wayne sheldon

My pleasure. I like to help if I can.

After "nickel era" (or "nickel age"), it gets a bit more complicated. In the first place, there is more crossover between classifications. Late nickel age has always crossed over with the great Classics era a little bit. Note the big "C" in "Classic era". There has been a battle over the use of the word "classic" in describing automobiles for a very long time. The "Classic Car Club of America" has tried to maintain a definition that fits their perspective, that of an era when wealthy people often had either custom built elegant automobiles or low production extremely high quality automobiles. The CCCA originally defined the era as beginning about 1925, and with one exception ending with the second world war (1942). Battles within the club eventually extended the era earlier to 1915, and added many more exceptions to marques up to 1948. In addition to that "era", the automobile models were individually valued for their rarity and quality of construction. Common production cars were NOT allowed to be considered a "Classic". The problem was, that the CCCA did not own the word "classic". So, millions of people around the world applied the word "classic" to millions of common cars. The CCCA tried to fight it, but like "trying to turn the tide with a tea cup"? It was a battle they could not win. So, many people do still adhere to the CCCA definition, while millions more do not. A person, regardless of their personal views on that issue, really needs to be clear in conversation or writing if they are using the CCCA version (sometimes but not always accepted as the "big C Classics"?), or referring to the millions of other cars which may or may not deserve the distinction. Personally, I rarely use the word "classic" for anything but the CCCA Classics, or my preferred music genre. And when discussing the CCCA classics, I usually include the "CCCA" as a clarification for whatever I am saying. I do not always capitalize the letter "C", but often do. Most automobiles after the "nickel age" and before the second world war are generally classified as "prewar" cars. The term isn't ideal, because there are several major wars during that 20th century, and the term doesn't specify which war, or for how long before that war should be included. Regardless, the "prewar" term is widely accepted as being before the second world war and after the nickel age. Wartime vehicles are sort of their own thing, with devoted hobbyists preserving the pieces that interest them. Postwar gets really difficult. A lot of hobbyists aren't happy with the blanket "twenty-five years and older" rule. When that was started about fifty years ago, it seemed to make sense to a lot of people. Today? Cars last longer, look more alike, and some people want to change the rule, but have no idea what to change it to. A lot of people refer to the cars of the late 1940s, mostly continuations of the 1942models, along with a few slow steps into newer models and the return to "normalcy", simply as "postwar" cars. Muscle cars again like the CCCA Classics were somewhat an "era", as well as needing a definition of what is or is not a "muscle car". The muscle car era according to many hobbyists began about the mid 1950s, and according to some, ended with the "oil crisis" of the mid to late 1970s. Others insist that several automakers continued building some true muscle cars through the 1980s. A lot of people have a special liking for cars of the 1950s. Cars of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, are often also simply referred to by their decades or specific marques or model types. I hope some of that is helpful.

Bob i V, I second joining the HCCA! The discounted new member price for one year should hopelessly hook you onto the early automobiles! Having read so many of your comments, replies, and threads on this forum over the past two years, I suspect you will find so much fascinating history to read about and interesting automobiles that you'll stick around for a long time! While many discussions about the costs involved in the big money high end brass era cars may be frightening (especially for those of us with very limited resources?), There are many decent smaller size brass era cars available for between $10,000 and $20,000 these days. And they don't need big expensive tow vehicles and trailers. I currently use a 2005 Ford Expedition to pull my open trailer. The 2001 Expedition served me very well for a dozen years, and before that I had a 1988 Chevy 3/4 ton Suburban. None of those vehicles was very expensive, or required outrageous repair costs, and all of those vehicles served me very well. A person can have just as much fun on a HCCA tour with a brass model T as with an Oldsmobile Limited! Small Buicks, Overlands, or even a two cylinder Maxwell can be even more fun! (The two cylinder crowd is even even MORE fun!) Let the "big "C" Classics crowd keep their Duesenbergs! Give me a two cylinder Maxwell or Reo any day!

Say WHAT? Sorry, but? Literally hundreds (thousands?) of makes and models of cars for twenty years before that had all the gauges in the center of the dash! Barely a few years before this prototype, moving the gauges to in front of the driver where he could better see them without turning his head aside was considered by many people to be a great styling advancement! I find myself wondering what your source of information (apparently very flawed?) was?

