hd45,

I disagree. If an AACA judge isnt "into Buicks as heavily as you are to spot the changes" they are LESS apt to deduct points, not more. </div></div>

AACA members need to know that if I mention the sky is blue on a sunny day PeterG will disagree. I stand by my original reply, I can't help those than misunderstand.

[Peter Gariepy]

1937hd45,

Like you I have a right to my opinion. I stand behind the fairness and accuracy of the AACA judging system.

How can I misunderstand you if you dont share your opinions? This is a forum were people discuss things out in the open, not in private messages. 1937hd45: "If anyone really wants my opinion on that please send me a PM." Instead of asking others to private message you for your opinion why not share them with everyone?

If you have an issue with the AACA judging system then share them with everyone.

Peter

[Matt Harwood]

Aren't you guys saying the same thing? i.e. if the judge doesn't know as much about Buicks as the owner, he probably won't notice the things that aren't 100% authentic?

[Peter Gariepy]

Matt,

I'm saying that because a judge can't know every minute detail of every car ever made (in this case a Buick) any subtle differences will go unnoticed and therefore not marked off. Even if the visible change is noticed it will not automatically be deducted. The team caption will question the car owner on the change's authenticity.

He is saying the opposite (Or at least that is my interpretation of what he is saying.). "If they are a visible change that looks different from a stock in the showroom car AACA would deduct points on the show field. "

Peter

[Matt Harwood]

Time-out.

No, I'm afraid it's true. The two of you are in complete agreement on this subject. You boys are just going to have to find something else to fight over...

The way I read both statements is that if there are non-authentic changes and the AACA judges catch them, there will be a deduction (unless the owner can provide documentation). HOWEVER, in cases like the "recalls" Dave mentioned, it would require a Buick expert (i.e. someone heavily into Buicks) to even notice them in the first place. Since the judges are not experts on each car, they are less likely to notice these details and therefore<span style="font-weight: bold"> "LESS apt to deduct points."</span>

This is, in fact, how it operates, yes?

Bob, do I read you right? Peter, you too?

OK, time-in. You may now shake hands and return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Peter Gariepy]

"This is, in fact, how it operates, yes?"

Yup... agreed!

You are reading me right.

Non-authentic - BAD

Original - GOOD

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Peter:

You make the point correctly about the owner having to document things questioned by the judges. I expect that same thing to happen when my car is BCA judged, as the BCA has the same rule.

My friends who like my detailed answers on Buicks won't be surprised (and our judges aren't either anymore) to see my copies of the Buick field fix information in what I refer to as my "Documentation Book" for the 1939 Roadmaster which now has well over 150 pages in it.

I don't lose any arguments over those 52 field fixes or anything else on the car.

I posted my original comment to see people's opinions on things done to the car after it was built.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[Guest DaveCorbin]

For information of all:

Have you ever paraded a 1939 Buick on the 4th of July, especially a car with the big 320 engine? Without the field fixes, fuddgettabuodit !! If it's over 50 degress F, you need those fixes. The first 7 get the car to "paradable" at 70F. The next 3 will get it to 80F. It's the two unauthorized ones that are buried in the car that get it parade civilized on a hot day.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[DBT]

Dave,

You've spiked my interest with your comments about field fixes and hot days.

I'm running a '38 90L in Singapore where most of the day temperatures get upto 90-98 deg F. Its all okay so long as you are moving but standing, especially in heavy traffic can be tricky. I know the 39 had peculiar problems with its grill but are you aware of any hot weather field fixes for the 38 model? Might come in handy.

Regards

[Guest DaveCorbin]

Dear Dave:

I would think the same ones used on a 1939 Roadmaster would work and help on a 1938. Several are quite simple and easily done. The change to a 1940 Super pump pulley increases pump speed about 10%. The adding of about 10 degrees of "twist" or pitch by very carefully bending the fan blades moves more air at low speed. The addition of a top pad between the top of the radiator and the underside of the hood diminishes air flow past the radiator. I used a piece of old fashioned hemp padding from under a rug about 5 inches wide and 30 inches long, folded in half the long way, for my installation. Looks factory, matches what Buick recommended, and works. Be sure all the baffles along the frame out to the engine on both sides are ON the car. This is counter-intuitive, but necessary.

Regards, Dave Corbin

[TG57Roadmaster]

The <span style="font-style: italic">Roadmistress</span> always ran hot, in <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> weather. The temp gauge needle had been bent back, per the service bulletin, but that factory-authorized fix didn't make her run any cooler. I took the radiator to a shop that added a third row of fins. No problems since, and rest assured, no one would know. Until now. No one should care, either.

Making the rounds of the January auctions, it was nigh on to impossible to find <span style="font-style: italic">any</span> '50's Mopar without the dreaded KH wire wheels. They were like Tribbles, seen on everything from K.T. Keller-era high-hat 4-door sedans to price-leader 2-door wagons. I guess it's a value-added thing, since the cars were for sale. Still no less ridiculous, in my opinion.

It's refreshing to see a strippo car these days when we're all one click away from adding that special, hard to find gewgaw to baby's bag o' goodies.

My '55 Bookmobile came from the Atlanta assembly plant bare-boned, radio-delete plate and all. It will stay that way, 'cause I want it to. But if I still had my ex-daily driver '71 Dart Swinger ("Goldie"), you bet I'd have put the rare AM-FM in it. The car had to go (rust, prior wreck damage), but I still have the radio, just need to find a better Swinger to put it in.

Hand-wringing over easily reversible upgrades seems unwarranted, especially if they're dealer or factory- authorized.

Except, maybe, for those nasty wire wheels...

TG