wayne sheldon

Thank you rod P for finding and sharing that. It does give a slightly different look at part of the high wheel car.

Earlier today (yesterday?), forum member jeff a posted an interesting (at least to me?) photo on the "Period Photos" long thread. I think some comments needed to be made about it, and room for additional comments also. To that end, I am duplicating his post here so that I and others can make observations and comments. Jeff's original posting. An 1892 Blackie and a 1934 Delage at the 1934 Philadelphia Auto Show. The man with the silver trophy owned both. This was before trailering your car to a meet, and Passport Transport, so I bet both were driven to this Antique Auto Derby. My comments. I need to dig into some of my books for some facts and identifications. In short, and to begin with. The high wheel car is identified as an "1892 Blackie". That identification is likely not correct, but how incorrect is it? Black was an early experimenter, and did manufacture and sell high wheel automobiles for a few years under the "Black" name. Is this one of his cars? The steering wheel is an indication of being somewhat later than 1892. However, how much later, and is the steering wheel original to this car? Current best information credits the Duryea Brothers with building the first drivable gasoline powered automobile in America, in 1893. It is their 1893 automobile that is pictured on decades of the AACA logo. That first Duryea automobile was well recorded as being driven in 1893. Although the design was flawed, it served to prove that an automobile was possible here on this side of the "pond". The Duryea Brothers then reworked their designs, and built their much improved 1895 version, which in turn won the Chicago Times-Herald Thanksgiving day race in 1895. It was snowing, conditions were grueling, most entrants dropped out. Of the few that began the race, only the Duryea and the German Benz (driven by an American) completed the race, with the Duryea soundly beating the Benz. However? There were others working to be the first American gasoline powered internal combustion automobile. Among them? Was Black. Black had a strong claim! Also in 1893, it is very likely Black's first automobile was driven. Black often over the years claimed his first car was driven in 1892. However, best records indicate it wasn't until 1893, and most likely a couple months after the Duryea's first drive. Other better known names to claim being first included Haynes, Apperson, and King, all at some point claiming either 1892 or 1893. Builders and their families and historians fought over "who was first" literally for decades. The Duryea was a favorite early in the debates, however many historians had other favorites. Among the several claimants, believe it or not, it was Black that had one of the more solid claims. His first gasoline car almost certainly was driven within a couple months after the Duryea drive. Did he actually beat them? Maybe? We may never know for sure. Do I believe the pictured car was Black's first car? Not a chance. But I need to dig out a book or two to get a better idea of what it is. Unless someone else can beat me to a proper identification. Might take me awhile.

Yes "AI" is like any tool. Whether it is good or bad depends upon how it is used. A hammer can be used build a home. Or a hammer can be used to bash in your brains. However, repairing an automobile is a lot more complicated than step by step instructions! It requires some amount of experience to have the "feeling" of how things should be put together. It demands good judgement to determine whether a part is good enough to be used or not. How to tighten a bolt enough to stay put but not break it? AI is a "one size fits all" philosophy. Truth is, "one size fits all" almost never fits anyone very well.

I know model Ts pretty well. I know a fair amount about early movies, Roaring '20s music, opera and other classical music (but can't play any musical instrument). But I know very little about guns. Not opposed to them. Support the second amendment. But really cannot have any around due to some "family" issues.

This photo needs some serious discussion. Mostly about the early high wheel automobile. Do you mind if I try to repost this in a separate thread for discussion. Do you have any additional background about the photo or the cars?

Than you ABear for those links. I will try check some of them out a bit later.

I always seem to adapt so naturally to the two wheel brakes myself. I have driven model Ts for many thousands of miles with only two wheel brakes. My model Ts I always made sure the brakes were working at their best, sometimes with after-market outside brakes added onto the rear wheels. I have had two early Studebakers, a 1915 seven passenger six cylinder touring car and a 1925 standard coach, both with two wheel brakes. Both I drove a lot in the years I had them. The biggest real issue with two wheel brakes is that nobody else understands that you may need that extra space you keep ahead of you. Other people tend to take the space you need to keep for yourself. One needs to adjust your driving and pay very close attention to everything around you. Pay special attention to "outs", places you might be able to pull into if someone does something stupid ahead of you. "Outs" change constantly as you drive, and although it may slow you and your slow car down even more, keeping in the right lane most of the time usually allows more "outs". Properly adjusted and maintained, Two wheel brakes are about forty percent as effective as four wheel brakes. That is a number people should be aware of. Properly adjusted and maintained two wheel brakes actually work quite well. The biggest problem with two wheel brake antique automobiles is that most people do not adjust them properly.