No hard and fast rules. Generally, in the USA, "Brass Era" is as defined by the Horseless Carriage Club of America. The basic simple rule is any automobile "manufactured" before January of 1916. Sort of a back-handed way of saying "pre '15". A lot of people do not agree with that, they either want to cut it back to cars that actually have brass trim, but in the real world, that doesn't really work (do you want to tell a guy with a beautiful 1913 Buick that he doesn't belong because his car has no brass to polish? But some fellow with a 1916 Ford has a car that had a bright brass radiator when it was new!). Other people want to become more inclusive, extend the qualifying cars a few years, or even a decade or two. A lot of people including I do not want that because the stated purpose of the HCCA is to be a club and advocate for "the earliest cars"! Frankly, the "earliest cars" are already left behind too much in this country (England, the colonies, and Europe have a lot more activities every year for the really early cars than does the USA!). Extending through the late 1910s or worse the 1920s would leave the early cars even further behind. Nickel era is more difficult to define. Actually, many pre1905 automobiles used nickel plating extensively. And that includes many steam and electric automobiles as well as gasoline engines. Most "nickel era groups seem to like 1913 as a beginning of the nickel era. The truth is, that a lot of cars were switching to nickel plating a bit earlier, even as early as 1910, and, Ford was NOT the only one to continue brass through 1915 or later! However, most people seem to be happy with the nickel age beginning about 1913. The end of the nickel era is a bit more contentious. Hardliners like to cut it off between 1927 or 1928. Those were for most automakers the last years for significant amounts of nickel plating, at least on the outside of the car. Other people, because the cars themselves didn't change a whole lot for those next few years, want to end the nickel era at about 1932 or 1933. Some people even argue in favor for a few more years later. This 1922 Dodge roadster would be considered a Nickel Era car, and a nice one at that! The early 1920s Dodge automobiles are somewhat larger than a model T Ford, a bit more powerful, but not really faster than a T. They are good cars, generally reliable, a well supported national club, and some local or regional groups if you happen to live in the right area (I doubt that there would be a club specially for early Dodge in Brazil!). There are a few collector car parts suppliers that specialize in four cylinder Dodge Brothers cars and parts.

Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd! Point well made Jim. Thank you.

Not sure, but I might know who used to own this car? If it truly is running and drivable? And given the area it is in now, I think I saw this car about forty years ago! I knew his family, and he drove this car (if it is in fact the same car?) on club tours a lot!

Wow, that is neat! Also the way overused word "rare" would apply here! In my over fifty years in this hobby, with a passion for brass era and 1920s automobiles, I have only seen a handful of these in all those years. Also, I have for over fifty years closely studied era photographs. These do occasionally show up in era photographs, but not often! I wish I could afford it, but I cannot. It would look great on anybody's display shelf! Or on any late nickel era fine car! That would be a hit at any tour with the nickel era group I hang around with! If I ever have time to finish restoring my 1927 Paige 6-45 sedan? That would be perfect on it. The wreath around the top of this is an almost perfect match to the original Paige radiator cap! Someone hopefully will get and appreciate a fine original accessory!

First, Buick did not build a straight eight until the 1930s. Second, I don't think it looks like a Buick hubcap at all. It is not a common one. Could be some other car with an eight cylinder engine? Or an after-market replacement that had a symbol resembling a carmaker's hubcap. Even in those days, after-market manufacturers had to avoid trademark infringements. I think I have seen ones like that before, so I suspect it is likely original to some marque, I just have no clue what. The style of the hubcap suggests that it is most likely mid to near late 1920s. Accurate measurements of size and thread counts would help identify what it might fit.

I know a collector, and his family, they have been good friends for a really long time. I sometimes joke that I have known them since before they became really wealthy and only had four or five common antique automobiles (model Ts, a 1925 Chevrolet). Good people, believe me, they earned their success! Their personal collection numbers near two hundred cars now, many incredible brass era and major Classics, high end restorations (numerous Pierce Arrow, Stutz, and so many cars most of us can only dream about!)! That total count includes about a hundred postwar sports cars for those that like those. About forty years ago, I was visiting them (and their collection), and they were telling me about the car they had just bought and were expecting delivered in about a week. Another friend at the time asked how many more they were going to get? They said just a couple more, they would stop at thirty-five cars. I remember quietly smiling to myself. I knew better.

Come on man! You have got to get that thing on the road! I know, life gets in the way. What a great automobile!

Great story, I love it! I used to haggle a little bit over swap meet prices. As a seller, it would depend on whether the item for sale was something I didn't want to keep, or something I didn't really want to sell, but for the right price I could put the money to better use. I ended up selling several things for what I thought was top dollar that I really wanted to use. Something I really did not want to keep? Might go like "Asking fifteen dollars, would you take ten?" "Make it eight and you have a deal!" As a buyer, I never really liked haggling. Some sellers might ask for offers, and I might oblige. Other times, since I was always on a tight budget, for something I really wanted (maybe even sort of needed?), I might try to talk the price down a bit. But that was more out of necessity than wanting to "play the game". Otherwise, I ask prices, and usually either buy or just walk on. If I don't find too much other stuff I need or really want, I may go back a bit later if I have enough money left. It has been a long time since I took anything to sell. A few times I have taken one or two valuable items to maybe work out a trade for something I needed, but never made a deal that way. Most of the stuff I should try to get rid of isn't really worth enough to be worth the trouble to take.

And yours to me looks like a much better car all around!

Merci Beaucoup!

Looks like a reasonable project to me, for someone that wants and can afford to restore a rare early truck. I used to want one, but never quite made it happen. At this point in my life, I do not need nor can I afford such a project. But I like the possibilities.

Walt G should love this one! Wow, the architecture, the street lamps. What an incredible street scene! Thank you John E G.

In California, a driver's side outside mirror is the one "safety requirement" that is SPECIFICALLY excepted from the "grandfather clause". It is legally required for any year car whether one was available originally or not. Sometimes a bit of a problem on open wheel speedsters or other early cars with no significant body to mount a mirror onto. The daily reality however, is that the Highway Patrol usually will not bother us about that lack of a mirror. I have made an effort to mount a mirror on many of my cars, for safety's sake. However, on a few, I have driven literally thousands of miles without any mounted mirror, and so far not received a ticket for it. I have been questioned about it a couple times, and told to be careful. Of course, every state is different.

Weston-Mott and several other companies manufactured similar axles in a bunch of variations in size, minor and major variations in shape, and strengths, for literally hundreds of makes, models, and across several years even for individual variations. The Fuller I used to have had Mott axles front and rear. The rear was only slightly different than what Buick used for a couple years. The front was identical to the front axles for a couple models of Buick for about three years. My Fuller was a bit different from this axle, different Buick models. Such an axle could likely be from a Buick, some model or another, or it could have been from a dozen similar size cars of the era. Someone very familiar with Buicks of those years might be able to pinpoint the models and years it would be correct for (or not?). In many cases, people putting together lesser marques simply have to use something of appropriate era close to correct fit and size. Numerous measurements matter. Approximate track width (hub variations can affect that!). The spacing and sizes of the spring mounts is very important! The tube axle size diameter, weight (strength?) are important. Smaller cars often used lighter tubing. That axle could work very well for a lot of cars!

Thank you Bob i V for so many excellent photos of wonderful cars! Looks like it was a great showing.

While they are not practical as an "only" antique automobile, due to their limitations (size, speed, hills?), I have always been really attracted to the really early cars. I have had good friends for many years with pre1905 cars, and have known several people that have been on the London to Brighton Run? Fate and family have made it nearly impossible for me to really have or play with such things. Some years back, I did manage to fall into one of the things I really wanted, that being a really early pre-production car. The price was more than I should have paid, but manageable. And when my situation got worse and I had to sell several good cars, I wasn't able to get enough interest in the early project, so I still have it. I still hope my family situation can change while I might have a few good years to work on the projects I have. Fitting together the puzzle pieces of the gasoline carriage is high on my list. It suffered from some bad "restoration" a couple/few decades before I got it, and needs someone dedicated to make it as correctly done as can reasonably be done. Most of the important pieces are there and in surprisingly good condition (I seriously doubt it was ever driven more than a few miles?). Several pieces are missing (including the single valve actuating mechanism), and a few weaknesses in the engine need to be addressed to make it actually drivable.

The "WM CO" most likely stands for "Weston Mott". They made front and rear axles for many automobiles from early on, and became part of the General Motors empire in the mid 1910s. The style of king-pin/spindle mounting is most likely late 1910s or 1920s. Almost everything had the fork on the axle before 1920.

In 1905, a hundred inch wheelbase was a fairly large car! That is right about the time that cars started getting bigger quickly. I don't offhand recall the wheelbase measurement, but a good friend has a 1906 Locomobile, one of the largest American cars manufactured that year. It isn't much over a hundred inches. The comparable 1907 model was a few inches longer. Several European automobiles were quite large by 1904. There are a couple Benz and big Renault automobiles that run in the pre 1905 London to Brighton Rally many years. Their wheelbases are well over a hundred inches. Most American built cars before 1904 had wheelbases a little over ninety inches or less. My circa 1900 gasoline carriage has a wheelbase of sixty inches!

At one-tenth the price this would be a tough sell!

I don't like to use hard seats in antique engines unless they are absolutely necessary. I just do not trust them, never did. If I had a reasonable choice? I would never use them in any engine. Unfortunately, a few years ago we bought an older modern used very well cared for, very low mileage used car (just out of warranty). I think the Fates wanted to kick me in the @$$. Of course, the modern aluminum OHV had to have hardened seats in it. The "life expectancy" of the engine was generally said to be 200,000 plus miles, and it had just passed 100,000. Less than 2000 miles later it swallowed a valve and totaled the engine. On low rpm low compression engines, unless severe wear makes hardened seats absolutely necessary, they are really an unnecessary risk. Modern machinists are so busy thinking that they are so much smarter than the people that built these cars originally, that they automatically assume that ALL engines MUST have hardened seats and they set out to change them regardless of whether they need it or not! The valves being worn does not mean the seats need to be replaced. Only a critical examination of the seats can determine whether they can be reground slightly oversize or not. That is my opinion and some of my background for it. Probably offensive to some people. The odds are that your rebuilt head will be fine and give many many years of wonderful service!

About half of that "woodwork" looks like the pattern pieces I sometimes make out of scraps and junk wood to adjust sizing and fitting before making the permanent piece out of good wood (that is the way to do it when you do not have decent pattern pieces to begin with). The finish of the top wood isn't even that good! And I thought I did fast, cheap and dirty work?