Nice looking car in many ways. As mentioned, not the big Marmon we often think of. I have seen several Roosevelts over the years. A bit too new for my preferences, but otherwise a fine smaller mid size car. The Roosevelt was Marmon's version of a "companion" smaller marque to improve profitability in the late 1920s. Sadly, the crash of 1929 so soon after most companion marques were introduced had most of them discontinued after only two to a few years. Marmon dropped the Roosevelt name, and it became this model Marmon.

The NN/NN horse power numbers were an English and European thing. England and some European countries taxed automobiles based upon a theoretical horse power figure which read as one number over the other (don't ask me for the specifics?). The taxation was punitive and made higher horse power cars very expensive to license and use. Those figures were prominently displayed in the model numbers in part so that people could readily see and know whether they could afford to own a given model or not. Horse power figures are at best confusing, and at worst infuriating. There are dozens of different formulas that have been used around the world over the past 150 years. Sometimes a book or advertisement will give some clue to the formula used, like following a number with A.L.A.M. (Association of Licensed Automobile Manufacturers), or some other industry standard. The horse power number without some sort of qualification is virtually meaningless. However, the numbers given as a fractional appearance are generally recognized as the English and European taxation formula, and really don't need any addition qualification or code. In addition to formula calculations (which are generally basic and very incomplete?), horse power can be measured by several methods. Those can range from total produced horse power to actual delivered horse power.

Linus Tremaine should know! He was trained by Jack Passey.

Wow, rough 1930s Hupmobiles seem to be crawling out of the woodwork!

Yes, this one like a lot of others hurts. Some years ago I had to sell several good antique automobiles for "family reasons". Two to three years ago, I thought I was going to be able to buy one good car to replace something of what I had lost. No such luck. Situations have worsened, and right now I should not acquire anything at any price as I may need to move everything I already have to I have no idea where? The good thing is, if that happens and I survive the move, I should be able to get back to working on the project cars I already have. Two of which could be roadworthy in a couple months.

I should have known it would be you! Yes, the even folding windshield with the hinges even with the top of the lower windshield pane as used in 1915 and 1916 continued to be used only about half of 1917 on the new style black radiator shell model Ts. Mid 1917 through 1922 models (USA production, Canadian production changed about 1920) had the hinge pin almost two inches above the lower windshield glass. Even in poor quality era photos, often the even folding hinges can be spotted and identify early 1917s. An additional bit of 1917 windshield minutia. The actual timeline details are not known, and can only be estimated. However, for about a couple of months in mid 1917 model year, windshields used a combination of the earlier style windshield hinges, with the later style cowl mounting method. 1915 into mid 1917 models the lower windshield frame was riveted into the cowl mounting casting. The later 1917 through 1922 (USA) windshield frames were held into the cast brackets by round head slotted machine screws in from the outer sides. That combination of one early detail and one late detail only lasted two to maybe three months in mid 1917 model year. So many interesting minor details in a common model T.

Thank you so very much! I spent at least an hour enjoying your (and others') photos of this years OCF. And I will likely look through them again.

Very nice! Thank you for sharing this. Always nice to hear from you.

Very good and informative writeup! Thank you.

Keep joking! What is life without a silly crack once in awhile? Great photo regardless! Of course, I happen to really like the 1920s clothing styles. And the music! And the cars! And the movies! (Okay, so I am crazy?)

Mitchell automobiles were better than average good cars. Our HCCA regional group some years back had a few of them, at least five as I recall. A couple good friends of mine had Mitchell automobiles. Very unusual for that many to be in one small group. People that have and tour with them love them! Unfortunately, this car is a long ways from drivable and lovable. Pretty much any significant missing parts will have to be made or adapted from some other car. Don't get me wrong? It can be done. I hope this car gets bought and properly restored. However, these days? That is getting less and less likely.

Yeah, "The Cadillac of Cadillacs" is a LaSalle? I don't think so! Some people seem to have a driven need to openly and widely display their ignorance. Nice looking LaSalle however.

Sorry, I sold my Kayaks about seven years ago.

I sure like that car! I wish I could afford it.

You guys are good! Now, tell me what year the car is (hint, the clue is the windshield!).

For whatever it is worth? "Sam" Gurnee (RIP), a past president of the HCCA, had a 1907 Stevens Duryea touring car. I was fortunate to tour alongside it on a few Regional Group tours. Fun to follow, and a good performer for 1907 standards. I have no idea what has become of his car in recent years.

I stand corrected. I don't mind being wrong. It proves my wife is wrong when she claims I refuse to admit it.

wow! Thank you! A lot of wonderful what I call "prewar" cars.